• Amity
    4.6k
    Thoughts arising from the Deep Songs thread.
    George Harrison's 'Give Me Hope (Give Me Peace On Earth)':

    GIVE ME LOVE. Sometimes you open your mouth and you don't know what you are going to say, and whatever comes out is the starting point. If that happens and you are lucky - it can usually be turned into a song. This song is a prayer and personal statement between me, the Lord, and whoever likes it. — George Harrison

    As someone who lost religious faith some time ago, I wondered about any secular songs about 'hope' and if they could be seen as a kind of 'prayer'. How spiritual is the secular?
    The lyrics are about hope, love and peace:
    Give me hope, help me cope with this heavy load
    Trying to touch and reach you with heart and soul
    — George Harrison

    To focus on 'hope'. Is it something that is given, and if so, by whom? I think of it as both a feeling and a doing. It arises within ourselves and relates to others.

    I've already written something about it in the 'Deciding what to do' thread, re Stoicism:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13648/deciding-what-to-do

    I disagree with Epictetus:
    “Don’t hope that events will turn out the way you want, welcome events in whichever way they happen: this is the path to peace.” Epictetus. Enchiridion. 8.
    — Stoicism

    I see hope as a motivational force. Hope for the best, expect or plan for the worse...
    — Amity

    This reminded me of a previous discussion started by @T Clark
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10427/my-favorite-verses-in-the-tao-te-ching/p1

    My question to those who have some knowledge/experience:
    What, if any, similarities do Stoicism and Taoism have when it comes to hope?
    Is there a particular philosopher you think best tells the story of hope?
    To bring love and peace, if not to the world, then one's heart...and mind.

    From one translation of the Tao Te Ching
    13
    Success is as dangerous as failure.
    Hope is as hollow as fear.

    What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
    Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
    you position is shaky.
    When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
    you will always keep your balance.

    What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
    Hope and fear are both phantoms
    that arise from thinking of the self.
    When we don't see the self as self,
    what do we have to fear?

    See the world as your self.
    Have faith in the way things are.
    Love the world as your self;
    then you can care for all things.
    Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell

    [my bolds]
    'Hope is as hollow as fear'
    Is this true?
    Perhaps I misunderstand the message of Stoicism and Taoism but, as things stand, I disagree.
    Can anyone help me better understand what is meant?

    How is hope shown? How many ways do we share what we mean and hope to be understood?
    Here's an example:
    Coronavirus: Covid nurses' song of hope from Italy

    Hope was the defining element of her song but not every line is positive.

    One line - We're fighting this together with you, but don't call us heroes - reflects her response to the singing on balconies in support of health workers.

    "They shouted 'You nurses are heroes! You're our saviours!' But we've always been there for people; it shouldn't have taken a situation like this to recognise what we do. I found it incredibly sad. I didn't feel gratified."
    [...]
    Light up the Rainbow was released last month. It is a poignant time for the song to come out. Bologna is once again in a red zone, with hospitals at breaking point and waiting lists for intensive care.
    "The situation's really devastating, but I refuse to be sucked into negativity and pessimism," says Simona. I want to continue with my optimism because I can see a light at the end of this tunnel, just as I see a rainbow."
    BBC News - Coronavirus: Covid Nurses' song of hope from Italy



    What is your experience of hope as a feeling, action or philosophical concept?
    Where have you expressed or found it?
    Did you find it 'hollow as fear'?
  • universeness
    6.3k
    Hope destroys fear. Hope is far more powerful than love or evil imo. Hope allows you to die, and as you die, you can still maintain a belief that our species will do better in the future. Even those who have experienced holocaust and ethnic cleansing, can demonstrate hope, often, even before they mention love or hate or revenge.
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    Hope is as hollow as fear.Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell

    One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best. Better to keep the mind silent and stay in the present. On a practical level, of course one has to foresee and prepare - it is the identification that is unnecessary and causes the suffering of hope and fear.

    Spirituality is presence, secularity is absence of mind in thought and imagination.

