Unpopular opinion: Nihilism still doesn't reflect reality. Philosophical pessimism is more honest.

niki wonoto

I used to be a nihilist (and even still somewhat do sometimes, when necessary or required to be). But as the time goes by, and I get much older now (I'm almost 40), and seeing the reality of our world, society, life, & existence, I've now turned into a pessimist (not just a simple pessimist, but more into philosophical pessimism, you can google & look it up if you want).

Nowadays lately, I've noticed that a lot of people mostly got into what's called an "Optimistic Nihilism". But I strongly disagree. And here is my main argument:

Unless if you're lucky or fortunate, a lot of people or even most of us here usually won't live a so-called perfect life (eg: successful, rich, wealthy, famous, popular, living the dreams, have lots of friends, healthy, or even just to be completely happy). A lot of people still have to toil away just to survive everyday. Many of us have to live with a lot of problems, and have to go through pain & sufferings almost everyday (I'm not living in the first world country, but I assume there are perhaps quite many people here who live quite a comfortable & even a privileged life there, so that's also counted as being lucky/fortunate).

I've tried to adhere & practice nihilism (& even that so-called optimistic nihilism). But in reality, it's not that easy & simple in practice. When your life is far from perfect, and even somewhat can be considered a failure, with a lot of problems after problems almost everyday/on a daily basis, and when things are stressful, & even depressing, to be honest, I just can't simply just 'nihilist away' all those harsh reality. No, again, life is not that easy, simple, nor optimistic, in reality (unless again if you're lucky or fortunate as I've explained above).

I mean, sure, I know and I understand, & even agree, that in the grand scheme of things, everything is meaningless, so it's like we're "free to do anything we want", right? No. In reality, we are *NOT* free to do what we want/like, or hope, dream, expect, etc etc etc. Real life / real world / reality is very limiting in what we can do (or be). Let me ask you for example: How many of you are trapped everyday in a job or work that you don't like? And that's just one main example. I still even haven't mentioned about if you have chronic pain/disease/illness for example, it will obviously become a lot/much worse.

I think people like me also have our own valid (& logical, rational) reasons to be a pessimist (or agreeing with philosophical pessimism), when looking at the world, life, (human's) society, existence, & basically the cold, harsh, cruel reality around us everyday (I still even haven't discussed about depressive realism, antinatalism, pro-mortalism, efilism, suicide, etc etc).

180 Proof

Defining your keys terms (a sentence or three will do) will make your OP clearer. Thanks.

Down The Rabbit Hole

↪niki wonoto

I think philosophical pessimism is a rational response to the horrors of reality.

Nihilism, the view that nothing matters, can't be correct if there are bad things (e.g. pain and suffering). Thus either nihilism is true, or philosophical pessimism, but not both.

schopenhauer1

↪niki wonoto

Excellent distinction between the two ideas which most people mix up. Good for you for embracing the often misrepresented idea of philosophical pessimism. I too am a philosophical pessimist (see my profile). I am also an antinatalist and have several threads on the topic going on now if you would care to contribute. Suffering and dealing with are main parts of what happens when being born. Life is not a utopia, yet we are brought into it.. I have a thread about the "most people" defense. "Most people' people say, would have wanted to be born.. But can people misjudge life's negatives? Can they misjudge their own experiences? Can something be wrong and people not know it? That is being discussed in this thread: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11469/the-most-people-defense/p1

Also there's this thread about never having the option for no option: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11540/is-never-having-the-option-for-no-option-just-what-are-the-implications

To add to the misery of the world, don't forget the ire misery of the miserable people you often find in philosophy forums! Get ready for that if you write too much philosophical pessimism on here for sure!

You may also find my thread on why it is that humans suffer more than other animals interesting too
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11441/why-humans-and-possibly-higher-cognition-animals-have-it-especially-bad

And this one about why it's bad to make someone have to work to survive in the first place (by procreating them):
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11387/making-someone-work-or-feel-stress-unnecessarily-is-wrong

If you read through my threads, most of the themes are philosophical pessimism and antinatalism.

javi2541997

↪niki wonoto

I remember debating nihilism inside this forum some months ago. I still defending the same which is so similar to you: Nihilism is a period of life. When you are having a bad moment with depression or sadness you tend to feel nihilistic and not believe in what the future holds. Tobe honest is a very negative period of time because when we are living it we do not have the motivation to do something and it is horrible.
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Then here we have the important issue: pessimism or at least understand life is very difficult and painful. Kierkegaard helped me out a lot in this context. I recommend to you his book the concept of anxiety" is very helpful to clarify the ideas.
In this point, yes, I am agree with you, pessimism and pessimistic thoughts are completely valid and logic

T Clark

I think people like me also have our own valid (& logical, rational) reasons to be a pessimist (or agreeing with philosophical pessimism), when looking at the world, life, (human's) society, existence, & basically the cold, harsh, cruel reality around us everyday (I still even haven't discussed about depressive realism, antinatalism, pro-mortalism, efilism, suicide, etc etc). — niki wonoto

Please don't take this as criticism. I think that the underlying basis of our philosophies reflect our temperament as much as our intellect or circumstances. I am often the Pollyanna in these discussions. I think the world is a wonderful place and I feel like I belong here. The world and I, all of us, were made for each other. Oddly, this does not make me a particularly happy person in general. I recognize my responsibility for my reaction to the world.

