Cool thread.
I have long been fascinated by the ideas of the linear city as conceived by Soria and the Arterial arcology of Paulo Soleri. They present a perspective to urban design that tries to imagine a more human space between technical structures. Maybe not immediately practical but a space for thinking.

So do you mean actual linear cities - like the disastrous Neom project - or those with a natural fractal hierarchy that maximises the efficiency of its flows?

One is very mechanical in conception - although repetitive segmentation works well for worms and other creatures of the simplest design. The other is the organic or ecological form that nature would seek to impose on any complexly organised structure. Like our mammalian bodies or actual cities that are functionally organised into organ systems.

As a system grows large, it must have a large brain at the centre of its distributed nervous system, a large pair of lungs at the centre of its gaseous exchange system, a large heart at the centre of its blood circulation system, etc.

A worm has small and simple versions of all these things. A tube just needs its entrance and exit. The centre of a worm’s various organ systems take up very little more room than their periphery and so a segmented design is good enough. The same as a strip mall along a highway or straggle of houses making the initial settlement along a new rail stop.

But to become complex and well integrated requires a more messy looking break up into functional geographies. Cities with universities, malls and abattoirs. Cities that have many large functional centres as well as the finer mesh as each of these functional centres spreads its own regulatory flow network across the wider collective body.

London for example had a problem that its supermarkets were getting ever larger and so spaced out, and yet road congestion was getting ever worse. This was literally the issue when I thought enough was enough. My routine had become driving to the supermarket before it opened on a Saturday morning or just not go at all.

But go back now and tiny supermarkets are run by the same chains on every corner. A hierarchy of supermarket size fixed at least that one problem.

So arterial arcology may sound linear, but that is different from segmented and speaks to the fractal principles of hierarchical design. Which is standard wisdom in urban planning - if only voters and politicians would allow them get on and implement it.

In NZ, there is another illustrative example. The case to retrofit a light rail network was financially justified as it would immediately make the housing along the path a more attractive corridor. An easy way to revitalise now aging inner suburbs. But it didn’t fly as no one likes change and good ideas can always be delayed to some other year.

Some 20 years later has come the crisis response. Central government has slyly slipped through laws to just tear up local council urban planning. Carefully organised building regulations - those with a hierarchy of protections that were eagerly voted for because of NIMBY self-interest - have just been vapourised. Now the elegant villa in the tree lined street can suddenly find two three storey apartment blocks - made of shit panelling and with a concrete pad for half a dozen cars - looming over it within a year.

One way or another, the hierarchical imperative of nature is going to impose itself on our architectural forms. The only question is how much in control of the pace and the consequences do we want to be.

I also hate that I pretty much have to have one because it feels like another form of rent: just an endless money pit that depreciates and yet you have to maintain it in order to get to work. — Moliere

Ditto. I blame marketing and television for their brainwashing techniques to force people to buy cars, even if they are very young. There is the risk of them dying in a car crash because they are immature to use a car, but automobile manufacturers don't seem to really care. I even heard once that 'public transport is for poor people, but owning a car represents wealth.' If ever someone believes such a stupid spot, there is a real problem with society.

I can't recall seeing any Metro advertisements, for example. It's safer, better, electric, and compact. Television has had a negative impact on public transport perception. The level of interest shown by the motor industry in all of this is scary!

If you build a world where capitalism has no social brakes, then you get the world that deserves. Impatient drivers and frustrated transport planners are a tiny part of that larger story.

And the criticism concerning wokeism is that it is a turning of individuals against individuals by harnessing the amplification of social media. The polarisation of society into competing online mobs obsessing over finer and finer social distinctions. A diversion of political energy away from the larger story of how we all have to cooperate to share the one planet. — apokrisis

Good points. :up:

A solution inbetween trains and buses: — Lionino

Indeed. We call them trams and they run all over my city. There are 10 routes within 50 meters of my home. In my city, there are around 1,700 tram stops across 24 routes with 250 kilometres of urban tracks and a patronage of well over 200 million individual journeys a year. I do most of my reading going to and from places in trams.

So a cat born in a barn is not a cow? Curious. Food for thought. — Lionino

LMAO, nice.

I blame your utter insanity. — unenlightened

unenlightened it is :P

Don't be ungrateful to the country that allows you to reside there. — javi2541997

Are you joking, or just being weird again? This country doesn't "allow" me to reside here. It is legally obligated to accept me here.

you cannot have that animosity with New Zealand — javi2541997

Yes. Yes I can.

