• Blue Lux
    480
    DMT is a psychedelic substance, but it is in your brain and functions as a neurotransmitter. You can vaporize it or combine it with an maoi and consume it orally. It is arguably the most powerful psychedelic substance on Earth, and there is research about it in terms of REM sleep.
    I have done it. I vaporized it.
    When you do enough, you contact aliens. Literally. There are thousands upon thousands of accounts of witnessing other beings that try and communicate with you. Time slows down dramatically and you can feel like you are blasted out of your body into a hyperspace.
    It functions as a pseudoneurotransmitter in the brain, and there is research about endogenous hallucinogens in the brain that mediate what experience is or consists of.

    In the Amazon rainforest, native tribes have been drinking dmt in a brew called Ayahuasca, and they say they contact their ancestors and the spiritual world. People go there today to engage in ceremonies and the Ayahuasca experience has been shown to be able to alleviate the fear of death for cancer patients, as has LSD, and also people with severe depression, childhood trauma, PTSD, etc have all had extraordinarily positive benefits from Ayahuasca, as well as help with drug dependence...
    The psychedelic known as ibogaine can completely take someone off of heroin.

    I do not label psychedelic substances in relation to other drugs like opioids, benzos, barbituates, alcohol, cocaine, amphetamines, etc... They are simply too different. Psychedelic drugs affect the 5ht2a serotonin receptor, and that is very different than cocaine or amphetamines.

    Anyway, MDMA or ecstasy was originally used for couples therapy or help with ptsd. It is termed as an empathogen because it literally causes empathy.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.2k
    Sometimes I like to number some statements or topics.
    -------------------------------------------
    1. NDEs are valid. NDEs are unusual instances of return from an early stage of death. Dogmatic Materialists like to cite biological explanations. No sh*t :D All human and other animal consciousness is biological. What else is new..

    Some people think that saying that consciousness is biological contradicts Idealism or the primacy and metaphysical priority of Consciousness. It doesn't.

    Physical sciences explain things in the physical world in terms of other physical things. In and with respect to the physical world, events must make sense physically, and happen in compliance with physical laws. Physical law isn't contravened in the physical world.

    (Likewise, by the way, more generally, in the describable realm, things must make logical sense, and logic isn't contravened. There's no need for brute-facts in physics or metaphysics, especially since there's a metaphysics that doesn't need a brute fact. In other words, kiss off Materialism and its brute-fact.)

    So the biological nature of consciousness doesn't isn't an argument against the validity of NDEs.

    2. According to an earlier poster to this thread, one or more careful scientific studies didn't find statistically-significant evidence that NDEs give a person information about events or objects around hir (him/her) that s/he hasn't seen. That isn't surprising, because, as i said, in the physical world, one wouldn't expect physical law to be contravened.

    That in no way reduces the validity, relevance or importance of NDEs.

    -------------------------------------------------

    3. .

    .
  • Blue Lux
    480
    Michael...

    No one knows jack sh*t about the nature of consciousness or being. This is my position.
  • JupiterJess
    108
    Sam, what are your thoughts on the meme argument for the corroborating evidence?
    The meme argument would say the "after life/ OBE experience" is within the public psyche and so the brain deprived of sensory input attempts to predict where it is now and uses cultural attributions to fill in the gap (similar to filling in phenomena except at a higher abstract level). I'm not sure where you stand on naive realism, but I don't think the Sam Parnia experiment worked out too well.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.2k
    Sam, what are your thoughts on the meme argument for the corroborating evidence?
    The meme argument would say the "after life/ OBE experience" is within the public psyche and so the brain deprived of sensory input attempts to predict where it is now and uses cultural attributions to fill in the gap.
    JupiterJess

    The ideology explanation doesn't hold up, because people of vastly, entirely, different ideologies, religions, and philosophies have reported basically the same NDEs.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • JupiterJess
    108
    The ideology explanation doesn't hold up, because people of vastly, entirely, different ideologies, religions, and philosophies have reported basically the same NDEs.Michael Ossipoff

    It wasn't really about ideology which is a complete structure but more meme based (as in an experience built out of tiny ideas which can some from anywhere). For example someone reads about the tunnel idea and then the brain constructs it because it seems to be a reasonable possibility. I also think the "ghost floating above a fallen body" is fairly universal in all cultures. There are ghost stories in every culture. Also there could be a biological/evolutionary counterpart, for example Dehaene claims his lab is able to trigger them by activating certain parts of the brain. Before I do something I always imagine myself in third-person vision doing it so perhaps it is an involuntary version of that mental process.
    It would be interesting if the "silver cord" stuff has been reported by people unfamiliar with all the mythos behind AP/OBEs. I did reach the "vibration" stage long before I read any AP literature or knew anything about it.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.2k
    What does "AP" stand for?

    Michael Ossipoff
  • JupiterJess
    108
    What does "AP" stand for?Michael Ossipoff

    Astral projection http://uk.iacworld.org/what-are-the-sensations-of-astral-projection/

    As said before, I did experience some of this before I knew the term (electrical sensory vibrations and sirens). I googled because I thought it could be a type of illness and was surprised to find these symptoms had been pushed to the top of google. If you look into the communities they go further describing silver cords, otherwordly beings ect. These parts are what I think are probably memes that the brain then fills in. I think sensory deprivation is an unacceptable state for the mind so it uses underlying evolutionary fill-ins as a grounding then moves on to common ideas and then the higher level cultural ones are at the far end of the process.
    It might be possible that the soul does leave the body for other dimensions but the more pedestrian explanations should be explored first.
  • Vince
    7


    This description of the sensations looks a lot like the ones I feel when I'm having a WILD(Wake Induced Lucid Dream). I'm sure most of you know what a lucid dream is, otherwise look it up. A WILD means that you're staying conscious and aware all the way to the dreaming state.

