• praxis
    2k
    What is the worst lie that you are blaming Trump for?Nobeernolife

    Just a few of my favs:

    Many of the people in DACA, no longer very young, are far from ‘angels.’ Some are very tough, hardened criminals.

    I was the person who saved Pre-Existing Conditions in your healthcare.

    'Years of economic decay are over' because Trump 'reversed the failed economic policies of the previous administration.'

    Some of the Democrats have been talking about ending (coverage for) pre-existing conditions.

    In many places, like California, the same person votes many times. You probably heard about that. They always like to say 'oh that's a conspiracy theory.' Not a conspiracy theory, folks. Millions and millions of people.

    Over the last two years, the number of murders in America and America’s major cities has dropped, unlike here (Chicago), by more than 10%.

    Originally "almost all models predicted" Dorian would hit Alabama.

    California "admitted" there were "a million" illegal votes in the 2016 presidential election.

    There has never been, ever before, an administration that’s been so open and transparent.

    "The noise (from windmills) causes cancer.

    Democrats let him (cop killer Luis Bracamontes) into our country," and "Democrats let him stay."

    Everywhere Marie Yovanovitch went turned bad," including Somalia and Ukraine.

    Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, and the rest of the corrupt Democrats made a promise to their crazy left-wing base that they would impeach me even BEFORE I took office.

    Today I opened a major Apple Manufacturing plant in Texas that will bring high paying jobs back to America.
  • praxis
    2k
    You can not legislate affordability.Nobeernolife

    Can't help thinking about this. You say it as though it's some sort of economic principle. I think it's a statement of values, like saying that a society cannot afford to feed its citizens when in fact it has the resources available to do so.
  • Relativist
    1.3k
    No. Didn´t read it in detail, but right off the bat I see so many loaded assumptions, it is clear this is another hit piece.Nobeernolife
    Name a few of the assumptions you find questionable.

    And what else to expect from the Brookings Institute.
    I expect thoughtful analysis by experts. I expect the same thing from the Cato Institute and American Enterprise institute. I don't always agree with them, but its worthwhile to hear alternative, educated perspectives. You seem dismissive of any perspective you disagree with. No wonder you're so devoted to a cartoonist.
  • Nobeernolife
    487
    Proving beyond doubt that either you're terminally stupid - which I doubt - or vicious in the way of weasels and liars. The subject is not the size of anyone's inaugural, but rather lying about it.tim wood

    Political hyperbole is not "lying". By that standard, all politicians lie, any time, all the time. So again, is that the greatest "lie" you can think of?
  • Wayfarer
    9.5k
    I notice that Trump's approval rating is at an all time high. Hey, the bullshit sessions about a deadly virus, on prime time TV, are working! Selling false hope to a desperate populace is working! Who would have thought......
  • Nobeernolife
    487
    Just a few of my favs:praxis

    Many of the people in DACA, no longer very young, are far from ‘angels.’ Some are very tough, hardened criminals.
    --> not a lie

    I was the person who saved Pre-Existing Conditions in your healthcare.
    --> needs context, looks like hyperbole

    'Years of economic decay are over' because Trump 'reversed the failed economic policies of the previous administration.'
    --> not a lie

    Some of the Democrats have been talking about ending (coverage for) pre-existing conditions.
    --> needs context, looks like hyperbole

    In many places, like California, the same person votes many times. You probably heard about that. They always like to say 'oh that's a conspiracy theory.' Not a conspiracy theory, folks. Millions and millions of people.
    --> not a lie

    Over the last two years, the number of murders in America and America’s major cities has dropped, unlike here (Chicago), by more than 10%.
    --> don´t know, sounds probably

    Originally "almost all models predicted" Dorian would hit Alabama.
    --> don´t know, needs context

    California "admitted" there were "a million" illegal votes in the 2016 presidential election.
    --> don´t know, sounds very plausible

    There has never been, ever before, an administration that’s been so open and transparent.
    --> not a lie

    "The noise (from windmills) causes cancer.
    --> probably nonsense, sounds like hyperbole.