    Hope destroys fear.universeness

    No hope and fear always arise together; one hopes to win and fears to lose. What you claim here is the gambler's fallacy, that leads to addiction.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    What you claim here is the gambler's fallacy, that leads to addiction.unenlightened

    Ok, in that case, I fully recommend addiction to hope! It will destroy your fears!
    I remain hopeful that most people can defeat any compulsion to become addicted to gambling.
    If some can't, then I remain hopeful that we can put supports in place to 'save' those addicted to gambling.
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    I fully recommend addiction to hope!universeness

    The triumph of religion over spirituality.
  • universeness
    6.3k

    The triumph of human hope over pernicious religious or spiritual woo woo.
    We need human spirit yes. But I prefer the original meaning of spirit as Carl Sagan described it, 'animated.'
  • 180 Proof
    14k
    "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution." ~Emma Goldman

    What is your experience of hope as a feeling, action or philosophical concept?Amity
    "Hope as a feeling?" Pacifer, or placebo, for fear

    "Hope as an action?" Denying risk or improbability.

    "Hope as a philosophical concept?" The essential 'triumph of imagination over intelligence'.

    Where have you expressed or found it?
    In a foxhole there is no "hope" – there's only courage or tears (or both).

    Did you find it 'hollow as fear'?
    More like, as futile as regret.

    :death:

    "We invented the blues; Europeans invented psychoanalysis. You invent what you need."
    ~Albert Murray

    "Without music, life would be a mistake... I would only believe in a God who knew how to dance." ~Freddy Zarathustra

    :flower:

    As someone who lost religious faith some time ago, I wondered about any secular songs about 'hope' and if they could be seen as a kind of 'prayer'. How spiritual is the secular?
    From Latin for "song" – cantus, cantare, canto – comes, in English, chant, enchant and incantation which connotes, for me, to celebrate or express joy, whether in a major or minor key. So to the degree "the secular" is open to different, even incommensurate, expressions of joy, "the secular is spiritual" as far as I'm concerned (though in practice, far more sectarian or commercial than "spiritual").

    George Harrison's 'incantations' were/are exceptions and exceptional moments in the maelstrom of sing-a-long profanities which have always been the bread and butter of tin-pan alley. For decades I've tried to curate my own library of musical joys which, unlike "hope", I find that joy motivates courage.

    One must learn to love.— This is what happens to us in music: first one has to learn to hear a figure and melody at all, to detect and distinguish it, to isolate it and delimit it as a separate life; then it requires some exertion and good will to tolerate it in spite of its strangeness, to be patient with its appearance and expression, and kindhearted about its oddity:—finally there comes a moment when we are used to it, when we wait for it, when we sense that we should miss it if it were missing: and now it continues to compel and enchant us relentlessly until we have become its humble and enraptured lovers who desire nothing better from the world than it and only it.— But that is what happens to us not only in music: that is how we have learned to love all things that we now love. In the end we are always rewarded for our good will, our patience, fairmindedness, and gentleness with what is strange; gradually, it sheds its veil and turns out to be a new and indescribable beauty:—that is its thanks for our hospitality. Even those who love themselves will have learned it in this way: for there is no other way. Love, too, has to be learned. — Freddy Zarathustra
    Amor fati :hearts:

    Hope destroys fear.
    — universeness

    No hope and fear always arise together; one hopes to win and fears to lose. What you claim here is the gambler's fallacy, that leads to addiction.
    unenlightened
    Or fundamentalism.

    I prefer the original meaning of spirit as Carl Sagan described it, 'animated'.universeness
    :up:
  • universeness
    6.3k
    From Latin for "song" – cantus, cantare, canto – comes, in English, chant, enchant and incantation which connotes, for me, to celebrate or express joy, whether in a major or minor key.180 Proof

    How about this brilliant hope filled 'il canto' from Pavarotti. Excellent vid of everyday folks as well:
  • T Clark
    13k
    Success is as dangerous as failure.
    Hope is as hollow as fear.
    Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell

    These have always been two of my favorite lines from the Tao Te Ching. I've never had any trouble dispensing with hope and understanding why that is important. Fear has always been my problem. Hearing they are the same has always given me hope. Oops.
  • 180 Proof
    14k
    :smirk:

    Thanks. And in the spirit of @Amity's OP, a George Harrison 'song of hope' (or joy in a minor key) as interpreted by Nina Simone

    and this shorter mash-up remix of the same song:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7gYn8-ziaFI
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Nina was one of the greatest singers there has ever been.
    Who can doubt she really believed what she sang.
    Isn't it a pity we ALL sometimes forget to give back and see the beauty around us and in each other.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.1k

    It is sometimes argued that hope is not the best approach to life. I had an art therapist tutor who seemed to regard it as a rather futile pursuit but the problem would be that without hope it may be like giving up. The existentialists, especially Camus, spoke of living with the absurd and despair. This may be valid to some extent but it depends how far it goes.