Do your kids feel insecure when they come back from school, for example? Is the system so corrupt that it is impossible to manage things with public administration? — javi2541997

I don't know why, or what exactly you're asking. It has nothing to do with me disliking, very strongly, living in New Zealand. It is not, in any way, relevant, to you find other faults with a different place. Dislike my attitude all you want mate.

Cars are a trap to make people feel the fallacy of 'freedom' — javi2541997

Right-o mate. Can't get on board with this type of attitude :P

So, don't be ungrateful to NZ. — javi2541997

This is inappropriate. This entire exchange is bizarre. It is not on others to influence or inform how i feel about the country in which i've lived in for 28 years.

So it decided to just plunge in and get it done how it could. — apokrisis

Which is not the worst thing in the world. (not that you've suggested this..) I've not intimated NZ is the worst country in the world. I just hate it here. That's all. Various reason, largely biases and personal disposition. Not sure what's controversial getting you lot up in arms.

Now the elegant villa in the tree lined street can suddenly find two three storey apartment blocks - made of shit panelling and with a concrete pad for half a dozen cars - looming over it within a year. — apokrisis

This seems to illustrate you're operating from the same place as i am. That's fine. You like NZ and see hopeful ways forward. I would prefer to let this country stew in its predictable small-pondedness and go elsewhere for better pasture (in many ways - public transport is low on the list - its just the subject of the thread).

Amadeus complained about New Zealand public transport, but how many people in Teruel or Jaén would give for some of it! — javi2541997

This is exactly whataboutism.

I've not intimated NZ is the worst country in the world. I just hate it here. That's all. Various reason, largely biases and personal disposition. Not sure what's controversial getting you lot up in arms. — AmadeusD

So are there countries where you would be sure that you would hate them less?

What do their transport habits look like exactly? Remembering that was the OP. Is there a city where the cyclists are never rude, allowed on pavements and yet not in bus lanes. Expand on this Shangri-La.

So are there countries where you would be sure that you would hate them less? — apokrisis

I can't be sure, obviously (i'm sure from without, i'd think this about NZ! My family certainly did). But, on best-estimations: Ireland, Italy, USA(parts thereof), Canada (parts thereof), Japan (parts thereof), Hong Kong, and many others.

Again, public transport is not a particularly large factor. You seem to be thinking that it is, and then assuming I have some utopia in mind. I don't. I just hate living in NZ. The rest can be ignored, it seems. Their travel habits don't matter to me, other than noting things like getting around NYC was infinitely easier, more fun and fulfilling than is getting around AKL (or WGT when im there). My opinions on public travel (which, in this case was specifically about the bad attitudes of cyclists who think they are paragons of morally-informed social justice or something to the point of being routinely abusive) aren't all that relevant to my hating NZ, or preferring elsewhere. Clearly, this is no longer apt for this thread. If you care, feel free to PM with any questions, but I assume its uninteresting in the extreme to you. FAir enough too.

Clearly, this is no longer apt for this thread. If you care, feel free to PM with any questions, but I assume its uninteresting in the extreme to you. — AmadeusD

Just amusing but not related to the thread. On the other hand, it did point to the real world issue of why transport planning is in a bind.

I’m not claiming NZ is paradise. But in the end, I had the choice. That makes a big difference.

the real world issue of why transport planning is in a bind. — apokrisis

I see this as an intractable problem. I think 'your' side, as it were takes the "just get on board already" take. If not, fair enough - it feels as if your solution would be to (legislate?) regulate against either single-user or less-than-five-user motor transport, so that cycling and hte like can flourish. I think this is misguided and a bit of a reversion, in terms of historical development (note: that does not make it bad).

But in the end, I had the choice. That makes a big difference. — apokrisis

This is likely relevant, but when i did have the choice I had actually saved a fund to leave (unexpected child as spanner, in this story).

it feels as if your solution would be to (legislate?) regulate against either single-user or less-than-five-user motor transport, so that cycling and hte like can flourish. — AmadeusD

NZTA’s multimodal approach was to create safe separation to allow everyone pick the transport choice they best preferred. If you can whiz to work on a bus lane or cycle lane rather than get stuck in a car, then you would be free to do so.

