• TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I was just looking at an image of the famous symbol of Taoism - the Yin Yang circle. I haven't read enough to expound a detailed explanation of the symbol BUT I only want to share what the symbol means to me.

    What always confused me was the opposite colored small circles that sit in the middle of the part of the opposite color. There's a black circle in the middle of the white part of the symbol and a white circle in the black part of the symbol.

    The two main opposite colored parts of the symbol are comprehensible as a balance between extremes - resonating with the Buddha's middle path philosophy. It also represents a dualistic understanding of life and nature - a play of opposing forces and the equilibrium such an interaction represents.

    I take it that, in a very basic sense, the white represents the good and the black represents evil. However, what of the ''errant'' smaller black and white circles? Does it mean that extreme goodness is bad and vice versa?

    I think it does. The following quote suggests somethig along this line: Rhiannon Pursall said ''A lot of children do not recognise insects as animals. They stamp on ants and torture spiders''. Children are the epitome of innocence, having only a rudimentary understanding of good and evil. Their ''cruelty'' to insects is born out of innocence. Does this mean that evil people like Hitler, Stalin, etc. were actually ''innocent''? They lacked a moral compass just as children lack it and therefore, they're ''innocent'' (read: good) in some sense of the word.

    Let's look at the other side of the coin. ''Good'' people, as generally understood, are considered selfless. However, when analyzed, their goodness arises from an expectation of a ''reward'' either in this life or in the afterlife. So, it is ''true'' that extreme goodness is actually bad because, at the end, the ''good'' have selfish reasons.

    Am I understanding this correctly?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    It is not necessary to apply a value judgement to Black and White. No more than value judgements can be applied to wave crests and troughs. They both must exist in order to manifest a wave and life is wave movements.

    I don't believe the smaller circles were included in a versions of the ancient Dao symbol, but for me the connotation would be that within one opposite there also exists the other. Sort of an infinite loop.
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    I take it that, in a very basic sense, the white represents the good and the black represents evil.TheMadFool

    No, it doesn't. It's more like the 0 and 1 of computing. Evil is if anything represented by trying to compute with only ones and no zeros, but it is really a foreign concept to Chinese tradition
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    No, it doesn't. It's more like the 0 and 1 of computing. Evil is if anything represented by trying to compute with only ones and no zeros, but it is really a foreign concept to Chinese traditionunenlightened

    And that basically tells us to avoid extremes which can then be extended, I think quite reasonably, onto the good-evil duality(?)
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    And that basically tells us to avoid extremes which can then be extended, I think quite reasonably, onto the good-evil duality(?)TheMadFool

    I never took it as a prescription, but as a description.

    The idea is both that nothing is "purely" x or y, and that the interplay of opposites or complements is such that each contains seeds of the other, so to speak.
  • 0 thru 9
    1.5k
    I'll agree with the others. Is daytime or night evil? Summer or winter? Male or female? Of course not. I believe it was Zarathustra who by legend came up with the first good/evil duality. Could be wrong. But of course poor mysterious quiet beautiful dark Yin usually gets saddled with the "evil" label, to the detriment of all. To the extent a culture avoids this error, they live in a harmonious balance of the cosmic energies. Or so i most sincerely believe, having unfortunately never seen such a society.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I never took it as a prescription, but as a description.Terrapin Station

    That's odd. The prescription is determined by the description, don't you think? Otherwise, given human propensity for lofty things such as meaning of life, we'd be running (foolishly?) into the walls of impossibility.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    The idea is both that nothing is "purely" x or y, and that the interplay of opposites or complements is such that each contains seeds of the other, so to speak.Terrapin Station

    That's exactly what I mean (couldn't put it as well). So, given that interpretation, don't you think evil personalities (Hitler, Stalin, etc.) have in them a certain kind of ''innocence'' that redeems them? Similarly, isn't there ''evil'' in being too good, after all there's a hidden agenda - that of reward in the afterlife? This description therefore suggests the prescription, that of a balance between the two extremes.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I agree that it's quite arbitrary that the ''dark'' connote evil. I don't know for sure why this is so. Perhaps it's an ancient intuition - the dark hides predators.


    The main point however is the meaning of Yin-Yang, in particular the small circles (black in the white and white in the black). What does that signify?
  • Wosret
    3.4k
    Ever play elder scrolls? The dark brotherhood asks you a question when you knock on the door, "what is the world's greatest delusion?", the answer they want is "innocence". The reason for this seems obvious to me. You can't indiscriminately kill people for money unless you believe that no one is truly innocent.