I do live a privileged life and I have no reason to complain about what I have been given. I'm not sure how many happy privileged people there are, but freedom from fear is a good thing.

T Clark

↪niki wonoto

Forgot to say - A well-written and clear post with good ideas. With which I don't agree.

thewonder

↪niki wonoto

↪schopenhauer1

I'm not quite so sure that I see a clear distinction. Nihilism and philosophical pessimism both posit that the human experience, for the most part, is ultimately negative. Perhaps I'm confusing what people call philosophical pessimism with what they do "nihilism" however?

schopenhauer1

I'm not quite so sure that I see a clear distinction. Nihilism and philosophical pessimism both posit that the human experience, for the most part, is ultimately negative. Perhaps I'm confusing what people call philosophical pessimism with what they do "nihilism" however? — thewonder

Possibly? Nihilism means one has no values. Nothing is right, nothing is wrong except perhaps one's own interests and will to power. I think of The Big Lebowski's depiction, though that's obviously a caricature.

Philosophical pessimists are very rooted in traditional value systems. Existence itself is seen as having a generally negative quality. Suffering is inherent in being human, or being born, or perhaps existence itself (pace Schopenhauer's Will). Thus, the elimination of suffering would be akin to never being born or some type of ascetic practice or de-individuation where one can extirpate the suffering to some extent (pace Buddhism).

javi2541997

Philosophical pessimists are very rooted in traditional value systems. Existence itself is seen as having a generally negative quality. Suffering is inherent in being human, or being born, or perhaps existence itself (pace Schopenhauer's Will). Thus, the elimination of suffering would be akin to never being born or some type of ascetic practice or de-individuation where one can extirpate the suffering to some extent (pace Buddhism). — schopenhauer1

Excellent. Hats off to this good argument :100:

I feel so related to this. Not only with the fact of not being born I secure not suffer at all but not hurting others. If I never were born, then I would not be able to hurt, punch, rape, steal, disappoint, kill or betray you.
Not existing can produce benefits for both parts: the "persons" who never been born and all the people he never will met.

Corvus

↪niki wonoto

It seems the source of nihilism is the end of life, which is inevitable death, rather than life now, which is suffering and not being perfect.

Because even if it is hard now, people can try to make it better for the future. That is hope and potential to be good and meaningful.

But no matter how successful one is, having a fantastic perfect life right now, it will not be forever. It will not last. He / she is getting older every day, heading towards old age and inevitable death. All the billionaires will leave the billions behind, all the powerful figures in politics and nations will have to come down from the throne, all the celebrities with fame, beauty and mega money will fade into old age, and all have to die one day. That is why life is viewed as tragic, therefore nihilism is realism.

thewonder

↪schopenhauer1

I guess there seems to be a difference between what nihilists say that nihilism is and what it more often than not turns out to be. It usually turns out to be a philosophy of despair and somehow ultimate within philosophical pessimism, generally connoting something like that existence is suffering. Perhaps, it's just because of that so many philosophical pessimists also happen to be existential nihilists that I feel confused.

Joshs

↪niki wonoto

You mentioned illness, being stuck in a miserable job, and lack of friends as reasons to be pessimistic. In you own life , what are the things that make you most unhappy? For most people , it’s their relationship with others and their inability to avoid loneliness and find contentment when they are alone. If you were by yourself for a week , say, in a cabin in the woods, would you be able to find contentment?

Joshs

↪Corvus

all have to die one day. That is why life is viewed as tragic, therefore nihilism is realism. — Corvus

I think the tragedy of death is great fodder for mental
masturbarion, but fear of kicking the bucket isn’t what makes people into miserable nihilists or pessimists. It’s their failed relationships with others and their inability to be comfortable with themselves. I guarantee you that a person who does not see the world as an ugly place, who empathizes with others , even those who we are told to despise, who delights in their friendships and in their solitary enjoyments , such a person will have no use for nihilism.