    Democrats let him (cop killer Luis Bracamontes) into our country," and "Democrats let him stay."--> not a lie

    Everywhere Marie Yovanovitch went turned bad," including Somalia and Ukraine.
    --> not a lie

    Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, and the rest of the corrupt Democrats made a promise to their crazy left-wing base that they would impeach me even BEFORE I took office.
    --> not a lie

    Today I opened a major Apple Manufacturing plant in Texas that will bring high paying jobs back to America.
    --> not a lie

    So that is a list of the worst "lies" that you can think of? Thanks for making my point about the credibility of these lists.

    Now do you have a comment about the vicious lies that the "mainstream" media tells us every day, from the claim that only CNN is allowed to read Wikileaks to staged muslim peace demonstrations, to "good people" Charleston lie to the "fish tank cleaner as miracle cure" lie? I only need to turn on CNN to see the lastes lies, day after day.
  • Echarmion
    1.2k
    Political hyperbole is not "lying". By that standard, all politicians lie, any time, all the time. So again, is that the greatest "lie" you can think of?Nobeernolife

    Why is it not lying? Is it ok for politicians to lie, some of the time or all the time? Do some politicians lie more than others?

    the claim that only CNN is allowed to read WikileaksNobeernolife

    Where and when did CNN use those exact words?

    staged muslim peace demonstrationsNobeernolife

    That just seems like political hyperbole, if it happened, which I doubt.

    "good people" Charleston lieNobeernolife

    Trump's words are a matter of public record. Not a lie.

    "fish tank cleaner as miracle cure" lie?Nobeernolife

    The thing they reported on happened, so based on your standard, not a lie.
  • Nobeernolife
    487
    I do. Real news can make mistakes. Fake news on the other hand "is a form of news consisting of deliberate disinformation or hoaxes ... written and published usually with the intent to mislead in order to damage an agency, entity, or person, and/or gain financially or politically, often using sensationalist, dishonest, or outright fabricated headlines to increase readership."Michael

    Pretty good description of what people are regularly fed by CNN, the NYT and the rest of the so-called mainstream media.
    How many have apologized for this fake Trump bashing news that was splattered all over recenty?
  • tim wood
    4k
    Political hyperbole is not "lying". By that standard, all politicians lie, any time, all the time. So again, is that the greatest "lie" you can think of?Nobeernolife

    Cannot you tell the difference? Maybe you are terminally stupid. Let's see how this works. So Trump can and maybe should aspire to the lowest level of character, honesty, integrity, and everything else usually valued in a man, because everyone else does it. Is that your standard? In short, it's ok with you if he lies and more credit to him the better he lies, yes?

    Trouble is everyone else doesn't do it. And your standards, were they become the national standard, why, you would get to unfurl those swastikas and stars-and-bars rolled up in you closet and fly your true colours. But why wait. There's a country across the sea -a few, actually - that would welcome you and swallow you up like an oyster on the half-shell.

    Try defending the lies if you can. And in reserve are all of his darker purposes. Hmm. It occurs to me I give you too much respect - you're clearly an ignorant child with no real understanding of the issues you write about. Does not render you harmless, but my bad for not recognizing that.
  • praxis
    2k
    So that is a list of the worst "lies" that you can think of? Thanks for making my point about the credibility of these lists.Nobeernolife

    Simply saying “not a lie” is, quite frankly, beyond idiotic. Those lies were cut and pasted from politifact.org and I could cut and paste the facts they list to support them, but why bother, facts are irrelevant to a Trump supporter. That’s the point you make.

    Regarding hyperbole, disinformation is intentionally false or misleading information that is spread in a calculated way to deceive target audiences. An exaggeration occurs when the most fundamental aspects of a statement are true, but only to a certain degree. Trump’s lies target people like yourself and are strategic in nature. Only a fool can’t see that.
  • NOS4A2
    2.9k


    Pretty good description of what people are regularly fed by CNN, the NYT and the rest of the so-called mainstream media.
    How many have apologized for this fake Trump bashing news that was splattered all over recenty?