    Perhaps the dot in the center (not that this one is obvious to me) is maybe when something is surrounded in light, the core is darkness, and maybe when something is surrounded by darkness, the core is light.
  • Wayfarer
    20.6k
    I take it that, in a very basic sense, the white represents the good and the black represents evil.TheMadFool

    Generally, your post is OK, except for this line.

    I have read that the derivation of white and black was originally the sunlit vs the shady side of a valley. It also comes to mean pairs of opposed dualities, of which I suppose 'good and evil' are one example. But I don't think anywhere in the Tao Te Ching, these are referred to as 'good and evil', as such. I think that is a very Christian/theistic/Western perspective on it, which is quite alien to the Taoists.

    Really, the Tao Te Ching is a marvellous text and ought to be read by everyone. So are some of the other Taoist classics, notably Chuang-Tzu, translated by Burton Watson.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    That's odd. The prescription is determined by the description, don't you think?TheMadFool

    No--I'm rather against that view, which I see as the source of conformism, "purism" etc.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    That's exactly what I mean (couldn't put it as well). So, given that interpretation, don't you think evil personalities (Hitler, Stalin, etc.) have in them a certain kind of ''innocence'' that redeems them? Similarly, isn't there ''evil'' in being too good, after all there's a hidden agenda - that of reward in the afterlife? This description therefore suggests the prescription, that of a balance between the two extremes.TheMadFool

    Well, I'd definitely say that no one is "just good" or "just evil." (I wouldn't actually say that anyone is "evil," except for rhetorical effect on rare occasions, as I see that term as religious-oriented.)
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    no one is truly innocent.Wosret

    I think I'm taking this out of context of the OP but it's an interesting point of view which I'd like to discuss.

    A problem with all religions has always been reconciling the suffering that is obvious in our world with an all-good deity. Abrahamic religions, if I've understood correctly, face the greatest challenge from the undeniable presence of suffering in the world - they even have a term for this viz. the problem of evil.

    I find it strange though that a solution for the problem of evil presents itself in the Abrahamic religions to wit the concept of original sin. A simple conception, perhaps simplistic, of which would be we're all sinners from birth. This is never, perhaps I'm mistaken, proffered as a solution. Probably the idea of inheritable sin is equally problematic.

    One religion that I think has satisfactorily solved the problem of evil is Buddhism. With its concept of rebirth and Karma our circumstances, good or bad, are simply the effects of our past deeds. Delete the all-good deity, solve the problem of evil.
  • Wosret
    3.4k


    Solved the problem of suffering by pulling people from their families to keep fucking images alive? Great success.
  • 0 thru 9
    1.5k

    The "dots" in the Yin/Yang symbol, to me, represent the interbeing and interpenetration of both halves.
    They are not enemies or even in competition with each other. The darkest night can have a bright moon. The brighter the sunlight, the darker the shade. It is said that a person can become enlightened by meditating upon the Yin/Yang symbol, fwiw.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Solved the problem of suffering by pulling people from their families to keep fucking images alive? Great success.Wosret

    I guess you don't like religion.
  • Wosret
    3.4k


    I don't like proclaimed super-humans and mediators, no.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I don't like proclaimed super-humans and mediators, noWosret

    Is your issue with the messenger only or do you not the like the message too?
  • Wosret
    3.4k


    Depends on the message.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I think that is a very Christian/theistic/Western perspective on it, which is quite alien to the Taoists.Wayfarer

    Then is there something more important than being good and shunning evil? Your comment suggests that Taoism is something different.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Depends on the message.Wosret

    Religion is, generally speaking, about love and peace.
  • Wosret
    3.4k


    Yeah, people definitely love speaking about those things.
  • 0 thru 9
    1.5k

    From my very limited understanding of Taoism... i would say that goodness arises when the energies are in harmony, at least from a human perspective. Evil (so to speak) would be an imbalance. And they used many methods and means to think of and rebalance energy, such as the Five Elements, Feng Shui, Qigong, TCM, and many more, at various stages of history. But one could say that outside of the human realm (if that could be imagined) there is no imbalance really, only the temporary appearance of imbalance.

    Again, my two cents in a very small nutshell! Thanks for your questions and replies. :)
  • 0 thru 9
    1.5k
    Also... the 81 short chapters of the Tao Te Ching are to me at least an almost boundless written expression and/or equivalent of the Taijitu, known as the symbol of the yin and the yang. To paraphrase the saying about chess- an hour to read, a lifetime to master and ponder.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    They even do - Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, etc.
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