180 Proof

Nothing matters, including 'nothing matters'. (nihilism)

Nothing, especially if it matters, is safe or will ever get better or will not make you suffer. (pessimism)

javi2541997

Nothing, especially if it matters, is safe or will ever get better or will not make you suffer. (pessimism) — 180 Proof

:100: :up:

Corvus

guarantee you that a person who does not see the world as an ugly place, who empathizes with others , even those who we are told to despise, who delights in their friendships and in their solitary enjoyments , such a person will have no use for nihilism. — Joshs

Most famous philosophers in history enjoyed solitary living for their thinking and writing. Human relations come and go, and it is something of a contingent affair for most grownups.
I still think nihilism is based on the nature of life, that it has a short finite time, hence no matter how successful or happy one has been, it will not last. The end is coming very soon, and after the end, nothingness will last for good. So, there is no meaning in trying to achieve anything. No meaning to worry or feel pain. They are all meaningless.

I think (I don't care what the bloody Wiki says), nihilism is about the death and post death, which is eternal nothingness therefore it even affects life at present into something meaningless.

Pessimism is about looking at not just life and death, but even birth as a tragic event, because when one is born, one has to go through suffering, get old, and then must face death.
Pessimists such as Schopenhauer would say, the best thing in life is not to be born. Once born, the next best thing is to die as soon as possible. The irony is that he didn't die soon. He tried to live as long as possible.

Tom Storm

Unless if you're lucky or fortunate, a lot of people or even most of us here usually won't live a so-called perfect life (eg: successful, rich, wealthy, famous, popular, living the dreams, have lots of friends, healthy, or even just to be completely happy). A lot of people still have to toil away just to survive everyday. — niki wonoto

I don't know why anyone would think wealth and fame make us happy, given the history of fame in the 20th and 21st century. That's a very teenage, mainstream media view of success. I think a simple life with a little toil and suffering is a better path to comparative happiness.

I think (I don't care what the bloody Wiki says), nihilism is about the death and post death, which is eternal nothingness therefore it even affects life at present into something meaningless. — Corvus

I can't see how 'eternal nothingness' (such a deliberately dramatic term) matters two fucks. We are all familiar with nothingness - it is quite beautiful in its way. Just think back across the billions of years before you were born. Death's just like that.

So, there is no meaning in trying to achieve anything. No meaning to worry or feel pain. They are all meaningless. — Corvus

That's an amusing outlook and seems such a cultivated position. The opposite also holds. Life is long and full of adventure and what matters is the moment and the sparks of light and adventure along the way. A party doesn't have to last for eternity to be a good party. God forbid. If a person truly can't find joy then perhaps they are clinically depressed; or maybe are that very common phenomenon, a morose teenager.

Corvus

I can't see how 'eternal nothingness' (such a deliberately dramatic term) matters two fucks. We are all familiar with nothingness - it is quite beautiful in its way. Just think back across the billions of years before you were born. Death's just like that. — Tom Storm

Nihilism is not all that miserable and horrible position for one to be in, as some tries or seems making out. Many are actually quite content and happy being nihilist.

Outlander

everything is meaningless — niki wonoto

What if your "knowledge" or ingrained belief is meaningless? Oh wait, apparently it isn't. Logic fail. So, why not build on your own knowledge if it's so intrinsically excluded from "everything". Not ego, but knowledge. This is confused many a time.

I think people like me also have our own valid (& logical, rational) reasons to be a pessimist (or agreeing with philosophical pessimism), when looking at the world, life, (human's) society, existence, & basically the cold, harsh, cruel reality around us everyday (I still even haven't discussed about depressive realism, antinatalism, pro-mortalism, efilism, suicide, etc etc). — niki wonoto

Yeah things can be pretty sh*tty. You should think of life as a sandbox. You can build a castle or you can piss in it. Naturally, you being one person can't change the choices of others.. as an individual. But. You can shape a better tomorrow if you so chose to, at least you could try. Yet you don't. Understandably because this is unrealistic. You could shout good tidings from the rooftops and depending on the crowd may even be shot at. This is discouraging. But there are other ways.

What joy is there to succumb to negativity and be at peace with it compared to resisting it, even in your own way, and succeeding to bring joy to others thus bringing meaning to your own? These are the questions only you can answer. And I hope you do.

180 Proof

↪Tom Storm

:fire:

Nothing matters, including 'nothing matters'. (nihilism)

Nothing, especially if it matters, is safe or will ever get better or will not make you suffer. (pessimism) — 180 Proof

addenda:

Whether one lives or dies does not matter. (nihilism)

Only death matters; that the living necessarily feed on the dead and will in turn be fed upon as we decay and then die; that existence is a cycling, insatiable, cosmic and terrestrial abattoir. Life is just food playing with its food. If life can have a goal it is to die soon and quickly, but most sentients learn to cling to their suffering and thereby fail even to reach this readily available life goal. (pessimism)

I, myself, prefer the absurd.