    Also, there is the issue of hope in relation to despair, but fear also involves the aspect of faith. This need not be in the traditional religious sense but about faith in whatever path one is on, as an aspect of positive conviction. This may be important as a form of mindset, which involves clear intentionality in thinking about desired goals and not becoming defeated and engulfed by fear in an overwhelming way.

    The attitudes of peace and love may also be important in an approach to life, if consciously chosen because at times in a dog eat dog world they can become lost, and pushed to the bottom of agendas. The secular humanists pointed to such values as an ethical foundation independently of religious beliefs.
    .
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k


    :up: Hope, love, peace are intriguing ideas/sentiments. I am where I am. :broken:
  • Amity
    4.6k


    Nina's interpretation moves beyond Harrison and hits levels of intensity that I can't adequately describe.
    I had no idea. Thanks again @180 Proof for sharing one of your 'musical joys':
    For decades I've tried to curate my own library of musical joys which, unlike "hope", I find that joy motivates courage.180 Proof

    I would say that the joy felt when listening to such music shared can lift a feeling of hopelessness or despair; the love within can be enough to bring tears. The release of which enables or releases the mind - if slowly - to begin to appreciate what we've been given and what we might still have to give in return.
    A sense of peace and care. Even if fleeting...

    From Nina's interpretation:

    Just a little time, a little care
    A little note written in the air
    Just the little thank you
    We just forget to give back
    Cause we're moving too fast
    Moving too fast
    Forgetting to give back

    Keeping this in mind, I'll join in the spirit and attempt to answer all those who cared to take the time to respond. Andante.

    Before that, here are some links; a scan of hope in academia:
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hope/

    https://academic.oup.com/pq/advance-article/doi/10.1093/pq/pqac010/6582893

    Most elpistologists now agree that hope for a specific outcome involves more than just desire plus the presupposition that the outcome is possible. This paper argues that the additional element of hope is a disposition to focus on the desired outcome in a certain way. I first survey the debate about the nature of hope in the recent literature, offer objections to some important competing accounts, and describe and defend the view that hope involves a kind of focus or attention. I then suggest that this account makes sense of the intuitive thought that there are moral and pragmatic norms on hope that go beyond the norms on desires and modal presuppositions. I conclude by considering some key questions.Focus Theory of Hope - Andrew Chignell
  • Amity
    4.6k
    Hope destroys fear. Hope is far more powerful than love or evil imo. Hope allows you to die, and as you die, you can still maintain a belief that our species will do better in the future. Even those who have experienced holocaust and ethnic cleansing, can demonstrate hope, often, even before they mention love or hate or revenge.universeness

    As much as I think highly of hope, I think you grant it too much power.
    How do you even begin to measure it?
    How do you demonstrate it?
    I was once told that Fear and Desire are the 2 main motivators.
    As in:
    ...hope and fear always arise together; one hopes to win and fears to lose.unenlightened

    I wonder if it helps to view Fear and Desire as having their own spectrum and on different sides of the same coin. Hmm. Mixing structures here...
    So, different kinds and levels.
    Is hope a subset of desire or lesser in degree? I think it's more obvious when relating anxiety to fear...
    Again, same might be said for love and hate...

    I wonder if love/desire ( or even hate) is necessary before any hope can take place.
    Before we can hope for anything, we must recognise our needs or wants.
  • Amity
    4.6k
    One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best. Better to keep the mind silent and stay in the present. On a practical level, of course one has to foresee and prepare - it is the identification that is unnecessary and causes the suffering of hope and fear.

    Spirituality is presence, secularity is absence of mind in thought and imagination.
    unenlightened

    Yes. Usually, we think of hope as a future projection but it can also be an in-the-moment 'hoping'.
    And that can involve the past: I hope my mother didn't suffer too much before she died.
    However, I agree that past kind of 'hope' related to anxiety is not helpful.

