It's utterly insane that cyclists are legally allowed in bus lanes. — AmadeusD

Why not let them ride the train tracks as well?

That's my feeling lol.

The general idea of setting up bus lanes in NZ cities is to prepare main commuting routes for eventual conversion to light rail networks. Or at least some kind of rapid transit corridor. It reserves the road space that these projects will need.

In the meantime, anything that encourages more cyclists and bus passengers, less motorists in SUVs, is a step in the right direction so far as urban planning is concerned.

So it is all part of the plan to reinstall the rails and cycles that were the dominant transport mode just a century ago. But the car lobby will be the reason governments get nervous and keep pulling the plug.

Although now even a light-rail and cycleway cancelling government is having to resort to congestion charging. Small cities like Christchurch, Queenstown and Tauranga are starting to get commute times to match the legendary traffic snafus that already 20 years ago had spoilt Auckland as a place worth living.

You seem to be under the impression NZ is going to magically become rich in the next few years.
These are the same delusional takes of the Greens. Sanguine to the point of stupidity.

In the meantime, anything that encourages more cyclists and bus passengers, less motorists in SUVs, is a step in the right direction so far as urban planning is concerned. — apokrisis

It is not at all a step in the right directly for a city as spread-out as Auckland. This also ignores the blatant risks shared cycleways present. Cyclists are some of the least respectful people I have ever had the displeasure of interacting with on the political front. No one gives a flying fuck if you get good feelies from cycling to work and snorting at drivers. No. One. Cares. Sit down.

You seem to be under the impression NZ is going to magically become rich in the next few years. — AmadeusD

You think roads and carparks are cheap national investments? Do you think that countries get rich by not being focused on the long term economics of their infrastructure investments?

Where would NZ be economically if it hadn't made its big push with dams and electricity grids in the 30s. Or the earlier very rapid moves into rail systems, tram systems and coastal shipping?

Do you know anything about NZ's actual past or present, let alone how badly it is handling its future?

You want public infrastructure as good as it used to be? A proper three waters upgrade for instance? Wellington might want that you think. Not the current story of both centralising the decision and then pushing the cost and delivery back onto local government. The ratepayers who won't understand why suddenly they are getting charged for water when so little is being done to fix their own network.

NZ could have just got on with its big infrastructure investments like Auckland light rail, Lake Onslow pumped hydro, the new Cook Strait ferries it had already ordered. But instead short-termism rules. Voters are encouraged to think that public finance should indeed be run like a house-hold budget. Money can only be printed by banks to inflate house prices.

Cyclists are some of the least respectful people I have ever had the displeasure of interacting with on the political front. — AmadeusD

You seem spectacularly uninformed about the country you live in. Talkback radio level. Why would your views deserve respect when they are so lacking in content?

It's utterly insane that cyclists are legally allowed in bus lanes. Utterly bewilderingly dangerous - and it encourages cyclists to blame everyone else. — AmadeusD

Why? Bus drivers are at least professional and trained to be attentive. They are not texting or day-dreaming like the average car commuter. What's the problem? — apokrisis

I think this comes down to the statistics. How many cyclists use the lanes? How many accidents are there?
My prediction is that cyclists in bus lanes will work until there are too many of them. Then there will be accidents and delays to public transport. The latter, in particular, is the primary reason why they are brought into existence, at least in the UK. You can't run a bus system unless journey times are reasonably predictable; unpredictable traffic jams make it impossible to schedule the buses. Plus, it gives public transport an edge over cars in terms of journey times.
Of course, that will only work if there are not too many buses. If they get too many, they will cause their own traffic jams and delays.
It's also the story of Venice, Madeira, Barcelona in recent news. One cruise ship is excellent business. Ten or twenty cruise ships are a public disaster. Some AirBNB flats are not a problem. Too many AirBNB flats means local people go homeless or have to move out.
You may notice a theme here. Things can work perfectly well until too many people want to take them up. Then they don't work any more. That's the story of cars. It's really quite simple. But the political implications are - tricky.

This is really getting into the weeds but the NZ context is that bus lanes are being created by taking out roadside parking and the margin of the road where cyclists would normally pedal.

So from a cyclist point of view, they are being asked to share with buses rather than the other way around.

National multimodal transport policy 10 years back was anticipating a transition to the building of separated cycleways and a lot of that was being built under previous governments, helped by the fact the Green Party was part of the coalition.

