Don't take it too seriously Vera Mont, It wasn't meant that way. — ChatteringMonkey

However, to a great many people receiving daily threats, and those who have already been attacked, it is very serious indeed. The fact that the 'movement' is spreading, growing, recruiting

Four clicks on an incognito browser is all it takes for YouTube to churn up a video about, as the host puts it, “embracing the idea of violence” in a society that “despises” what it means to be a man
https://globalnews.ca/news/8508795/canada-social-media-algorithm-reform/

and increasingly violent in its rhetoric is very serious.

So, involuntary? No. Not definitively. An obstacle. — Benj96

I'm sure lots of people have problems around sex, sexuality, and the need for love.
That wasn't my concern. I just wish people would ask more often: Is what somebody claims on the internet necessarily the truth, or any version of a truth? What is your reason for believing or disbelieving it? What is your reason for extrapolating it to a version you can understand and sympathize with?

because they are almost by definition socially inept, unattractive etc. and we have some kind of biological preference for the attractive and the successful. — ChatteringMonkey

So you and others keep saying. How do you know? What does "almost by definition" actually mean? Might there not be motivations other than self-pity involved?

I would argue that Incels will never gain any amount of social power to sufficiently alter the culture so it would become damaging to women and our culture as a whole... — ChatteringMonkey

I've heard that argued about some groups who have since done a good deal of damage. ISIS comes to mind... Society as whole might recover from them; the direct casualties will not. I consider poisoning a large segment of the next generation of men to the whole concept of healthy relationships as a damage.

I think this is step one for understanding and dealing with the situation. Conflating those two groups isn't helpful. Both may experience self-loathing but the characteristic trait of incels is that they see women as animals to be used and abused for their pleasure and resent any social structure that prevents that. — Baden

what I think is important to understand is that the incel movement is not part of the counter-culture, it is part of the mainstream, just as rape is, and just as laws against abortion are. They all function to control women's sexuality in society in support of patriarchy. They are part of the system of punishment for women that are not under the control of a man.

Probably the most succinct way I can put it is that sympathising with incels--in their developed online form--is akin to sympathising with white supremacists because black people won't be their slaves or with neo-Nazis because they can't put Jews in concentration camps. There is a point where compassion is not the appropriate response. — Baden

I really wasn't aware of the organized effort of this group in celebrating their failures and then blaming it on women, but I took the term "incel" to more so identify with the disenfrachised male. I researched it some to learn they are more a malicious group than I realized. To the extent an incel is the group identified more formally, fuck them. To the extent they are more just a group of disenfranchised males unable to find a partner, that's what my posts are meant to reference.

It's hard to fathom how vicious their organized online incarnation is but it seems the nature of such groups in such media is to distill down to the most potent form.

Maybe counter-culture vs mainstream is not the right binary and we should talk of explicit and implied culture or something. I'm not sure, but certainly "counter-culture" insofar as it implies a threat to dominant social power structures is utterly antithetical to a phenomenon that, running with the metaphor above, reflects patriarchy in its most distilled form. At the very least that might be a fruitful topic for further debate and analysis here.

We used to say 'backlash', but this looks to me broader deeper and more insidious.

However, to a great many people receiving daily threats, and those who have already been attacked, it is very serious indeed. The fact that the 'movement' is spreading, growing, recruiting
Four clicks on an incognito browser is all it takes for YouTube to churn up a video about, as the host puts it, “embracing the idea of violence” in a society that “despises” what it means to be a manhttps://globalnews.ca/news/8508795/canada-social-media-algorithm-reform/
and increasingly violent in its rhetoric is very serious. — Vera Mont

I guess I would doubt the degree to which the Incel-movement has an additional effect on these issues. Violence and rape have been a part of our history since the beginning. I don't think we need organisations and/or ideologies to have this be an issue.

because they are almost by definition socially inept, unattractive etc. and we have some kind of biological preference for the attractive and the successful.
— ChatteringMonkey
You you keep saying. How do you know? What does "almost by definition" actually mean? Might there not motivations other than self-pity involved? — Vera Mont

Well an incel means involuntary single, so you have "almost by definition" guys we are not good at getting in relationships... that is probably because of a number of factors, but high on that list would be things like attractiveness and social skills I presume.

I think the motivation is to feel better about themselves predominately.

I would argue that Incels will never gain any amount of social power to sufficiently alter the culture so it would become damaging to women and our culture as a whole...
— ChatteringMonkey
I've heard that argued about some groups who have since done a good deal of damage. ISIS comes to mind... Society as whole might recover from them; the direct casualties will not. I consider poisoning a large segment of the next generation of men to the whole concept of healthy relationships as a damage. — Vera Mont

I suppose there is always a remote possibility, like how Christianity became a world religion against all odds and almost by accident. But still, on the list of things to worry about these days, I would put them very low on that list. There's so much and my time and energy is limited.

