• schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    We are sadistic beasts..Think of the Viking beserkers mentality.. We are all that inside. Why? Because..toughen the f*** up right? The world isn't perfect so you have to LEARN through TRIAL and ERROR... You have to follow some formula.. the Indifference of the Stoics..You have to DEAL...Everything needs maintenance..needs fixing..As @darthbarracuda once stated for his distates of engineering.. everything is one step away from fail.. Always needing support..always needing to rebuild..and then build some more..

    Everything needs to be fixed, maintained, created, synthesized..
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.2k
    Everything needs to be fixed, maintained, created, synthesized..schopenhauer1

    In the process of fixing, cleaning, maintaining we are in effect applying what we have learned along the way, to do it different, to do it better than we did last time.
    There is a street in Illinois called the Eisenhower Expressway and as I live and breath, the road improvements are timed to start again where it just ended. A cycle that carries us further into the future.
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    In the process of fixing, cleaning, maintaining we are in effect applying what we have learned along the way, to do it different, to do it better than we did last time.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Haven't seen much change.. just more refined fixing.
  • Aleksander Kvam
    213
    if it needs so much maintaining then maybe its better to destroy it and start anew.. maybe fixing something is a sign for "it" not to be created strong/good enough.
  • Wallows
    6.3k
    Feels more like a rant than anything that can be addressed.

    Care to expand on the rant?
  • Baden
    6.9k
    Everything needs to be fixed, maintained, created, synthesized..schopenhauer1

    Therefore there is something to do. Helps solve the issue of boredom you've often brought up, no?
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k

    With fixing broken and annoying things? You can be bored while doing a task.
  • Baden
    6.9k


    Or you can be interested. So...
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k

    It’s like a form of Stockholm syndrome. What other choice is there for most of us?
  • S
    6.3k
    You sound a little... :chin: ...pessimistic?

    What's worse: the harm of an imperfect and broken world, or the harm of an imperfect and broken record?
  • Baden
    6.9k


    What other choice would you want? Sit around and do nothing in a perfect world with no challenges?
  • TheWillowOfDarkness
    1.6k


    Our alternative is realising we are movement. Movement isn't a goal to be achieved, it's already given in moment. We don't need to burdened with a ghost of what we must supposedly do next. We can just be, rather than thinking we have to achieve one end. Even we are aiming for an end, it needn't be a burden. We can act towards an end no matter if we end up achieving it or not, the moment of movement all on its own.

    At all times, we are always choosing. To sit, doing nothing, in our (perfect or imperfect) world is a choice. Your notion of a perfect, movement less world is one without life.

    If someone never suffered, they would still be movement. They would do doing (or not doing) whatever they were.Your understanding does not grasp boredom, it rectifies all movement as boredom. Rather than just hating suffering, it hates life/movement, turning every moment of it into a suffering-- "Ah really, I have to do or not to do today. Woe is me: I exist."
  • Caldwell
    179
    We are sadistic beasts..schopenhauer1
    No.

    Think of the Viking beserkers mentality.. We are all that inside.schopenhauer1
    Not really.

    Why? Because..toughen the f*** up right? The world isn't perfect so you have to LEARN through TRIAL and ERROR...schopenhauer1
    Nah. Just sit still and observe. Just learn to observe.

    You have to follow some formula..schopenhauer1
    Nah. No formula. Learn Schrodinger's cat experiment.

    the Indifference of the Stoics..schopenhauer1
    They were not indifferent. They just knew when it's a losing proposition.

    You have to DEAL...Everything needs maintenance..needs fixing....schopenhauer1
    Live under the bridge and let the engineers maintain the bridge.
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    perfect world with no challenges?Baden

    A perfect world would have no challenges and no need for them.
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    If someone never suffered, they would still be movement. They would do doing (or not doing) whatever they were.Your understanding does not grasp boredom, it rectifies all movement as boredom. Rather than just hating suffering, it hates life/movement, turning every moment of it into a suffering-- "Ah really, I have to do or not to do today. Woe is me: I exist.TheWillowOfDarkness

    Right, perfection need not move.. would be a very poetic way to say it, but its not the full story, and you know it.
  • Baden
    6.9k


    Well then there would be no need for consciousness, and it never would have evolved. So your perfect world is essentially death, or at best a living death. And your argument is because we're not dead, we'd be better off dead. Or life is bad because it's not death. Pointless to anyone who enjoys life.
  • Aleksander Kvam
    213
    challenges has allways been a constant, and will probally allways be. the great human spirit would be to overcome them as they appaer...
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    Well then there would be no need for consciousness, and it never would have evolved. So your perfect world is essentially death, or at best a living death. And your argument is because we're not dead, we'd be better off dead. Or life is bad because it's not death. Pointless to anyone who enjoys life.Baden

    So a perfect unity would mean no need for need. You might describe it as a state like death, but death is only relative to what we know in life. You can also say it is like sleep without dreaming. The point is, once alive. We are always in maintenance mode. We can make this into a grandiose optimistic philosophy, but I don't think that is really going on. That is the dominant STORY so we can assent to the brokenness.
  • Baden
    6.9k


    Yeah, sleep without dreaming is an unconscious state that if it continued indefinitely would be indistinguishable from death. So, your ideal form of life is death to begin with. There's nothing to be said to that.
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    What is your philosophy on things. I've only seen you in the critical mode, but not in the constructive one of your own ideas. A bit telling to me. It's like you wait for me to post for just the right critical response. I see a bit on movement without ends. Maybe you wan to elaborate?
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    Yeah, sleep without dreaming is an unconscious state that if it continued indefinitely would be indistinguishable from death. So, your ideal form of life is death to begin with. There's nothing to be said to that.Baden