This is really getting into the weeds but the NZ context is that bus lanes are being created by taking out roadside parking and the margin of the road where cyclists would normally pedal. — apokrisis

Ouch! I didn't think of that. It certainly puts the project in a different perspective. And I suppose the idea of the cyclists pedalling along outside the bus lane in the car/lorry lane is even worse.
When you have a nice broad roadway, you can separate, pedestrians, cyclists, buses, cars. (Where do horses belong?) But in inner cities, it is much harder. (though the lower traffic speeds do help).
In the end, I guess, it will come down to restricting cars; after all, one person one car is hopelessly (luxuriously) inefficient. In ancient Rome, they forbade commercial vehicles during day-light hours; we could do the same. But the price is noise during night hours. But then, there's not many people living in the inner city. No solution, just balances and compromises.

When the stone falls on the egg, alas for the egg; when the egg falls on the stone, alas for the egg — Arabic proverb.

It is the vulnerability of organic life to damage in accidental contact with machinery that results in the domination of the machine unless regulation protects the rights of life. When cars were first introduced to the road in the UK, a law was instituted that such devices could only operate on the public road if a man with a red flag preceded them on foot to warn other road users. Unfortunately, as it was only the rich and powerful who could afford these monstrosities, this law was repealed, and thus the myth of the freedom of the road was transferred from the human being to the machine.

This reached its apotheosis with the building of the motorway system from which everything as natural as a horse, a pedestrian or a blade of grass was rigorously forbidden and excluded — rocks only, eggs forbidden.

By the sixties it became apparent that the freedom for all to travel anywhere resulted in everywhere being a carpark and nowhere worth visiting except those few corners inaccessible to the machine. "They paved paradise, and put up a parking lot." (not us of course - them).

Yet still machine rights still trump the rights of human and animal, because folk cannot think straight, and "the economy" demands that we all have more and faster and shinier, and spend more of our lives roasting alone in our mechanical tin boxes between 'the machine for living' we call home, and mechanical serving life we call 'work'.

Thus the luddite view of progress as something to be resisted.

It's utterly insane that cyclists are legally allowed in bus lanes. Utterly bewilderingly dangerous - and it encourages cyclists to blame everyone else. — AmadeusD

It is utterly insane that humans have voluntarily, by consensus, given up their own freedom of movement in favour of that of machines they have created.

Bikes on bus lanes are fine in the Low Countries.

given up their own freedom of movement in favour of that of machines they have created. — unenlightened

I can't grasp what you're saying. This is plainly not true.

Then there will be accidents and delays to public transport — Ludwig V

Our public transport is a laughing stock and large for this reason - I've been stuck behind cyclists and been alte for work many, many times on a bus, but we're not allowed to blame cyclists because there's an utterly bewildering number of uneducated weirdos who think that regulating anything is genocidal.

That siad, our trains fucking suck too.

You seem spectacularly uninformed about the country you live in. Talkback radio level. Why would your views deserve respect when they are so lacking in content? — apokrisis

I take it you're an asshole cyclist then? Hehehe. Showing your hand rather obviously here, given what I said was an anecdote, not a political essay.

NZ could have just got on with its big infrastructure investments like Auckland light rail, Lake Onslow pumped hydro, the new Cook Strait ferries it had already ordered. — apokrisis

No it couldn't. Obviously.

Do you know anything about NZ's actual past or present, let alone how badly it is handling its future? — apokrisis

Yes, but it appears perhaps you dont? FTR, I hate New Zealand. It's an awful country in almost all ways except landscape. You wont get me to care.

You think roads and carparks are cheap national investments? — apokrisis

This makes no sense in response to what I've said.

You want public infrastructure as good as it used to be? — apokrisis

I said nothing of hte kid. WTF?

Not the current story of both centralising the decision and then pushing the cost and delivery back onto local government. — apokrisis

This is the only efficient way to get large projects done in a country so devoid of intelligence and sense-making leadership.

I take it you're an asshole cyclist — AmadeusD

And I take it you're an asshole, full stop.

FTR, I hate New Zealand. It's an awful country in almost all ways except landscape. — AmadeusD

So why live there?

Nothing you have said makes any sense.

And I take it you're an asshole, full stop. — apokrisis

Ah, you're one of those. Possibly this isn't the site for you if this is how you respond to people you don't know about htings you've got no understanding of (i.e my experience). Maybe just re-read these exchanges, cringe a little, and review how quickly you descending into emotional whittering.

So why live there? — apokrisis

I am legally obliged from two angles (my son and step-son). I am Irish, and born in England.

Nothing you have said makes any sense. — apokrisis

You've seemed to respond adequately to most of it. Maybe just don't purposefully be a dick lmao.

I am an "asshole" when walking, cycling, driving.

But it is not a joke, it is actually not my fault. Everybody in this city is an idiot, except me. So I have to tell grown adults not to park their queer little scooters in front of garage doors. It doesn't matter whether the garage is mine or not.

I am Irish, and born in England. — AmadeusD

So a cat born in a barn is not a cow? Curious. Food for thought.

