I often think of goth music as expressing similar things to punk music, but only in another mode. — Moliere

Goth rock grew out of punk rock, just as power metal grew out of heavy metal. Goth rock is a subgenre within punk rock.

How would you categorize Kraftwerk? — Moliere

It's Krautrock, IMHO, though that label doesn't really say much. Maybe "Experimental Music" is a more nuanced term. But it's just Krautrock at the end of the day, to my mind.

Cool.

This thread is more metal based so I can see a distinction there now that I think about it. I was seeing the Kraftwerk to Goth line of flight, rather than thinking about the context of the thread, cuz Type O etc.


One of the reasons I tagged @unenlightened in this thread is the cover is from his era, but also they claimed to steal rifts from The Beatles, only played them backwards and with different tempos. So there's a line of flight from the 60's counter-culture to metal counter-culture, tho by a niche sub-genre.

Metal is an odd genre. It allegedly started with Black Sabbath, but even that's debatable (given the existence of Coven's album prior to Black Sabbath).

I would say that both Coven and Sabbath sound more like Hippie Rock than what we usually think that metal sounds like. In that sense, I would say that Motörhead sounds more metal than both of those bands.

Just to be clear -- Motörhead sounds more metal than Coven and/or Sabbath?

Yes, it does. It's more metal than both Coven and Sabbath, which sound more like Hippie Rock. To my mind, at least.

:up:

Well now the task for me is to connect Hippie rock to METAL :D

I already gave Type O Negative tho, so prolly not in this thread. Something to think about.

Well now the task for me is to connect Hippie rock to METAL :D — Moliere

Black Sabbath is the connection there. They rejected the concepts of the Hippie movement/generation, while at the same time retaining some of its musical characteristics. They did try to push the envelope in that sense as well, of course, but at the end of the day Black Sabbath sounds more like Jefferson Airplane than Slayer or Mayhem, for example.

@Arcane Sandwich Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you







:D

Thanks! I love Siouxsie, as well as Fields. They're foundational, genre-defining bands IMHO.

All About Eve usually gets classified as goth rock. Without the stereotypes, of course.

Regarding metal, here's a band that I like.

I hear the goth rock in that song. Also a nice genre-crossing song in that it feels folk, at the same time.

She has that breathy sound that goth bands employ, but she's not doing it for affect -- she's a good singer who happens evoke that sound to me.

She was also friends with Sisters of Mercy, IIRC.

Around 1992 I migrated to jazz and classical in search of the kind of heavy I really wanted (and found Coltrane and Stravinsky), so I missed everything that happened in metal subsequently. Prior to jumping ship, I had begun with Iron Maiden, progressed to Sepultura, and eventually found myself at the more intense end of the spectrum: Death, Morbid Angel, Obituary, Carcass. Very few of those albums have stood the test of time for me personally (in my case it really was mainly just angry young man's music), but I do still like World Downfall by Terrorizer (at the punk end of thrash metal ("grindcore")) and Reign in Blood by Slayer. I went to see Sepultura, Godflesh, Carcass, Slayer and others, in fairly small venues, and I'm still living with the tinnitus.

One of the more groovy (almost funky) tracks from Terrorizer:



In the 2000s I discovered Mr Bungle, Secret Chiefs 3, and others in that ecosystem, and was thus awoken to the interesting influences that metal was having in the new century (EDIT: I think of Mr Bungle as a 2000s band, just because that's when I discovered them), but I never again got interested in contemporary mainline heavy metal.

I do love this one by Secret Chiefs 3, for the sheer horror (although I believe it's actually being performed by one of their satellite bands):

Around 1992 I migrated to jazz and classical in search of the kind of heavy I really wanted (and found Coltrane and Stravinsky) — Jamal

Jazz is definitely more technical than metal. Way more technical. Perhaps Meshuggah can hang in there with jazz musicians, but other than that, there's not much. There's some metal that has jazz influences (like Cynic, or Atheist, for example) but there is nothing in metal that comes close to the technical complexity of John Coltrane's Giant Steps. There just isn't.

I like Art Tatum, Cecil Taylor and Django Reinhardt.

I had begun with Iron Maiden, progressed to Sepultura, and eventually found myself at the more intense end of the spectrum: Death, Morbid Angel, Obituary, Carcass. Very few of those albums have stood the test of time for me personally (in my case it really was mainly just angry young man's music) — Jamal

I think that Heartwork by Carcass is the album that stood the test of time the best of those bands, which is an admittedly unpopular opinion. Morbid Angel sounds kinda corny, to be honest. Death is cool, especially because they deliberately avoided all of the stereotypical, low-hanging fruit (i.e, satanism, the devil, etc.). Sepultura is a hard case for me, but I'd say that Roots sort of stands the test of time (again, unpopular opinion, I know). Iron Maiden and Obituary get a "meh" from me. I respect them, but neither is my cup of metallic tea.

I do still like World Downfall by Terrorizer (at the punk end of thrash metal ("grindcore")) and Reign in Blood by Slayer. I went to see Sepultura, Godflesh, Carcass, Slayer and others, in fairly small venues, and I'm still living with the tinnitus. — Jamal

Terrorizer is a band that I could never really get into. In the grindcore deparment, I like Brutal Truth.



And here are the lyrics to that.

Brutal Truth - Anti-homophobe

Ignorant in thought
Distorts your twisted values
Break your ancient chains
And part with the ways of the past
You don't have the right
To force your own opinion
You don't understand
So you have to lash

Anti-homophobe

We believe in freedom
Whatever turns you on
Life is short and full of woe
So you have yourself a blast
I may not be gay
But I don't care if you are
Live your life in peace
And fuck them if they laugh — Brutal Truth

(edited because apparently I can't write without making some mistakes)

It was watching that video that finally allowed me to appreciate Cecil Taylor.

Jazz is definitely more technical than metal — Arcane Sandwich

Maybe so, but that's not the essential thing, and it's not why I moved away from metal and towards jazz.

Maybe so, but that's not the essential thing, and it's not why I moved away from metal and towards jazz. — Jamal

What do you get out of jazz specifically, that you don't get out of metal? For me it's the technicality, but perhaps it's different in your case. What does jazz have that metal doesn't, that makes it more interesting or more pleasing to your ear?

It's multi-dimensional, humane, all-encompassing. It's the difference between great literature and formulaic genre fiction. It's warmer, yet harder, more intense yet more relaxed. It's a whole world, not just a petulant little part of it, like heavy metal is.

I'm just having a hard time understanding how jazz can be harder and more intense than metal. I definitely agree that heavy metal is a petulant little part of the world, though.

What do you mean when you say that it's more intense? Metal is musical barbarism, few things are harsher than it from a musical standpoint. I'd say that Experimental Noise (in the manner of Merzbow or Masonna, for example) is one of the few genres that gives metal a run for its money in that sense.

Fair enough. It's hard to elucidate exactly what I meant by "intense" and "hard", etc., but it sounds more penetratingly intense to my sensibility, particularly things like this:



I agree that metal and noise might be often more brutal, though.