    I can almost guarantee that most antitrumpist news has been curated for them by the gatekeepers of their respective bubbles, whether on twitter or reddit or on whatever social media they find themselves entirely among their fellow travellers. Any news that may reflect favorably on the president is wholly excluded, or worse, suppressed, so it is no strange wonder much of their thinking reflects the same.

    To be fair, this is also true of Trumpist bubbles, but the frequency of those are almost negligible as far as I can tell.
  • Relativist
    1.3k
    I do. Real news can make mistakes. Fake news on the other hand "is a form of news consisting of deliberate disinformation or hoaxes ... written and published usually with the intent to mislead in order to damage an agency, entity, or person, and/or gain financially or politically, often using sensationalist, dishonest, or outright fabricated headlines to increase readership."
    — Michael

    Pretty good description of what people are regularly fed by CNN, the NYT and the rest of the so-called mainstream media.
    How many have apologized for this fake Trump bashing news that was splattered all over recenty?
    Nobeernolife
    Seriously, when you make such a statement, it just sounds like you're parrotting Trump. Michael was referring to the original definition of "fake news" - falsehoods that get widely circulated. Trump uses the term to refer to unfavorable coverage. Avoid conflating the two, and you could then have productive conversations. If CNN is spreading actual falsehoods, that's something I want to know about. I'm also fine hearing about positive things Trump's done that CNN omitted. But be willing to discuss both the good and the bad.
  • Monitor
    141
    Also, you two know, you obviously know, that the majority of people here do not believe that he was remotely qualified to even be the president from the very beginning. And whatever right and good that comes out of this White House is not fundamentally because Trump actually cares about anything other that his own experience. It is not difficult to find apodictic reasons for this belief. This is your audience here. And you know it.
  • DingoJones
    1.6k
    To be fair, this is also true of Trumpist bubbles, but the frequency of those are almost negligible as far as I can tell.NOS4A2

    In my experience its about the same, the fringe on both sides unless you include the media and even then the anti-trump or pro trump media both equally remain mostly on the same message. (Though it seems to me the anti-trump/left media has a wider reach. Im just not sure too many people really care what mainstream media says anymore, they just act like people do. Also, I consider right news programs to be mainstream, mainstream on the right.).
    One problem is that to many anti-trump people think anyone who voted for Trump (or the vast majority) are the same people as the fringe who voted for Trump. They do not realise that a lot of people who voted for Trump are not all that much different than they are. Just ordinary people who voted for who they think is better, or stuck to voting for party over candidate. (And various other, normal reasons for voting for Trump). Thats why they will lose again, and Trump will be elected again. The deciding votes are these ghost people that anti-Trump people dont really believe exist so completely ignore them (or worse, specifically mischaracterise or alienate them as racist, bigoted etc etc).
    Anyway, bubbles. I think that at least a certain kind of bubble (a sub-bubble) is mirrored by both sides.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    6.7k
    To be fair, this is also true of Trumpist bubbles, but the frequency of those are almost negligible as far as I can tell.NOS4A2

    Most Trumpists, other than yourself of course, keep to themselves because they know that to publicly support Trump requires blatant lying and a display of dishonesty. You seem to have no conscience.
  • unenlightened
    4.4k
    I don't normally bother, but really, what a turnip! His fantasies have become completely irrelevant, as the virus ignores him and everyone else responds to the virus.
  • NOS4A2
    2.9k


    I keep to myself because your fellow travellers are violent and have a tendency to sucker punch and spit on others.
  • tim wood
    4k
    We're actually nice people, more-or-less. We-all know how to be nice and what nice is. We all fall into the nice-people category.You-all are pigs. But you want to be in the parlor. When we object, even in the most civil of ways, you all complain we're out to get you. (Why should we be surprised, it's the piggy way.) But, not at all; you-all just are in denial about being pigs and that your proper place is the sty. But as luck would have it, you've got one of yours ensconced on a nice chaise longue in the parlor. But he cannot cease from his piggy behaviour, and see what a mess he's making of it all. Of course, if you're a pig you don't see it, but you love to wallow in it.

