• Tate
    1.4k
    If you search Google scholar for "primate dimorphism and monogamy" you'll find a plethora of articles confirming that Homo Sapiens wouldn't be expected to be monogamous because of marked sexual dimorphism (males are bigger). Generally, dimorphic species exhibit strong male-male competition and individual males usually mate with a lot of females. This pattern is common among primates with only a handful of exceptions.

    So how did monogamy become an ideal for our species? What does this imply about the human psyche in terms of our power to override biology?
  • Deleted User
    0
    This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
  • Moliere
    4k
    Is monogamy an ideal for our species?

    In the sense that people say they believe in it, of course, but the people who follow through on that belief are few enough that I'd say it doesn't really count as a species trait. And if we look at our closest cousins, the bonobos and chimpanzees, it's not a trait of theirs either.
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    Probably because males are not that much strong (nor different) from women compared to other apes.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    An interesting bit of trivia that may pave the way for deeper insight into the issue:

    Mrs. D, a 74-year-old married housewife, recently discharged from a local hospital after her first psychiatric admission, presented to our facility for a second opinion. At the time of her admission earlier in the year, she had received the diagnosis of atypical psychosis because of her belief that her husband had been replaced by another unrelated man. She refused to sleep with the impostor, locked her bedroom and door at night, asked her son for a gun, and finally fought with the police when attempts were made to hospitalise her. At times she believed her husband was her long deceased father. She easily recognised other family members and would misidentify her husband only. — Passer and Warnock (1991)

    Main page: Capgras Delusion
  • Tate
    1.4k
    In the sense that people say they believe in it, of course, but the people who follow through on that belief are few enough that I'd say it doesn't really count as a species trait.Moliere

    That may be. I suppose the question would then be: why did it ever come up at all? Biologically speaking, it probably shouldn't have. Does this imply that we're more than our biology?
  • Tate
    1.4k
    Probably because males are not that much strong (nor different) from women compared to other apes.I like sushi

    You're saying we lean toward monomorphism? If that's true, that would explain it. But we sure don't look monomorphic (except for the occasional androgynous individuals).
  • Moliere
    4k
    why did it ever come up at all? Biologically speaking, it probably shouldn't have. Does this imply that we're more than our biology?Tate

    I don't think so. We are able to posit ideals that we're unable to live up to. That's a large part of what makes people unhappy, in my estimation -- they want to be what they are not, and feel anxiety for not living up to their ideal. (hence why Christianity has a forgiveness-mechanism built in, to sustain the Christian identity in spite of not living up to the ideal)
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    Compared to most other apes this is pretty common knowledge. It is not just me saying it.

    Sapolsky refers to humans as ‘the confused ape’ because we are not one thing or another. We are ape-like in some ways but not in many others.
  • Tate
    1.4k
    I don't think so. We are able to posit ideals that we're unable to live up to.Moliere

    Whether we manifest the vision of monogamy or not, a fair chunk of western culture orbits the idea of monogamy, if only serial. My question is why?
  • Tate
    1.4k
    Compared to most other apes this is pretty common knowledge. It is not just me saying it.I like sushi

    Really? I don't think we're that out of proportion to the dimorphism of other primates. Are we?
  • Moliere
    4k
    Ahh, OK.

    For that I'd say the explanation is patriarchy. Men wanted ways to ensure that the children they were responsible for were actually their children, so monogamy was invented as an ideal. You can always tell who the mother is, but it's not so easy to tell who the father is. So, if my house is responsible to raise a child, I want to ensure that it is my child, and not someone elses child -- in effect, monogamy controls female bodies such that men know whose children is whose.
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    This is backwards. Women are the ones who select mates above men. Again, this is well known.
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    @Tate Not completely related but think you will enjoy. Sapolsky is a brilliant speaker (thanks for reminding me he exists):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vspqIbrzGXU
  • Moliere
    4k
    I'll voice disagreement, but -- it's irrelevant too because I'm describing an ideal and giving a material reason for said ideal. Since I don't think people follow the ideal it doesn't really counter the description and explanation to say that people don't follow the ideal.
  • I like sushi
    4.3k
    Deleted post (got confused between who posted what!)
  • T Clark
    13k
    I think the reasons are probably pretty prosaic. Human children require a lot of care and use up a lot of resources. Having more than one spouse would not be feasible except for the rich and powerful. Also, without monogamy there would not be enough women for all the men, which would lead to social disruption. I'm pretty sure women would not think it is a very good idea.

    As a married human male, I can't imagine having to deal with more than one wife. Just one is hard enough.
  • Tate
    1.4k
    Not completely related but think you will enjoy. Sapolsky is a brilliant speaker (thanks for reminding me he exists):I like sushi

    I'll check it out, Thanx!
  • Tate
    1.4k
    For that I'd say the explanation is patriarchy. Men wanted ways to ensure that the children they were responsible for were actually their children, so monogamy was invented as an ideal.Moliere

    Why not just have harems like gorillas? The whole point of our larger size is to run off other males, but instead we gang together in large groups.