Where I am, I don’t know, I’ll never know, in the silence you don’t know, you must go on, I can’t go on, I’ll go on. You’re on earth. There’s no cure for that. — The Unnameable

:death::flower:

Corvus

That's an amusing outlook and seems such a cultivated position. The opposite also holds. Life is long and full of adventure and what matters is the moment and the sparks of light and adventure along the way. A party doesn't have to last for eternity to be a good party. God forbid. If a person truly can't find joy then perhaps they are clinically depressed; or maybe are that very common phenomenon, a morose teenager. — Tom Storm

Nihilism, for me, is just knowledge and mental attitude about life, with the prospect of all life of human being being finite and limited, therefore nothing is really meaningful to feel distressed or desirable, so take it easy, calm and cool. That's all. Nothing more or less.

Joshs

↪Corvus

Most famous philosophers in history enjoyed solitary living for their thinking and writing. Human relations come and go, and it is something of a contingent affair for most grownups. — Corvus

Human relations are the background condition for everything we do, whether alone or with others. It may be true that philosophers spend much time physically alone, as do novelists ( there’s a happy bunch) , but whether they do so happily or not is a function of how they perceive their status with respect to others in their lives. If you haven’t found a way to feel a sense of belonging, mutual understanding and connection with others, then this failure will define the quality of your solitary experience as well.

If you have managed to find rewarding meaning in your relationships, such value doesn’t vanish simply because of death. This wasnt Schopenhauer’s argument, it was that the course of life itself, within itself was arbitrary and thus without value.

Nietzsche turned this thinking on it’s head. He argues that pessimists were still mourning the loss of the grand old metaphysical absolutes (God,Truth, Goodness) and hadn't figured out a way to replace them with existential values of change and becoming. So they concocted a solution (death and nothingness) which was itself a metaphysical notion. But pure nothingness is no more coherent than absolute truth or an eternal God. Nietzsche recognized that the fundamental basis of life was Will to value. We are always in a state of desire, and even the desire for nothingness is still a valuing and willing. That’s why psychologists say that suicide is a life affirming act.

180 Proof

Human relations are the background condition for everything we do, whether alone or with others. — Joshs

:up:

Corvus

If you haven’t found a way to feel a sense of belonging, mutual understanding and connection with others, then this failure will define the quality of your solitary experience as well. — Joshs

I think it boils down to one's view on life. It then becomes personal value. It is not a matter of truth or falsity. You value human relations and belonging in the group you care for as the utmost criteria for your meaning of life. No one can argue with that, or deny it.

Me? I have an infinite size of universe in my mind that I am happy with, to ponder about anytime I would like. I am also too busy with various hobbies that I enjoy, and it makes life interesting. Friends come and go, and I don't lose sleep over relationship fallouts. Nihilism is still a useful view of life from time to time to get into, because it tells what the world is facing, and where all the people including me are heading to. Nihilism is realism.

Joshs

↪Corvus

Nihilism is realism. — Corvus

I’ve never been much of a realist. Too conforming . I’m more of a constructivist. If you dont like your reality, construct a new one. And keep in mind , it is likely that medical science will eventually figure out how to outfox death (As you know , there are plenty of living things that don’t age).

Tom Storm

Many are actually quite content and happy being nihilist. — Corvus

I know I was nihilist for many years and I always found it absurdly life affirming.

Corvus

I’ve never been much of a realist. Too conforming . I’m more of a constructivist. If you dont like your reality, construct a new one. And keep in mind , it is likely that medical science will eventually figure out how to outfox death (As you know , there are plenty of living things that don’t age). — Joshs

I accept the reality as it is. Sure, where I can reconstruct, if it looks reasonable and possible without my loss and looks like it will make it better than the status quo, then I would reconstruct it. (not Derridian reconstruction)

Eternal life without death will bring all sorts of problems. What would be the point if medical science succeeded in making people live forever without death, but millions are killing themselves out of boredom, because they are keep living forever and ever? Don't get excited. It wouldn't happen in our lifetime anyway. I will stick to realism for the time being.

Corvus

I know I was nihilist for many years and I always found it absurdly life affirming. — Tom Storm

I am a part time nihilist myself.

Tom Storm

I am a part time nihilist myself. — Corvus

That's the way. I recommend life affirming Zoroastrianism on weekends.

Tom Storm

Nietzsche turned this thinking on it’s head. He argues that pessimists were still mourning the loss of the grand old metaphysical absolutes (God,Truth, Goodness) and hadn't figured out a way to replace them with existential values of change and becoming. — Joshs

That rings true. Must be wrong. :joke:

Unpopular opinion: Nihilism still doesn't reflect reality. Philosophical pessimism is more honest.

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