    A few times a year, as I fall asleep, I start feeling/hearing a vibration in my head and ears. It comes in waves and gets more intense every time until it is almost unbearable and rather scary. I used to open my eyes to stop it because of the fear, but one time I decided to ride the vibration all the way through. Once I reached the highest intensity, all of a sudden my body felt like it was doing back flips in zero gravity, faster and faster and there I was, in a dream and lucid about it, where everything looked as real as when I was awake. On a side note, even though it looks real, I'm unable to focus on small details, they get blurry and things change.

    My point here, is that I don't think I'm astrally projecting, even though I can fly and even go to outer space, things aren't as real as they look, they don't resist scrutiny.
    I believe the sensation/noise/vibration is nothing more than your sensory perception shutting down from your brain.
    I've never seen a tunnel, but I've seen angels which were nothing more than the product of my imagination I believe.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.2k


    NDEs weren't in the popular culture or the popular mind before the publication of Raymond Moody's Life after Life. So NDE in popular culture doesn't explain the many NDEs described by Moody.

    You speak of all sorts of cultural elements, but NDEs' resemblance to those is rather rough, and a bit of a reach. ...in stark contrast to the uniformity of NDE reports.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.2k


    As for biological explanations, maybe I should repeat what I recently said about that:

    Dogmatic Materialists like to cite biological explanations. No sh*t :D All human and other animal consciousness is biological. What else is new..

    Some people think that saying that consciousness is biological contradicts Idealism or the primacy and metaphysical priority of Consciousness. It doesn't.
    Michael Ossipoff

    Michael Ossipoff
  • JupiterJess
    108
    Once I reached the highest intensity, all of a sudden my body felt like it was doing back flips in zero gravity, faster and faster and there I was, in a dream and lucid about it,Vince

    Interesting, the way it is described is that you become lucid within the dream first and then move on to vibrations. I have plenty of lucid dreams and they are similar to how you describe, my phone is blurry, so are clocks ect and things often shift. I think this is what a lot of people are describing.
    However there is a second (or third if you count normal dreaming as different from lucid) stage where if you then attempt to vibrate and leave your body within that lucid dream you move on elsewhere where things feel "more real than reality". It is a very stark difference in phenomenology between that and the lucid-dream.
    Please note when I say second-stage or third I am meaning in reportable epistemic terms. I'm not committing to an ontological second-stage that is separated from normal sleep.
  • JupiterJess
    108
    As for biological explanations, maybe I should repeat what I recently said about that:
    All human and other animal consciousness is biological. What else is new..
    Michael Ossipoff

    But I'm not making a statement of identity (like type-physicalism as it is currently called).
    I am discerning between evolutionary and sociological explanations. One of these is psychologically innate whereas the other is not. So what I'm saying there is possibility for this to occur even within raised on a desert island scenarios. What I am saying with that is that we often think of ourselves having a first person verdical perception of the world in front of us, but also we can see ourselves in third person terms and there is a really obvious evolutionary advantage for being able to do that. Like imagining what could be at the top of a hill before you get there.
    Though I disagree specific things like "silver cords and stronger OBE mythology" can exist in desert island scenarios.

    NDEs weren't in the popular culture or the popular mind before the publication of Raymond Moody's Life after Life. So NDE in popular culture doesn't explain the many NDEs described by Moody.Michael Ossipoff

    I honestly think ghosts floating above bodies has always been part of culture. Here's a really obvious one from Tom and Jerry: https://youtu.be/ofUzHtlil60?t=1m51s
    You only have to also look at various mythology to see similar instances.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.2k
    I honestly think ghosts floating above bodies has always been part of culture. Here's a really obvious one from Tom and Jerry: https://youtu.be/ofUzHtlil60?t=1m51s
    You only have to also look at various mythology to see similar instances.
    JupiterJess

    That's why I just finished saying this:

    You speak of all sorts of cultural elements, but NDEs' resemblance to those is rather rough, and a bit of a reach. ...in stark contrast to the uniformity of NDE reports.Michael Ossipoff

    Michael Ossipoff
  • Sam26
    984
    I think the experiences of NDEs goes beyond consciousness filling in the gaps based on cultural experiences. There are just to many NDEs that demonstrate that people are having real experiences, and these are corroborated by objective testimonial evidence. In fact, what's seems weird is that while the brain is shutting down, instead of the experiences being less real, which is what you would expect of a brain that's not at full capacity, what you find instead is that the experiences are more real. What I mean by more real is that the experiences are hyper-real, NDEers experience more awareness, more knowledge, larger visual field, etc. In fact, this reality seems dreamlike by comparison.
  • Pattern-chaser
    375
    Have you have heard of Karl Popper? This is the scientific method derived from his epistemology and in any form of dialectic this should be the primary method in order to not get biased towards a certain assumed conclusion.Christoffer

    Ooo! :worry: That's a statement of The One and Only Truth, if I ever saw one. :meh:
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