    What is "it"? Just listen to Trump and you will hear "it" stream from his mouth, a cornucopia, if you will, of foulness. And of course if you tire of that symphony of s**t and need an intermission, there is always what he is doing behind the screen with his un-American, anti-freedom fascist, racist thug friends - men who have sold their manhood completely and cheaply, and the incompetent toadies that he replaces competent professionals with that he sends out to foul whatever and wherever they can.

    But never mind him. You and me. What's the difference between us? So far, that I hate the lie and the liar, understanding that he and his are bad for everything - a lesson already completely well-known and understood even in ancient Greece. But you? What do you have to say for yourself?
  • NOS4A2
    2.9k


    If you have to say you are you usually ain't. That's something you have to prove. Unfortunately I have yet to be sold on anything you've ever tried to put into words on this subject. It reeks to me of fanaticism and veiled persecution, but luckily for us pigs, I know they come from a place so effete and weak and empty that I can hardly be bothered to take them seriously. In fact they've become a mild source for humor, like the funny pages.

    You hate the lie and the liar while you generalize about millions of people you've never met: your peers, your neighbors, your countrymen. You emphasize the bad while suppressing the good. You can do little more than levy false accusations—lies. It becomes pitifully clear you've become what you hate.
  • tim wood
    4k
    Let's go back to being simple: has or has not Trump told many, many lies, and is there not some lie, usually a vicious lie, in nearly every word of his that comes to public notice? Yes? No?
  • Borraz
    23
    In my world, no one talks about politics or religion. We prefer to keep friends. It is a naturally diminishing whole. Be good.
  • fdrake
    3.3k


    It seems you don't live in your own world.
  • Nobeernolife
    487
    Why is it not lying? Is it ok for politicians to lie, some of the time or all the time? Do some politicians lie more than others?Echarmion
    All politicians spout political hyperbole. If you count that as "lying", they all lie all the time. Now lies I that I am concerned about are lies that have catastrophic results, such as the lie that the Bengazi jihadis were a popular, democratic uprising against Gaddafi. For examople.

    "The claim that only CNN is allowed to read Wikileaks — Nobeernolife
    Where and when did CNN use those exact words?"
    Echarmion
    Surprisingly, it is still on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQllunHssEk
    You might want to check before rushing to the keyboard

    staged muslim peace demonstrations — Nobeernolife
    That just seems like political hyperbole, if it happened, which I doubt.
    Echarmion
    The original complete clip has been removed by Youtube and Twitter (what a surprise), but you can still find parts of it. Watch it tell us how truthful CNN is:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g62_UMiv6wY

    "good people" Charleston lie — Nobeernolife
    Trump's words are a matter of public record. Not a lie.
    Echarmion
    He said "good people on both sides" about the pro/anti statue protesters, and NOT about the neonazis. Very clearly. Which you would know if you actually read the transcript, instead of listening to the fake media lies. The fake media narrative is a total lie, and one of the most shameful ones.

    "fish tank cleaner as miracle cure" lie?
    The thing they reported on happened, so based on your standard, not a lie.
    Echarmion
    No, it did NOT. Trump NEVER recommended drinking fish tank cleaner, like these two idiots did.
    The misrepresentation by the Guardian et al is patently fake news.
  • Nobeernolife
    487
    Michael was referring to the original definition of "fake news" - falsehoods that get widely circulated.Relativist
    That is exactly what I was referring to also.

    Trump uses the term to refer to unfavorable coverage. Avoid conflating the two, and you could then have productive conversations. If CNN is spreading actual falsehoods, that's something I want to know about. IRelativist
    You can find that very esily all the time, if you compare CNN coverage with the original footage of what they cover. Of course, if you stay inside the CNN/BBC/Guardian/NYT echo chamber, you always hear the same opinion narrative.
  • Relativist
    1.3k
    You can find that very esily all the time, if you compare CNN coverage with the original footage of what they cover. Of course, if you stay inside the CNN/BBC/Guardian/NYT echo chamber, you always hear the same opinion narrative.Nobeernolife
    Give me some notable examples of CNN spreading falsehoods. I want to understand what you'rw talking about.
  • Echarmion
    1.2k
    All politicians spout political hyperbole. If you count that as "lying", they all lie all the time.Nobeernolife

    Oh, so if they just report the weather today, that's also "hyperbole"?