    Also, there can be a natural predisposition for hope or despair.
    I'm not sure what you mean by the identification being unnecessary. Grateful for clarification.
    Secularity as 'absence of mind' doesn't make sense to me...
  • Amity
    4.6k
    Ok, in that case, I fully recommend addiction to hope! It will destroy your fears!
    I remain hopeful that most people can defeat any compulsion to become addicted to gambling.
    If some can't, then I remain hopeful that we can put supports in place to 'save' those addicted to gambling.
    universeness

    Just say "No to Hope!" - as some do.
    An all-consuming hope to win when gambling money will occupy and exacerbate any mental/physical predisposition. That will in no way destroy any fears but will decimate your bank balance, disrupt and influence actions/behaviour that will most likely lead to poverty and even homelessness.

    Any addiction or release from it relies on support. I'm with you there in pragmatic hope :100:
  • Amity
    4.6k
    We need human spirit yes. But I prefer the original meaning of spirit as Carl Sagan described it, 'animated.'universeness

    I don't know much about Sagan or the context in which he uses 'animated'.
    Does he say anything about 'hope'?
  • Amity
    4.6k

    So much here, so good :up:
    Will need to take a break now. Later...
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    I'm not sure what you mean by the identification being unnecessary. Grateful for clarification.Amity

    That's a bit complex; here is not really the place to go into it, but very briefly, identification is making a connection of identity of any sort I am British, I am aphilosopher, I am going to win the lottery - the underlined are the identities, and the connection is an emotion pride or shame hope or fear. So when I say that the identification is unnecessary, I mean that I can acknowledge the fact that I am here, writing stuff that we might call philosophy or perhaps psychology, I don't need to have an emotional attachment to it, such that I am hurt if someone calls it nonsense. Of course there is a public aspect to identity, such that if the mods think I write nonsense all the time I get thrown off the site, but again, that is only a problem to me to the extent that I am emotionally invested in the identity of philosopher.
  • Amity
    4.6k
    "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution." ~Emma Goldman180 Proof
    Didn't get much further than this.
    I shake my head as I realise my ignorance. I hadn't heard of Goldman before. After reading the wiki article, I shake my head in disbelief at her life story. How she overcame the horrendousness and was still able to 'sing' and dance:

    One of her first public talks in support of "the Cause" was in Rochester. After convincing Helena not to tell their parents of her speech, Goldman found her mind a blank once on stage. She later wrote, suddenly:[34]

    something strange happened. In a flash I saw it—every incident of my three years in Rochester: the Garson factory, its drudgery and humiliation, the failure of my marriage, the Chicago crime...I began to speak. Words I had never heard myself utter before came pouring forth, faster and faster. They came with passionate intensity...The audience had vanished, the hall itself had disappeared; I was conscious only of my own words, of my ecstatic song.
    [...]
    While dancing among fellow anarchists one evening, she was chided by an associate for her carefree demeanor. In her autobiography, Goldman wrote:[171]

    I told him to mind his own business, I was tired of having the Cause constantly thrown in my face. I did not believe that a Cause which stood for a beautiful ideal, for anarchism, for release and freedom from conventions and prejudice, should demand denial of life and joy. I insisted that our Cause could not expect me to behave as a nun and that the movement should not be turned into a cloister. If it meant that, I did not want it. "I want freedom, the right to self-expression, everybody's right to beautiful, radiant things."
    Wiki - Emma Goldman

    The epitome of hope in action.

    I must leave it here for now...
  • universeness
    6.3k
    As much as I think highly of hope, I think you grant it too much power.Amity

    No, if anything, I think I have underestimated its importance. Hope is the fundamental, that comes before love, joy etc. Your use of the word 'grant' brought this into my head from Eddie Grant:


    Gimme hope Joanna! (Johannesburg)
    How do you even begin to measure it?Amity
    Historical and contemporary exemplification from those who express it, in speech, writing or/and in their creative works and positive actions. This also includes those who express hope despite having gone through terrible trauma. Folks like Doddie Weir, who just died of motor neuron disease, demonstrated nothing but hope towards the defeat of that horrible disease in the future. As do those in the public eye who will continue that hope in his name. A hope filled legacy. There are so many such legacies which should give us all hope for the future. The legacy of Deborah James, the bowel cancer babe is another example.
    How do you demonstrate it?Amity
    In a myriad of ways, like those exemplars I just mentioned above. But such examples can also include, authoring a thread about hope on a philosophy website.

