You condone Hamas' terror attacks, you don't get to tell me about moral integrity. — BitconnectCarlos

"Condone" disingenuously exaggerates my position; unlike your position stating you condone the terrorist state of Israel, and therefore haven't any moral integrity whatsoever.

( :fire: Hamas =/= US-backed IDF + Mossad :death: )

More proof: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-aparthei

"Condone" disingenuously exaggerates my position — 180 Proof

Then please clarify.

To be anti-zionist is to support the disappearance/vanishment of Israel which sounds like murder to most ears. Israel is already here; you can't question the existence or demand the non-existence of something that's already here.

Link "Condone" in previous post.

I have no idea what you're talking about. What is your attitude towards intentional violence towards Israeli civilians? Do you condemn it? Yes or no.

This is all I need to hear. You're either on the side of humanity or you are on the side of evil.

Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were not "wiped off the map", the existence of those nations were never in question only their murderous, aggressive, expansionist, fascist regimes. Bibi lost the premiership today (for how long remains to be seen), a baby step back from more "wag-the-dog" atrocities. Antizionism is antifascism with respect to the current apartheid, ethnic cleasing regime in Tel Aviv, which only sounds like "murder" to state-sanctioned murderers and their apologists like you, BC.

I condemn Zionist violence, Islamist violence or any other expansionist nationalist violence. Violence of the oppressed ("David" ~ Gaza, WB) against the violent oppressor ("Goliath" ~ Israel), however, I support. :fire:

Very suave of you to avoid my last question.

Violence of the oppressed ("David" ~ Gaza, WB) against the violent oppressor ("Goliath" ~ Israel) I support. :fire: — 180 Proof

Do Israeli teenagers out on a Saturday night count as "Israel" or "Goliath?" How about random Israelis in coffee shops?

Take a good long look at Gaza City and answer your own damn question. :point:

"עַיִן בְּעַיִן שֵׁן בְּשֵׁן"

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-aparthei

Please stay on topic. We're talking about the murder of Israeli citizens. The fact that you're not giving me a straight answer speaks for itself.

I also don't read hebrew.

Israel is already here; you can't question the existence or demand the non-existence of something that's already here. — BitconnectCarlos

It does seem reasonable to question the rationality of a long oppressed people seeking a safe home in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods on Earth. This seems equivalent to me, a relatively well off old white man, choosing to move to a ghetto on the south side of Chicago because my ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

During one of the previous shootouts with Hamas I spent about a month in the comment section of the Jerusalem post, where I claimed that Israelis were choosing a particular piece of land over the safety of their children. That's the reality I see.

When I become President of the United States I will extend US citizenship to every Israeli and invite them to come live with us, where nobody is firing rockets at Jews. They would be such a great asset to the United States. This won't work of course, but the invitation should be made anyway.

It does seem reasonable to question the rationality of a long oppressed people seeking a safe home in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods on Earth. This seems equivalent to me, a relatively well off old white man, choosing to move to a ghetto on the south side of Chicago because my ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. — Foghorn

Sure, we can question it in hindsight. We're in a pretty big mess in the Middle East, but Israel was created in 1948 and it's 2021. We can entertain theoretical discussions about whether Israel should have been created in the first place, but it's now a country of 9 million and there is no possibility of Israel just packing up and leaving. We need to ask ourselves how we best move forward from here in a way that's acceptable and fair to both sides.

During one of the previous shootouts with Hamas I spent about a month in the comment section of the Jerusalem post, where I claimed that Israelis were choosing a particular piece of land over the safety of their children. That's the reality I see. — Foghorn

I would need to hear that reasoning flushed out a bit more to comment on it.

When I become President of the United States I will extend US citizenship to every Israeli and invite them to come live with us, where nobody is firing rockets at Jews. They would be such a great asset to the United States. This won't work of course, but the invitation should be made anyway. — Foghorn

I have no problem with this. I'm well aware that there's risk in Israel and rockets do hit places, but again neither side is going anywhere.

We can entertain theoretical discussions about whether Israel should have been created in the first place, but it's now a country of 9 million and there is no possibility of Israel just packing up and leaving. — BitconnectCarlos

Ok, fair enough, not really arguing with that. But technically at least, I'm unaware of any substantial reasons why Israelis couldn't pack up and leave if they chose to do so. You're right, that won't happen, but the price tag for that choice could turn out to be high.

I get that Israelis want to have their own country, that's very understandable, especially given the history. The problem is, it's a very small country. A very smart country, but still very small, and surrounded by enemies. Israel has to win every single day. Israeli's enemies only need to win once.

I'm not making any moral case here. I'm just trying to do the survival math in a hopefully objective manner.

And, it doesn't really make sense that the Palestinians want their own country either, as it would most likely become just another corrupt Arab dictatorship.

