The victims of thieves than the perpetrators of theft. The victims of violence and rape are deserving of more compassion then the perpetrators of violence and rape and the victims of online misogynistic abuse are deserving of more compassion than the perpetrators. — Baden
You don't get moral brownie points for a pseudo-Jesus act that pretends they are all the same. — Baden
Why not play into this? Because we have set up this Manichean distinction, wherein they are purely victimizers, i.e. the enemy we should fight at all cost, VS the victims we should protect at all cost? Can't they be both victims and victimizers, as they appear to be?
Life isn't fair, but life being unfair doesn't equate to there being a victimizer. To "play into this" notion that incels are victims doesn't seem likely to get incels out of the victim mentality that is a big part of the problem they have. Acknowledging to an incel that life isn't fair and perhaps they did get the short stick in some regards I'd go along with. However, what seems likely to me to be most beneficial for the incel (and society at large) is for the incel to stop obsessing about being a victim, and start learning whatever they need to learn to improve their social competence. — wonderer1
As an aside, does anyone want to venture a guess as to what percentage of members of this forum believe in libertarian free will, determinism, and anything in between? — wonderer1
Yeah I mostly agree with this, I do wonder (in light of you question about determinism) how relevant the distinction is that we seem to be making between unfairness caused by non-human factors and unfairness cause by human actors.
I think a small majority maybe theoretically is some kind of compatibilist determinist, but in practice, in their moral views, most are more on the side of libertarian free will it seems. I mean, I would also call it a useful or even necessary illusion probably, if I was pushed on it.
Perhaps it makes sense to see incels as people whose recognition that there is unfairness is valid, but who fail to see the unfairness as being the result of the nature and nurture that resulted in them being an incel, and mistakenly attribute the unfairness to women? — wonderer1
Yes, I would add to that, they probably originally started from the equally false notion that they themselves were entirely to blame for their failure... and then, to feel better about themselves, invented other stories that shifts the blame from themselves to women or society at large maybe. Blaming the physical world, or acknowledging it as a cause, doesn't quite seem to cut it in our psychology, or maybe that's just the way we are taught to think as a result of being raised in a moralizing culture.
I'm wondering why the topic of incels, this legion of unattractive toads, is so popular a thread on TPF. — BC
The one constant is: you can't tell people anything they're determined not to know. — Vera Mont
It's ironic you should say that. I think the same can be said for feminism.
Knowledge/wisdom falling on deaf ears is considered "ignorance." — Benj96
others downfall is their success — Benj96
For me society/social cohesion is born of and propagated by a permanent state of autocorrection. Re-evaluation and implementation of corrective measures to bring things back to balance. — Benj96
Close to right-wing nut job territory? I don’t think so. — Jamal
1. Incels or proto-incels feel loneliness in three ways: in terms of intimacy, friends, and social status. — Jamal
I also interpreted it like this. But I believe there's an additional element; those three deficiencies get internalised and seen as universal/essential to the proto-incel. Universal in the sense that reality will always treat them that way; they can give up or adapt. Essential in the sense that reality will treat them that way due to their own personal deficiencies relative to perceived norms. — fdrake
Yes, that makes sense, although I doubt this is always present before joining up. Intuitively I’d expect some of them to join while still thinking they’re just going through a bad patch, only universalizing and essentializing it during their indoctrination. — Jamal
Maybe such thoughts turn to misogyny when the intrusive thoughts become egosyntonic. When anger becomes justice.
A scary thought. But then … how and when does that happen? — Jamal
Daryl Davis, a black musician, appears to have an approach that works for him. I've read that he convinced 200 KKK members to disrobe, one by one, through befriending them. I wonder how much of that is due to the power of music.If condemnation has no significant effect, what does? I wish I knew. Don't we all? — BC
However, I’m wary of answers that go something like this: lonely young men are being turned into misogynists by reactionary patriarchal ideology — Jamal
to which they’re being exposed because of the internet. I mean, I think that’s true, but (a) it might deflect the sociological questions, and (b) it might fail to appreciate the ideology as itself something new.
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