    I wonder if love/desire ( or even hate) is necessary before any hope can take place.Amity

    I think it's hope that is fundamental. Why breathe or eat or drink, why not just stop and die? We hope that the next moment will be ok, that's why.

    Any addiction or release from it relies on support. I'm with you there in pragmatic hope :100:Amity
    :up:

    I don't know much about Sagan or the context in which he uses 'animated'.
    Does he say anything about 'hope'?
    Amity

    It's from his book, The demon haunted world. The word 'spirit' in Latin literally translates as 'to breathe,' this is demonstrated by an animated or moving human chest, up and down, which indicates life. Nothing supernatural was originally suggested by the word spirit or spiritual.

    Carl made many, many, many hope filled statements, such as:
    "We embarked on our journey to the stars with a question first framed in the childhood of our species and in each generation, asked anew, with undiminished wonder: What are the stars? Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars."

    "Better by far to embrace the hard truth, than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal."
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Words associated with the word Amity:
    amicableness, benevolence, comity, concord, cordiality, friendliness, goodwill, harmony, kindliness, neighborliness, togetherness, simpatico.

    I don't think it would be incorrect to include 'hope' or 'hopefulness,' in the above list of associated labels.
  • Amity
    4.6k
    That's a bit complex; here is not really the place to go into it, but very briefly, identification is making a connection of identity of any sort I am British, I am aphilosopher, I am going to win the lottery - the underlined are the identities, and the connection is an emotion pride or shame hope or fear.unenlightened

    Thanks. I know something already about identity and surrounding socio-psychological issues related to pride or shame. Class, gender, financial status etc.

    What I didn't understand was how it was unnecessary. Emotions are part of who we are.
    We are not necessarily 'attached' to hope or fear. Perhaps it is a fear or anxiety related to a potential consequence (success/failure) of entertaining hope that causes some to deny they have any.

    Both fear and hope, their contents, exist whether we like it or not. I don't view them as 'hollow'.
    What I would say is that they have to be attended to. Attention paid.
    Otherwise, it's avoidance. Your thoughts?

    Success is as dangerous as failure.
    Hope is as hollow as fear.
    — Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell

    These have always been two of my favorite lines from the Tao Te Ching. I've never had any trouble dispensing with hope and understanding why that is important. Fear has always been my problem. Hearing they are the same has always given me hope. Oops.
    T Clark

    What is it that you think 'hope' is that means you feel you have to stop doing or eliminate it?

    Of course there is a public aspect to identity, such that if the mods think I write nonsense all the time I get thrown off the site, but again, that is only a problem to me to the extent that I am emotionally invested in the identity of philosopher.unenlightened

    Yes. Also, if the mods think that someone is acting without a certain degree of control, almost like an addict. There can be a suspension until a balance might be reached. The mind takes possession; we need something badly and it takes over everyday activities. Kinda what's happening to me right now, even with my self-imposed time limit. I'm not emotionally invested in the identity of philosopher but I find myself becoming too involved and need to step back.

    Sometimes you don't even realise that you have hope until you experience disappointment.
    For example, the recent decision to cancel the December Short Story Competition.
    There was an expectation that it would happen. Stories might have been written with the hope to share and receive feedback. Yet, as far as I can tell, no author expressed any disappointment they felt.
    Why? No pushback. Is that because it was pointless, the decision having been taken?

    I felt disappointed and said so. But perhaps I was wrong. I was more invested than I thought.
    Unknown hopes dashed. Who knew?
  • universeness
    6.3k
    I felt disappointed and said so. But perhaps I was wrong.Amity

    Sometimes we can overanalyse ourselves and think we are becoming too irrational there or too addictive here. Employment of caution and self-analysis, is always wise, but so is allowing you to be you, without any compulsion to self-deprecate (which can also become addictive). Getting that balance perfect everytime is unattainable, so I continue to try not to destroy myself too much when I fail to live up to my own judgements.
  • Amity
    4.6k
    "Hope as a feeling?" Pacifer, or placebo, for fear180 Proof

    Hope as dummy-tit? To feel or seek/suck comfort to heal/overcome anxiety?
    Does that mean you create that feeling intentionally?
    When I try to think of any hopeful feelings I might have, then I'm already at a distance from basic hope.
    Instant hope; is it like instant coffee? Instant fear, a flight response. Hope kicking in too...to survive.