More contentless ranting.

The traffic noise is pervasive and constant, multi-lane highways cut through neighbourhoods right into the city centre, creating an oppressive atmosphere for anyone who is not in a car, and pedestrians and cyclists are forced go out of their way to find underpasses and bridges to get about unless they go underground. — Jamal

Yeah, that's changing in some cities. When they start appropriating bike lanes on a busy street lined with commercial establishments, it removes the heavy, heavy street parked cars that have become a nuisance to safety and comfort. Developers keep attracting restaurants without enough parking, and restaurants rely on street parking for patrons.

oppressive atmosphere for anyone who is not in a car — Jamal

I find this a very, very weird take. Why would it oppressive to not be in a car? I didn't drive until I was about 26 and have never in my life felt that being in a metropolitan city was oppressive. Do you not think this is more to do with your disposition than anything about the infrastructure?

I can't grasp what you're saying. — AmadeusD

I blame your utter insanity.

The OP was not a hit and run. I promise I'll come back and respond to some of what's been said.

Also, I'll remove any more posts that include personal abuse.

I hate New Zealand. It's an awful country in almost all ways except landscape. You wont get me to care. — AmadeusD

Don't be ungrateful to the country that allows you to reside there. I dislike this kind of behaviour and attitude. It is OK to assume that every country has pros and cons, but mate, you cannot have that animosity with New Zealand. Fine, I have never been there. But I guess it is a developed nation in every sense. Do your kids feel insecure when they come back from school, for example? Is the system so corrupt that it is impossible to manage things with public administration?

You say that the public transport of NZ is a 'laughing stock'. Well, I invite you to come here and go to Extremadura or Jaén where there are no trains. The bus service is good but slow, and the trips to Madrid take more than they should.

Every rich and developed nation should have an acceptable train and bus system. Cars are a trap to make people feel the fallacy of 'freedom' because they are not sharing space with others. This is very stupid. I am not forced to buy a car, but it is clear that my country is forced to make public transport possible. Do you get it?

So, don't be ungrateful to NZ. I am sure this wonderful country provides you with all of the public services you and your family require.

You say that the public transport of NZ is a 'laughing stock'. Well, I invite you to come here and go to Extremadura or Jaén where there are no trains. — javi2541997

The city Amadeus complains about in fact took inspiration from Seville’s “tactical urbanism” approach to start rolling out a rough and ready cycleway network in 2015. It was never going to get funded for a properly engineered separation of traffic modes - such as getting cyclists out of bus lanes. So it decided to just plunge in and get it done how it could.

In just a few years, Seville had seen cycling jump from 0.5% of trips to 7%. It was a huge change but also one that felt realistic and achievable for Wellington.

This budget approach finally got funded in Wellington’s long term plan in 2021. A goal of 166km new cycleways in 10 years. But already a change in shade of government has seen that funding trimmed.

The city Amadeus complains about in fact took inspiration from Seville’s “tactical urbanism” approach to start rolling out a rough and ready cycleway network in 2015. — apokrisis

Yes, Seville has done a great job over the past few years. Madrid also funded a project to switch the city into a more walkable and cycling mode. It was not easy in the beginning, because both cities were designed to hold public buildings and neighbours near them. Our city planners didn't even consider the fact of using bikes, but at least Madrid always had done a good effort regarding trains.

Aside from major cities and Basque country, there are many places that lack access to basic, quality transport. It's a shame. Amadeus complained about New Zealand public transport, but how many people in Teruel or Jaén would give for some of it!

A solution inbetween trains and buses:

I hate cars.

They cost too much money. They break a lot, which costs more money. And they waste fuel which is a resource we ought use more carefully.

I also hate that I pretty much have to have one because it feels like another form of rent: just an endless money pit that depreciates and yet you have to maintain it in order to get to work.

but how many people in Teruel or Jaén would give for some of it! — javi2541997

I wondered what the problem might be in Spain and found out that Jaén is a weird story of building a whole new tram network in 2010 and then mothballing it – apparently because of some competition dispute with the local bus company, then a change in regional government who felt the subsidies were too expensive.

This seems another illustration of the general problem for sane transport planning. The world is torn between the individual solution and the state solution.

Everyone would prefer to be driving SUVs on empty highways, leaving their steeds in a free parking space, and then enjoy ambling about in some quaint walkable neighbourhood whose street map was laid out in medieval times.

Meanwhile traffic planners are trying to push through highly engineered mass transit and multimodal retrofits that give some hope of a greener approach to a more liveable urban future.

The first dream is literally insane. The second demands societies willing to make 20 to 30 year financial commitments in a world that is changing at a faster rate than even that.

:up: I hear you, Brother.