Maybe counter-culture vs mainstream is not the right binary — Baden

But it is the right binary.
1. The culture is patriarchal.
Therefore:
2. The counterculture is feminist.

3. The incel movement is aligned with and has the same goals as the culture.
Therefore:
The incel movement is aligned with mainstream culture.

Power is a vital aspect of the patriarchy. I don't think Incels have much power, on the contrary, they seem very much a marginal group.

So I dunno, Incels and the patriarchy just seems like a weirdly forced association.

Power is a vital aspect of the patriarchy. I don't think Incels have much power, on the contrary, they seem very much a marginal group. — ChatteringMonkey

But appearances are deceptive. Compare with the case of the poor white racist:

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game. — Dylan

Power is a vital aspect of the patriarchy. I don't think Incels have much power, on the contrary, they seem very much a marginal group.
— ChatteringMonkey

But appearances are deceptive. Compare with the case of the poor white racist:

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.
— Dylan — unenlightened

Yeah I had been thinking about this specifically. It's an interesting question. It definitely was the case that racism was an ideology of the ruling class and patriarchy originally. But I don't think I would say a white supremacist is part of the ruling ideology or patriarchy these days, if outing oneself as one would probably get you fired in a matter of days in most places. Those who have power set the rules, that is what power means in practice, therefor I'd say if you have to hide who you are, you are not a part of the powers that be.

Here's a question, would you say what is culture and what is counterculture can change over time? And what then would be the criterium by which we judge that? I'd say that criterium would be power.

Yes, I understand, and in retrospect think you're correct. It was an expression of surprise, frankly; one better made in casual conversation than here.

Here's a question, would you say what ideologies are in power, what is culture and what is counterculture, can change over time? And what then would be the criterium by which we judge that? I'd say that criterium would be power. — ChatteringMonkey

Sure, culture changes. I presume that matrilineal culture was dominant in prehistory, simply because we knew where babies come from - between the legs of a woman. Somewhere about 1-2 millennia BC. patriarchy came to dominate. But I don't know how you measure power in this context. The ruler needs an army; the chess player needs pawns, and the little people are what the culture is made of, more so than the powerful's ablity to control it.

To change the mix of metaphors; the powerful can only blow the dog- whistle that the dogs have already been trained to respond to.

Ok no worries.

Unlike many here on the forum I don't have any antipathy toward religion. I suspect you can't separate it from other social factors when considering social history. — T Clark

I agree, but admit to antipathy towards particular religions, especially the Abrahamic versions, which I think are especially exclusive and intolerant; often violently so, and similar religions which claim to be the only way.

Modern liberal democracies, while remaining patriarchal, no longer see fit to so self-describe. So, within the mainstream there's an image and reality split, of which organized incels are a symptom. Reality gives them the green light so the image can paint them as an anomaly and in this nebulous lacuna they can fester and grow. This is why I'm thinking in terms of explicit and implied cultures. I don't want to over-theorize but if you take the incel movement as a filter to view society you get neither an entirely clear nor an entirely distorted view. It's something like patriarchy suffering an identity crisis; optimistically, desperation that marks a positive transition; pessimistically, a point of extreme degradation that stabilizes a relatively less degraded whole.

Here's a question, would you say what ideologies are in power, what is culture and what is counterculture, can change over time? And what then would be the criterium by which we judge that? I'd say that criterium would be power.
— ChatteringMonkey

Sure, culture changes. I presume that matrilineal culture was dominant in prehistory, simply because we knew where babies come from - between the legs of a woman. Somewhere about 1-2 millennia BC. patriarchy came to dominate. But I don't know how you measure power in this context. The ruler needs an army; the chess player needs pawns, and the little people are what the culture is made of, more so than the powerful's ablity to control it.

To change the mix of metaphors; the powerful can only blow the dog- whistle that the dogs have already been trained to respond to. — unenlightened

I'm thinking it used to be pretty clear what the dominant culture was (or maybe this is just the benefit of hindsight), but now not so much these days... we are left with a lot of splintering and polarization. Looking back maybe this will turn out to be a transitional period.

Good post.

Modern liberal democracies, while remaining patriarchal, no longer see fit to so self-describe. — Baden

if you take the incel movement as a filter to view society you get neither an entirely clear nor an entirely distorted view. — Baden

If you listen to the rhetoric, you get a totally distorted view where Kings and queens and politicians and functionaries are all selflessly "serving" civil society.

If you listen to the rhetoric, rape is a terrible crime that must be a top priority to investigate and prosecute.