You don't seem to read English either.

I'm not engaging with you until I hear whether Israeli teenagers out on a Saturday night or random people in a coffee shop qualify as "Goliath" or "Israel" and are therefore valid targets.

Asked and answered.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/549969

Take a good long look at Gaza City and answer your own damn question. :point:

"עַיִן בְּעַיִן שֵׁן בְּשֵׁן"

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-aparthei — 180 Proof

I have no idea what "take a good long look at Gaza city means." Gaza city doesn't matter. I am asking you about murdering israelis. stay on topic.

I didn't bother to translate the second line because I don't speak hebrew and I don't see the need to introduce it unless you're just trying to sound fancy. if you want to translate it for me because it answers me question then go ahead.

Gaza city doesn't matter. — BitconnectCarlos

Proves my / our point again. STFU & GFY.

Gaza city doesn't matter because I'm asking you about murdered Jews.

Just own up that you don't care about murdered Jews as long as they're Israeli/Zionist.

My own attitudes towards Gaza city matter zero. this isn't about me.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57464794

The new inheritor of the Israeli state apartheid apparatus takes his seat.

The BBC article is kind of amazing. It barely touches on Bennett's attitudes or policies toward Palestine despite it being the most obviously relevant world issue. Policies including straight up annexing most of the West Bank, and attitudes including pride at having killed 'lots of Arabs'. It does take pains to point out issues of gay rights and just how many women he has in parliament though! All while discussing the PM of an apartheid state. This is wokeness weaponized.

He's even further to the right than Netanyahu! He's nuts. Israel doesn't even really have a center anymore. I don't know how it can come back.

Pressure from the US could help somewhat, but this guys just barbaric.

You're right that endogenous change won't happen. Change will have to come from the outside. Israel needs to be treated exactly like South Africa was. Or like North Korea is. Pariah states. The association Israel = apartheid state needs to be an association no less closely connected than water to fish. The shamefulness of Israel needs to be normalized.

It's on the path of being unanimously recognized as shameful. One important factor that may impede the situation is that Israel sells a bunch of technology to other countries, so a lot of money is involved. If that weren't the case, I think other countries could be more forceful, like China maybe or Russia.

But yes, change has to be brought to bear externally.

A case of capitalism making everything worse as usual.

I get that Israelis want to have their own country, that's very understandable, especially given the history. The problem is, it's a very small country. A very smart country, but still very small, and surrounded by enemies. Israel has to win every single day. Israeli's enemies only need to win once. — Foghorn

Your genuine concern here is a breath of fresh air in this thread. Thanks for the input.

Your genuine concern here is a breath of fresh air in this thread — BitconnectCarlos

Well, you know how it is, here, there, everywhere. Everyone wants to play the blame and shame game, and few are really that interested in the actual subject, whatever it might be.

I played the blame and shame game myself when I told readers of the Jerusalem Post that they were valuing land over their children. I still think that's true, but these days I'm less inclined to yell that which will accomplish nothing.

As you likely know, philosophy forums are primarily about male ego enhancement.

Hey 180, you're a man, right? What if an abused woman assaulted you because you reminded her of someone? I guess we just refuse to condemn her; how could anyone ever criticize such a victim? She's certainly faced oppression (if not genocide!) by men. Guess you're SOL here.

If only you could manage just 1% of that for Palestinians, instead we get idiotic analogies about abused women.

I wasn't even talking to you, Benkei, but in any case it's the same thing with you - the refusal to condemn the "victim."

This isn't about me at all by the way. I don't care if you think I'm a literal Nazi when this entire time all I've been trying to do (unsuccessfully) is to get 180 to condemn the intentional murder of Israeli civilians by Hamas & other groups.

At this point I've given up and approached it from a different angle.

Benkei, but in any case it's the same thing with you - the refusal to condemn the "victim." — BitconnectCarlos

Then you've quite clearly not paid attention.

Read it, if you ain't a coward:
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-aparthei

I have no idea what "take a good long look at Gaza city means." Gaza city doesn't matter. I am asking you about murdering israelis. — BitconnectCarlos

And I've answered already; but now this: the new regime in Tel Aviv will get more Israelis murdered if / when a standing "shoot to kill" order is implemented as promised...

Times of Israel:

Asked if he would also instruct the army to shoot and kill Palestinian children who breach the border fence, Bennett said, “They are not children — they are terrorists. We are fooling ourselves. I see the photos.” — Naftali Bennett, 2018 interview

עַיִן בְּעַיִן שֵׁן בְּשֵׁן* (Lev. 24:20, Ex. 21:23-5 & Deut. 19:21) Logic of the situation – If Palestinian children (of "David") are valid targets, then Israeli children (of "Goliath") also must be valid targets. :fire:

lex talionis*