    Is that the same as the 'feeling'? A subjective pleasant perception with a positive motivation.
    That's not quite right. There's more.
    An uplifting of mood/spirit invoked by engagement with attuned others?
    Perhaps the feeling I had when I listened to the Italian Rainbow song? And other songs presented here.

    "Hope as an action?" Denying risk or improbability.180 Proof
    That seems a bit negative and wobbly. Can you explain further?
    For me, I guess the hope in question is that of pragmatism. Problem-solving - to bring about a positive
    change.

    "Hope as a philosophical concept?" The essential 'triumph of imagination over intelligence'.180 Proof

    Doesn't that quote refer to love or marriage?
    It seems not to give 'hope' its due as something of value.
    I've only recently paid close attention to it as an academic philosophical concept.
    I guess I've seen it more as a psychological motivating force in the context of being and doing.
    Also, related to anxiety, choosing ways of thinking to protect against negativity and low mood.

    Where have you expressed or found it?
    In a foxhole there is no "hope" – there's only courage or tears (or both).
    180 Proof

    That reminds me of this:
    https://philosophynow.org/issues/105/Atheist_In_A_Foxhole
    - how some religious people say no-one is an atheist in a foxhole.

    We can find ourselves in a mental hole of our own making with only ourselves to care/look out for.
    There can be all kinds of mixed emotions tied up with values/character.
    Real or imagined dangers/failures. Can we climb out on our own? Some hope so...
    Hope can co-exist with courage and tears. Are you denying the existence of hope?

    In a battlefield, the foxhole is apparently designed so that individuals look out for each other's back.
    In the hope they survive enemy fire. What if the enemy fire is your own? Bullets of despair.

    Did you find it 'hollow as fear'?
    More like, as futile as regret.
    180 Proof

    How is regret futile? OK, you can't undo what has happened. However, the hope is that you can learn from your mistakes. That's what hope does. We try to achieve goals, we might fail, we try again.
    On the other hand, sometimes Zarathustra is a little too much at any given time...
    Thanks for the quote, I'll might read it later.

    I really appreciate your attention to the OP :up:
  • Manuel
    3.9k


    It's hard to maintain a view of the world objectively and speak much about hope. It is a strategy to maintain some semblance of sanity. Otherwise, things are simply too bleak for us.

    I do want to add though, that being secular too, as I am, can be a profoundly mystical experience. I hesitate to talk about spirituality, given how loaded the word is.

    But depending on which traditions you follow and how you view the world from a more general perspective, can be a source of very profound experiences.

    In fact, you mentioned one: music. It is a privilege to be a being that is capable of appreciating such a thing, noise to other creatures, sublime to us.

    As with music, many other experiences too. Not sure if this connects with hope, but, worth pointing out.
  • Amity
    4.6k


    It is sometimes argued that hope is not the best approach to life. I had an art therapist tutor who seemed to regard it as a rather futile pursuit but the problem would be that without hope it may be like giving up. The existentialists, especially Camus, spoke of living with the absurd and despair. This may be valid to some extent but it depends how far it goes.Jack Cummins

    Yes. As per previous comments. I wonder what those most critical of hope would say about the opposite state. That of living a life of 'hopelessness'. It seems some see hope as a positive virtue, others not so much. As you say, 'it depends how far it goes'; the various aspects of my questions left any responses wide open. A matter of kind and degree. From the superficial (everyday) to the significant (crises).

    I agree that sometimes a leap of faith, not in the religious sense, is required when it comes to
    processing or progressing, from what one hopes for to action and any eventual outcome.
    Navigating inner and outer obstacles as you describe.

    Yes. Personal/social attitudes and values ( conscious or otherwise) play an important part.
    I was conscious when I included 'Love and Peace' in the title that some eyes might roll and was tempted to take them out. However, I agree with you as to the important relationship between the variables and so kept them in.

    Thank you too for your thoughts re secular humanists. I don't think that religion has the final say on morals or spirituality.