If you listen to the rhetoric, God, himself is a suffering servant, and He has appointed the great and the good to wisely rule over the people.

The way doublespeak works is that the preaching is "It doesn't matter whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." but the practice is that it doesn't matter if you cheat as long as you win. This is mainstream culture, and as old as politics and patriarchy. Rape is a terrible punishment for wayward women, that is rarely itself punished because it 'encourages the others'. The incel movement is patriarchy without the bullshit – patriarchy exposed. OF COURSE, no patriarch will admit this, even to themselves. We are lovers of women, not haters.

I've no idea why it's so commonplace. My intuition asks that if self loathing is commonplace, what makes so many cis het white men hate themselves? — fdrake

I don't think it's just men, I think it's all kinds of people - perhaps everyone to some extent. It just so happens we are talking about a particular manifestation that is specific to men. Societal expectations are hard to deal with. That's certainly true for me and it has had a damaging effect on my life and happiness. I've been fortunate in how things have worked out. It could have been otherwise.

The incel is male, and self-defining as disempowered ( because 'involuntary') as a sexually active person. This immediately implies that there is a male need/right to heterosexual sex that society, (women specifically,) ought to provide and does not. — unenlightened

I don't think this is true at all. Feeling disempowered doesn't imply anything. It is a common and understandable reaction to an unsatisfying life.

A well-thought-out and humane post.

Feeling disempowered doesn't imply anything. — T Clark

Feeling disempowered implies feeling a desire or need for power. Do you feel wingless? Probably not unless you wish you were a butterfly or an angel or a pilot or something.

I actually asked the spokesman of the the Incel-movement these questions, and he told me that they want nothing less than world-domination. — ChatteringMonkey

A few years ago there was a nasty, bitter discussion which proposed the same measures you are describing, but with the roles reversed - only women would be allowed and men would be allowed to die out. It was called, ironically enough, "A plan for world peace" and it was started, ironically enough, by a man. The thread has been deleted, but there is a discussion I started in response.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/3366/should-a-proposal-to-eliminate-men-from-society-be-allowed-on-the-forum/p1

Feeling disempowered implies feeling a desire or need for power. — unenlightened

Perhaps, but it doesn't imply "...that there is a male need/right to heterosexual sex that society, (women specifically,) ought to provide and does not.

Perhaps, but it doesn't imply "...that there is a male need/right to heterosexual sex that society, (women specifically,) ought to provide and does not. — T Clark

No, that's implied by the other half of the word IN(voluntary)CEL(ibate). The complaint is that they are disempowered from heterosexual sex. Dude, It's looking like you have no idea what is being talked about. 8 pages in that is not a great look.

I have a theory that very few people are involuntarily celibate, and that most who identify as incel or femcel are in fact voluntarily celibate. They may not want to admit this, but if they have given up in frustration and then spend their time on the internet complaining, that is itself a choice. Also, the availability of male and female escorts (i.e. prostitutes) mean very few people have to be involuntarily celibate. That may not be the ideal way to avoid celibacy, but there is no denying it is an option. People choose to spend their time online amongst like-minded people complaining about how unfair society is because they don't have the best or broadest choices of mates. But most of them could probably get mates if they applied themselves. You have to put yourself out there and be willing to risk more rejection, though. I remember when I was young and went through a bad break up and I was working as a meat cutter at a restaurant. A guy I worked with went through a similar experience, and we commiserated about how we were wronged by women. We did the usual toxic male complaining about all women being selfish, gold-diggers, etc. We joked about creating the "He-Man Woman-Haters Club" which was a reference to the old TV show THE LITTLE RASCALS. Neither of us actually hated women, or would swear them off for long, but it was a way of coping psychologically with a very difficult phase of life. Dealing with rejection is not easy. It takes a while to work through that psychologically. It's very tempting to want to give up and avoid that pain and disappointment altogether, sometimes. The online incel movement occurs because the internet allows this phase to be prolonged, expanded and justified more than before. But this is not a new phenomenon at all, and it's fairly normal and temporary phase in most cases... Just ask Spanky and Alfalfa...

It's looking like you have no idea what is being talked about. 8 pages in that is not a great look. — unenlightened

The fact I don't agree with a lot of what is being written here is not a sign I don't understand what is being discussed. And I haven't been aiming for "a great look." You are one of the people I respect most here on the forum, but I don't appreciate you trying to shame me into shutting up. The fact that you, of all people, have done that shows me it is important to keep trying to get my points across.

Then you need to start being a bit more clear what it is you disagree with and on what basis.

Then you need to start being a bit more clear what it is you disagree with and on what basis. — unenlightened

An old joke - Shut up he explained.