    Now lies I that I am concerned about are lies that have catastrophic results, such as the lie that the Bengazi jihadis were a popular, democratic uprising against Gaddafi. For examople.Nobeernolife

    Or lying about having a dangerous epidemic under control while it is in fact spreading uninhibited across the country?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQllunHssEk
    You might want to check before rushing to the keyboard
    Nobeernolife

    Nowhere in that video does it say that only CNN is allowed to read WikiLeaks. Is what the person is saying a lie? How about you go ahead and prove it? Or are you the liar here?

    The original complete clip has been removed by Youtube and Twitter (what a surprise), but you can still find parts of it. Watch it tell us how truthful CNN is:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g62_UMiv6wY
    Nobeernolife

    That video actually proves the protest wasn't staged. Only a specific view on the protest was created. We could call it an "alternate protest". This really just is media showmanship. Everyone does it all the time. I just care about actual, damaging lies. Like lying about climate change. If that's the best you can offer, I think I was right all along.

    He said "good people on both sides" about the pro/anti statue protesters, and NOT about the neonazis. Very clearly. Which you would know if you actually read the transcript, instead of listening to the fake media lies. The fake media narrative is a total lie, and one of the most shameful ones.Nobeernolife

    Sorry, dude, but that's just like, your opinion. Opinions aren't facts, and having one isn't lying. You got nothing here.

    No, it did NOT. Trump NEVER recommended drinking fish tank cleaner, like these two idiots did.
    The misrepresentation by the Guardian et al is patently fake news.
    Nobeernolife

    Show me the report that said that Trump recommended drinking fish tank cleaner. Or the report saying the guy did exactly what Trump recommended. It's all just a narrative in your head.
  • DingoJones
    1.6k
    Give me some notable examples of CNN spreading falsehoods. I want to understand what you'rw talking about.Relativist

    A good example is “pussygate”. I felt like the incident was pretty thoroughly misreported on CNN and most other media. First, they left out what proceeded his actual pussy grabbing comment which was “...when youre a celebrity, they LET you do whatever you want” or something close to that. That part is always left out and clipped so it can be misrepresented as sexual predation. Within a week it went from suggesting it meant he thought it was fun to sexually assault women to calling him an admitted rapist.
    It seemed pretty dishonest to me, and was spreading a falsehood.
    Another common thing I see is the conflation of jokes or hyperbole as factual claims. They do it all the time, going with the worst possible interpretation of something Trump said. I mean, I get it, Trump will hide behind hyperbole or jokes or actually lie but thats exactly why its so important not to tell lies or misrepresent what he said. Once you do that, people can say the media is misrepresenting or lying and be totally correct. Then Trump can call it fake news, and be 100% right. This provides cover for the actual problematic things he says and does.
    I mean, you can pretty much say anything about Trump and no one questions it. Calling him a Nazi, a racist, a narcissistic sociopath...and no one questions it. If just one of those terms is inaccurate or has no evidential basis then I would call it a falsehood.
    Im not saying its only with Trump, news is such a click baiting wasteland its full of this kinda thing and an place like Fox will spread falsehoods in the opposite direction but to say that Trump isnt misrepresented or lied about by the media seems clearly untrue to me.
  • Relativist
    1.3k
    A good example is “pussygate”. I felt like the incident was pretty thoroughly misreported on CNN and most other media. First, they left out what proceeded his actual pussy grabbing comment which was “...when youre a celebrity, they LET you do whatever you want” or something close to that. That part is always left out and clipped so it can be misrepresented as sexual predation. Within a week it went from suggesting it meant he thought it was fun to sexually assault women to calling him an admitted rapist.
    It seemed pretty dishonest to me, and was spreading a falsehood.
    DingoJones
    I heard the entire audio on CNN, and it included everything you said. No one has ever suggested that this isolated clip shows he's a sexual predator, but it does add context to the looooong list of sexual misconduct : he's cheated on every wife he's ever had numerous times (including Melania shortly after giving birth); there are numerous allegations of unwelcome sexual advances; he felt entitled to visit the Miss Universe contestants while they were dressing....the list goes on. His behavior toward women is indefensible. If you don't accept that, then you're burying your head in the sand.