    What is it that we hope for? A political hope might concern environmental issues...
    How do we manage our expectations with regard to politics?
    How reasonable is it to hope and expect governments to prioritise the different goals within set structures and ideologies?
    Hoped and unhoped-for change can happen like chaos (sudden strike) - or at slo-snail pace or not at all.
  • Amity
    4.6k
    It's hard to maintain a view of the world objectively and speak much about hope. It is a strategy to maintain some semblance of sanity. Otherwise, things are simply too bleak for us.Manuel

    Yes. It seems that hope is more about a subjective feeling related to a mix of emotions. But we've also discussed it in terms of action and abstraction. As you say, it can be a strategic choice in coping with the realities or hallucinations of the world as we know/experience it.

    Different considerations and conclusions can be reached as to the meaning of hope.

    I do want to add though, that being secular too, as I am, can be a profoundly mystical experience. I hesitate to talk about spirituality, given how loaded the word is.Manuel

    The hesitancy to talk about 'spirituality' on a philosophy forum is quite natural. It does come loaded with all kinds of religious baggage. I think there should be concerted efforts to reclaim the word for a secular world. No shame attached.

    But depending on which traditions you follow and how you view the world from a more general perspective, can be a source of very profound experiences.Manuel

    Indeed. From Nina Simone's interpretation:
    Isn't it a pity
    You don't know what i'm talking about yet
    But i will tell you soon
    It's a pity
    Isn't it a pity
    Isn't it a shame
    Yes, how we break each other's hearts
    And cause each other pain
    [...]
    Some things take so long
    But how do i explain
    Why not too many people can see
    That we are all just the same

    We're all guilty
    Because of all the tears
    Our eyes just can't hope to see
    But i don't think it's applicable to me
    The beauty that surrounds them
    Child, isn't it a pity...

    In fact, you mentioned one: music. It is a privilege to be a being that is capable of appreciating such a thing, noise to other creatures, sublime to us.

    As with music, many other experiences too. Not sure if this connects with hope, but, worth pointing out.
    Manuel

    Did you listen to the Nina Simone video linked to by @180 Proof?
    It blew me away.
    And yes, it does connect to hope...in a big way...the hope that our eyes will see the beauty...even in the midst of life's woes. Through all the fears and tears we can find the rainbow:

    "The situation's really devastating, but I refuse to be sucked into negativity and pessimism," says Simona. I want to continue with my optimism because I can see a light at the end of this tunnel, just as I see a rainbow."BBC News - Coronavirus: Covid Nurses' song of hope from Italy

    That song of hope we can feel it, even in another language :cool:
    Gracias :up:
  • Amity
    4.6k


    Sorry, Jack, to hear of your ongoing housing problem but admire the way you are dealing with it:

    So, I try to think about the practical, personal and political aspects in the fullest possible scope. I am trying to cope with the dramas which I encounter practically and on an existential level.i can't speak to the official landlord because he has disappeared in Pakistan. I am trying to get legal advice and trying to find accommodation, which is not easy when so many are looking.

    You seem to be doing all you can do in a most frustrating and difficult situation.
    Stay strong in pragmatic hope and action :pray:
    Take care :sparkle:
  • Benj96
    2.2k
    As someone who lost religious faith some time ago, I wondered about any secular songs about 'hope' and if they could be seen as a kind of 'prayer'. How spiritual is the secular?
    The lyrics are about hope, love and peace:
    Amity

    For me, hope is what remains at the end, when all previous reason has lost its vigour, its value, its authority. A pure desire to find meanings once lost.

    As hope is reason enough in itself to continue. Hope for hopes sake, self perpetuating and self proving, self evident without any external requirements.

    Some might say having hope in a hopeless place is the greatest of all irrationalities, a pointless, fruitless effort, that one ought to give up hope, but if its all they have left what would they have after that? Nothing. Non existence. Submittal to death. Oblivion.

    Where better to re-examine and define "the rational, the multiplicity of reasons," then from outside its dominion, from that very place of pure belief, pure faith and optimism and determinism and imagination for the future - an innate power/instinct that only hope truly offers.

    Hope is the ultimate fuel of survival and endurance. It is the poetry that underpins existence in a society built on best guesses, half truths, conflicting opinions and invalidations, but also beauty, imagination, innovation and progress.

    The greatest truths are those that persist unperturbed - always exist through time. As they are the truest of true things. Constants. And hope I would imagine is a constant we ought not to undervalue, as losing it only brings forth utter despair.
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