Of course that serve all options carrot was going to require a bit of sly stick. Such as fuel taxes rather than fuel subsidies, a limit on inner city parking, 20 kph speed limits, and any other such measure that made motorists pay the actual environmental and social costs of their preference.

So the plan was an effort to be cunning. But the car drivers still caught on. The politicians caved accordingly.

OK, mate. I now understand why you always type and posy with such anger. Living in a country that you don't like is screwed, and maybe you are frustrated every time. Reading your posts, it is more an issue regarding your attitude than the existence of NZ.

This is exactly whataboutism. — AmadeusD

It isn't. You complained about the public transport in NZ. I agree the public services of every country have pros and cons, and no one is perfect. But I stated that you have public transport, at least. There are citizens who don't know what it is like to take a bus and go to another city. You are complaining about stuff from developed and rich countries. "Ohhhh, the train of Auckland is horrendous," but you have malls, shops, streets, water, etc. Again, don't be ungrateful, mate. NZ is providing you with everything you need. Just because it is a country that cares for people and doesn't allow you to use excessively the car, doesn't mean it is the "worst" country in the world.

Ireland, Italy, USA(parts thereof), Canada (parts thereof), Japan (parts thereof), Hong Kong, and many others. — AmadeusD

Only developed and rich nations. :lol: I will not see the crank trying to live in Andalucía, Cuba, Venezuela, or Morocco. Nah, everything is messed up in NZ but no way I would raise my kids in Seville.

Yes. Yes I can. — AmadeusD

No, no. You can't. Hating the country where you live is dumb.

Thailand is awfully motonormative from two perspectives. One is that cars don't stop for pedestrians even at pedestrian crossings and the other is that cities are built for cars. E.g. In order to get to work just across the road in Bangkok, I have to first walk half a mile to get to a bridge to cross the road (there is no other way). Other cities are similarly defaced to the point where you'll be strolling around and then find yourself out of pavement and nothing to do but a major track back or risk life and limb by walking on a road with car traffic at your back and motorbikes riding at you contraflow. Forget about little green men helping, they might as well be aliens pointing you to your death. In Thailand, cars freely turn left through red lights and pedestrian go signals. My point is you can take all your "horror" stories from London or Auckland or Moscow or wherever and chuck them under an oncoming truck. They do not compare to the motorised dystopia over here. That, yes, just seems to be taken for granted by the locals.

Hating the country where you live is dumb. — javi2541997

Can we leave the guy alone now? It seems like he was just trying to be honest.

Can we leave the guy alone now? It seems like he was just trying to be honest. — Baden

No, no. Keep it coming. It's entertaining seeing other people wishing I had a different opinion about my own experiences. Its bizarre and interesting that there are minds that twisted back on themselves.

OK, mate. I now understand why you always type and posy with such anger. Living in a country that you don't like is screwed, and maybe you are frustrated every time. Reading your posts, it is more an issue regarding your attitude than the existence of NZ. — javi2541997

I have no idea what you even think you're saying, but I don't post with, or carry any anger. If that's your interpretation of me, I'd just suggest you grow up and realise youre on an internet forum dedicated to argumentation.

It isn't. You complained about the public transport in NZ. I agree the public services of every country have pros and cons, and no one is perfect. — javi2541997

That is whataboutism. Sorry bud.

Again, don't be ungrateful, mate. — javi2541997

I am sorry Javi, but you have precisely zero standing, perspective, or right to make proclamations about my experiences and reactions to my own country. This is just risible on your part.

Just because it is a country that cares for people and doesn't allow you to use excessively the car, doesn't mean it is the "worst" country in the world. — javi2541997

Didn't say it was - what are you on about?

Only developed and rich nations. :lol: I will not see the crank trying to live in Andalucía, Cuba, Venezuela, or Morocco. Nah, everything is messed up in NZ but no way I would raise my kids in Seville. — javi2541997

So, either you're making absolutely no sense or you want me to buy into whataboutism again. No thanks. I'll maintain my actual stance on my actual country instead of making shit up.

No, no. You can't. Hating the country where you live is dumb. — javi2541997

No, no it isn't. It is the case. Clearly, you are not apt to understand that my position on my own country has precisely zero to do with you. It doesn't, and you'd do well to stop pretending it does.

Er, let's stay on topic. You are both entitled to your opinions on this, but it doesn't really matter.