    Another common thing I see is the conflation of jokes or hyperbole as factual claims. They do it all the time, going with the worst possible interpretation of something Trump said. I mean, I get it, Trump will hide behind hyperbole or jokes or actually lie but thats exactly why its so important not to tell lies or misrepresent what he said. Once you do that, people can say the media is misrepresenting or lying and be totally correct. Then Trump can call it fake news, and be 100% right. This provides cover for the actual problematic things he says and does.DingoJones
    Trump utters an enormous number of falsehoods.
    Some are downright lies (intentional untruths), some are repeating nonsense he's heard from idiots like Alex Jones, some is just pure stupidity, and yes- some is hyperbole, and much of that is inappropriate (e.g. telling police officers it's ok to rough up the people they arrest). Is it CNN's job to analyze each false utterance and discern which category they belong to? Discerning fact from fiction seems sufficient, and Trump could avoid the negative interpretations if he'd strive to make factual statements.

    Nevertheless, I see the difference between opinion and facts. My steady diet of CNN has not impaired that. Contrast that with die-hard Trump supporters who are in denial of any negative reporting about Trump. I can respect a Trump supporter who likes his policies, if they are realistic about what sort if man he is. I have zero respect for someone who make excuses for everything he does.
  • praxis
    2k
    He said "good people on both sides" about the pro/anti statue protesters, and NOT about the neonazis. Very clearly. Which you would know if you actually read the transcript, instead of listening to the fake media lies. The fake media narrative is a total lie, and one of the most shameful ones.Nobeernolife

    So there was a group of protesters supporting the removal and a group against, and the neo-nazis just happened to be in the neighborhood attending a home decor tiki torch convention or something?
  • DingoJones
    1.6k
    I heard the entire audio on CNN, and it included everything you said. No one has ever suggested that this isolated clip shows he's a sexual predator, but it does add context to the looooong list of sexual misconduct : he's cheated on every wife he's ever had numerous times (including Melania shortly after giving birth); there are numerous allegations of unwelcome sexual advances; he felt entitled to visit the Miss Universe contestants while they were dressing....the list goes on. His behavior toward women is indefensible. If you don't accept that, then you're burying your head in the sand.Relativist

    You asked for an example of him being misrepresented in the news, which I provided. Whether it fits an overall narrative about Trump is another matter. Just because someone does something wrong doesn't mean that you can freely make up more instances of that something and claim they are true.

    Trump utters an enormous number of falsehoods.
    Some are downright lies (intentional untruths), some are repeating nonsense he's heard from idiots like Alex Jones, some is just pure stupidity, and yes- some is hyperbole, and much of that is inappropriate (e.g. telling police officers it's ok to rough up the people they arrest).Is it CNN's job to analyze each false utterance and discern which category they belong to? Discerning fact from fiction seems sufficient, and Trump could avoid the negative interpretations if he'd strive to make factual statements.
    Relativist

    Lol, yes! That is their job, not going “we hate this guy, lets just go with close enough”. Its actually very important to get it as accurate as possible, to recognise distinctions between lies, errors, ignorance etc.
    Those are important distinctions and again, not being accurate or open about those distinctions is costly for any kind of anti-trump agenda. It plays into his hands, it lets him accurately claim “fake news”, which obscures the truth and any lies Trump actually does tell. It allows Trump To muddy the waters.

    Nevertheless, I see the difference between opinion and facts. My steady diet of CNN has not impaired that. Contrast that with die-hard Trump supporters who are in denial of any negative reporting about Trump. I can respect a Trump supporter who likes his policies, if they are realistic about what sort if man he is. I have zero respect for someone who make excuses for everything he does.Relativist

    Well I didnt say you couldnt tell the difference between opinion and facts, nor suggested CNN impairs your judgement. It might, I dont really know.
    I said they lie about Trump, and mischaracterise Trump. To use your term, they spread falsehoods. Thats what I interjected to discuss.
    Your stance on Trump supporters is noted, but I am not a Trump supporter. I dont even live in the US.
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