    Maybe it's related to egalitarianism: if we all can't have harems, nobody gets one? That would be in line with:

    Having more than one spouse would not be feasible except for the rich and powerful. Also, without monogamy there would not be enough women for all the men, which would lead to social disruption. I'm pretty sure women would not think it is a very good idea.T Clark

    This all supposes power on the part of every male in society. Maybe as you say, for the sake of peace.

    Another possibility is that human females are smaller, but maybe their aggression makes up for that?
  • T Clark
    13k
    This all supposes power on the part of every male in society.Tate

    It only assumes that any society, human or otherwise, will only work if it can take care of it's children.

    China is having big social problems now because there are too many men and two few women because of the abandoned one-child policy. The wifeless men are not individually powerful, but as a group they can be disruptive.
  • Tate
    1.4k
    It only assumes that any society, human or otherwise, will only work if it can take care of it's children.T Clark

    Children of a harem system thrive. Why would monogamy allow us to care for children any better? What the non harem system allows is egalitarianism.

    The wifeless men are not individually powerful, but as a group they can be disruptiveT Clark

    What I explained earlier is that our biology should preclude large scale societies where male-male competition is seen as a threat. So you're suggesting that the answer is simply that: when we started creating large societies (maybe post agriculture?) we needed to squash social unrest, so monogamy appeared as one way to do that.
  • T Clark
    13k
    Children of a harem system thrive.Tate

    Do you know that's true? Anyway, only rich guys can have harems. In societies where multiple wives are allowed, most men have only one. Pew says that only 2% of marriages world-wide have more than one wife even though polygamy is legal in many Islamic countries.

    Hey, @Jamal. A source I found on the web says polygamy is legal in Russia. Is that true?
  • Jamal
    9.1k
    No, but those who practice it according to their traditions, while the partnerships are not legally recognised, are not committing a criminal offence. Muslims are 10% (maybe much more) of the population and some of them belong to cultures in which polygamy is customary. Some Caucasian (from the Caucasus) and Mongol peoples practice it, I believe.
  • Moliere
    4k
    Why not just have harems like gorillas?Tate

    In societies that don't have harems, at least (since some societies do have harems, hence the word harem) -- the women will have to agree to patriarchy as well as the men, but when you frame it like that it's a lot harder to catch on. So, monogamy.
  • BC
    13.1k
    Sapolsky refers to humans as ‘the confused ape’I like sushi

    Man, nailed that one!
  • 180 Proof
    14k
    So how did monogamy become an ideal for our species?Tate
    Acculturation: "monogamy" creates an artificial scarcity that, like prohibitions (i.e. social ideals/idols) of other consensual behaviors, monetizes sex aka "prostitution". :pray:

    What does this imply about the human psyche in terms of our power to override biology?
    Only that the neocortex "overrides" (i.e. exploits) the limbic system by commodifying human practices, bodies, offspring ...
  • Joshs
    5.2k
    Homo Sapiens wouldn't be expected to be monogamous because of marked sexual dimorphism (males are bigger). Generally, dimorphic species exhibit strong male-male competition and individual males usually mate with a lot of females. This pattern is common among primates with only a handful of exceptions.

    So how did monogamy become an ideal for our species? What does this imply about the human psyche in terms of our power to override biology?
    Tate

    I think the lesson here is to avoid drawing causal conclusions about human behavior from statistical analyses of animal behavior.
  • Tate
    1.4k
    Children of a harem system thrive.
    — Tate

    Do you know that's true?
    T Clark

    Well, gorillas seem to have survived pretty well using that reproductive system. They've been doing it for 7 million years, so I assume it has the potential to work.

    Why wouldn't work for humans? That was the question. I think your answer was that the needs of a larger society require squashing the harem system (assuming it ever existed among Homo Sapiens).
  • Tate
    1.4k
    the women will have to agree to patriarchy as well as the men, but when you frame it like that it's a lot harder to catch on. So, monogamy.Moliere

    I don't think patriarchy answers the question, though. Patriarchy doesn't entail monogamy. A harem allows a male to guarantee patrilineal descent.

    Again, I think the answer might have to do with the egalitarianism required by a larger society for the sake of social stability.
  • T Clark
    13k
    Well, gorillas seem to have survived pretty well using that reproductive system. They've been doing it for 7 million years, so I assume it has the potential to work.Tate

    That's a very weak response. A non sequitur. Human babies take much more care than gorillas. I think you have you're own preconceived notions and are not interested in examining them more thoroughly.
  • Tate
    1.4k
    I think the lesson here is to avoid drawing causal conclusions about human behavior from statistical analyses of animal behavior.Joshs

    It doesn't just come down to statistics. There's a theory for why monogamy and monomorphic sexes tend to appear together. The evidence is strong enough to warrant the question: what are Homo Sapiens doing working against biology?
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