    I guess also the view from nowhere (and everywhere) might also describe it, if we were to get a bit mystical.
  • Baden
    6.9k


    There's nothing mystical about it. There is no view. No consciousness. No subject. No view. Nothing. Death.
  • Aleksander Kvam
    213
    There's nothing mystical about it. There is no view. No consciousness. No subject. No view. Nothing. Death.Baden

    hope your right! I cant stand the thought of an infinite after-life.
  • Baden
    6.9k


    I'm not talking about an after-life or lack thereof. I'm talking about Schope's proposed "perfect" life, which is a state indistinguishable from death.
  • Baden
    6.9k
    I know what you mean though.
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    I'm not talking about an after-life or lack thereof. I'm talking about Schope's proposed "perfect" life, which is a state indistinguishable from death.Baden

    We cannot know what that means though. Only from the third-person sense of thinking about the state of death.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.5k
    We are sadistic beasts..Think of the Viking beserkers mentality.. We are all that inside.schopenhauer1

    We are?

    No doubt some of us are, but you're overgeneralizing.

    Why?

    I've answered that in my other replies to you.

    ...toughen the f*** up right? The world isn't perfect so you have to LEARN through TRIAL and ERROR...

    The world isn't perfect, and neither are you. ...especially if you're a sadistic-beast Berserker.

    Of course. Not sure why you find that surprising.

    You have to follow some formula..

    Someone's formula is likely to be wrong.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.5k
    It’s [Acceptance of life is...] like a form of Stockholm syndrome. What other choice is there for most of us?schopenhauer1

    "Stockholm syndrome"? Call it what you want. But that isn't a reasonable or meaningful characterization of realistic acceptance of the situation that you find yourself in.

    It's obvious that right now you don't have a choice. (And no, suicide won't help.)

    You're perpetually complaining, railing, raging against your being in a life. I've amply answered that, in previous posts...as have others too.

    You've been rightly likened to a broken-record. You keep repeating your same complaint and beliefs, quite oblivious to all the answers that have been posted by others.

    A perfect world would have no challenges and no need for them.schopenhauer1

    As we've discussed before, what you say above describes how it eventually is at the end-of-lives (...or at the end of this life if there were no reincarnation).

    And, because, then, eventually you will be without identity, time, events, problems, situations that need dealing-with, menaces, lack, need or incompletion, or any knowledge or memory that there ever were or even could be such things...

    ...then it can be said that there will be timeless identity-less-ness and absence of needs, menace, lack, situations needing to be dealt-with, etc.


    (As I've pointed out before, there's no such thing as "oblivion". You'll never reach a time when you aren't.)

    Because our life (or finite sequence of lives) is temporary, and because the above-described state of affairs is timeless and final, then it can be said that the latter is the natural, normal and usual state-of-affairs.

    But it won't do you any good to long for that end. Longing for it, or whining & complaining about being in life, won't get you there any sooner.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    You've been rightly likened to a broken-record. You keep repeating your same complaint and beliefs, quite oblivious to all the answers that have been posted by others.Michael Ossipoff

    Fallacy of smugness.
  • schopenhauer1
    2.3k
    And, because, then, eventually you will be without identity, time, events, problems, situations that need dealing-with, menaces, lack, need or incompletion, or any knowledge or memory that there ever were or even could be such things...

    ...then it can be said that there will be timeless identity-less-ness and absence of needs, menace, lack, situations needing to be dealt-with, etc.
    Michael Ossipoff

    Why does it wait through this reincarnation process?
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.5k
    And, because, then, eventually you will be without identity, time, events, problems, situations that need dealing-with, menaces, lack, need or incompletion, or any knowledge or memory that there ever were or even could be such things...

    ...then it can be said that there will be timeless identity-less-ness and absence of needs, menace, lack, situations needing to be dealt-with, etc. — Michael Ossipoff


    Why does it wait through this reincarnation process?
    schopenhauer1

    Because you aren't ready for, or inclined toward rest, peace or quietude.

    You've spoken of restlessness. Well doesn't that mean that you aren't ready for rest?

    I suggest (along with Buddhists and Hindus), that the restful end-of-lives is experienced only by people who are already restful.

    ...people who are restful because they've achieved life-completion and life-style perfection.

    At the end of a life, before the deep timeless and identityless-ness is reached, there's a time of mere absence of waking-consciousness, a time when the person doesn't consciously remember about his/her recent life, or know whether s/he is coming or going....but retains hir (his/her) subconscious inclinations, predispositions, and will-to-life.

    That will-to-life is also inborn, in an infant, and a not-yet-born infant.

    So, when you're unconscious (in the sense of not having waking consciousness or knowledge of whether you're coming or going), then is your will-to-life that of someone who has just died, or of someone who isn't yet born?

    So, at that time during early unconsciousness in death, there's a llife-experience possibility-story, of someone about to be born, that matches your experience at that time. And, given your subconscious will-to-life, predispositions and inclinations, you will be that pre-birth infant.

    So, this time, at the end of this life, you won't reach the late stage of death in which there's no experience of time, individuality, identity, need, etc.

    It's said, and it makes sense, that there are typically a very great number of lives in one's finite sequence of lives.

    As I often say, in reincarnation discussions, if there's a reason why you're in a life (and I've told why there is), and if that reason continues to obtain at the end of this life, then what does that suggest?

    Michael Ossipoff
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