• Manuel
    983
    I'll hear about criticism or prejudice towards Muslims, but I was asking about Arabs earlier. The difference is that Arab is an ethnicity and there are Arabs of all religious backgrounds who live all around the world.

    Islam is open to legitimate criticism. Being an Arab is not.
    BitconnectCarlos

    The reason for mixing them up is the same reason why Israel is often mixed up with being Jewish, it's a way to criticize Arabs or Jews, without naming them directly, leading to plausible deniability. Needless to say not all Arabs are Muslim nor all Israeli Jews.

    Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic organization but the people who primarily suffer due to that are the Palestinians living under them. Sure the Israelis face bombs and threats, but I'd much rather be fighting that than living under it.BitconnectCarlos

    Yes. But the people living under Hamas don't have much of an option, in that other representatives in Gaza, whatever remains, can't even fight back. Yes Hamas is ugly, but they fight back and that counts for something, whatever else may be said about them aside.

    Anti-semitism in the Arab world did not only begin existing in 1948, there's a very long history there. Israel currently is also at peace with a number of its Arab neighbors including Egypt whom it gave back Sinai to in... 1988? It's been some time since these countries were actually at war.

    There are Gallup polls that measure this type of thing that I'd be happy to show you if we wanted to pursue this further. These polls reflect deep-seated attitudes that extend far beyond Israel.
    BitconnectCarlos

    And the peace brokered by Egypt and Jordan were done with the leaders of the country, often at odds with what the population wants. It's not that I don't think Israel shouldn't have peace, it's that it should be done representing in a democratic matter, not by leaders who don't represent the will of the people.

    You're argument may have had much more force back in the 50's and 60's. Putting aside wishful thinking by some of Israel's victims, they know that Israel is here to stay. They would probably be much less hostile if Israel gave back the occupied territories and give Palestinians total autonomy within these areas.

    That would lead to a much better view of Israel, no doubt about it.

    Vilified by who? The Arabs? The western world? I don't deny that settlers in the WB can be provocative, but I don't see them as being the main reason that Israel is vilified. You also have to remember that there has been Jewish communities in the WB going back thousands of years.BitconnectCarlos

    I had in mind many countries in the world, not so much the Arab population. Statistics that go back thousands of years aren't worth much.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k
    It's not that I don't think Israel shouldn't have peace, it's that it should be done representing in a democratic matter, not by leaders who don't represent the will of the people.Manuel


    If this were an option it would be great, but states always need to deal with the leaders of other states whether they're authoritarian or democratic.

    They would probably be much less hostile if Israel gave back the occupied territories and give Palestinians total autonomy within these areas.Manuel

    The Palestinians already have total autonomy within Gaza. It's to the point where Hamas can hunt down gay people and those seeking peace with Israel and either arrest or execute them and Israel won't do anything. Hamas controls day to day life there, Israel just controls the borders. In the WB too it's autonomous rule in the Palestinian part of the region & even in the Israeli part Palestinians are governed by the PNA. There's more Israelis than Palestinians in some parts of the WB so I have no idea why that all needs to be ceded to the Palestinians. Before Israel took the area it belonged to Jordan.

    Nonetheless, I'd still be down to ceding control of Gaza and the WB if it meant peace. But this just isn't the final aim of the Palestinians and to think it is portrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the conflict.
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    The Palestinians already have total autonomy within Gaza.BitconnectCarlos

    :rofl:
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k


    Oh sorry, is Israel committing genocide towards its LGBTQ population?

    But by all means none of this matters.
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    I guess in your view of the world, prisoners have total autonomy within a prison yard.
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    And let's not forget that when they exercised "autonomy" and elected Hamas, they were punished for having the audacity of voting against Israeli interests. But yeah, total autonomy. What a joke.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k
    and elected Hamas, they were punished for having the audacity of voting against Israeli interests.Benkei


    Israel withdrew from Gaza in '05 and they elected Hamas in '06.

    But yes, if you elect a government bent on the genocide of Jews within Israel then you're going to get a response and it's not going to be a positive one.

    I guess in your view of the world, prisoners have total autonomy within a prison yard.Benkei

    It is a problem of their own doing based on their governing body's inability to accept the existence of Israel.
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    Ah. Victim blaming. Nice. Gaza isn't "within Israel" but nice slip of the tongue. Not that we weren't aware of your uncritical support of Israel.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k


    This whole "victim blaming" charge when it comes to international affairs just doesn't mean anything to me. Aggressive, ruthless powers virtually always portray themselves as victims and this extends far outside the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Hutus slaughtered Tutsis by the hundreds of thousands with machetes because they had been victimized by the Tutsis previously... so I guess blaming the Hutus here is also victim blaming? Who are we to condemn the victim? The Tutsi perpetrators were just getting their comeuppance, right?
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    Another tu quoque from the ethically impaired I see. Open a thread on Tutsis and Hutus if you like. We're talking about Gaza right now. Gaza is basically an open air prison. So don't talk about "total autonomy" as if you have any remote understanding of what those words mean.
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    By the way, I'm not making this shit up, unlike your suggestion Palestinians living Gaza have autonomy. Maybe you should sign this: https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/take-action/lift-the-blockade-on-gaza/

    And then continue to read the well-documented reports from B'Tselem, Amnesty and HRW.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k


    Sure, I'll sign the petition so that weapons can be imported into Gaza which can then be used against Israeli citizens. /s

    And this is the part where you say "not my problem."
  • Manuel
    983


    What's the meaning of autonomy if they don't have running water, they have restrictions on caloric intake, they can't fish as they wish on there shore, etc? That's not "autonomy" in any sense of the word.

    I think that if you have back WB and Gaza, things would get much better. I frankly don't understand what Palestinians would do to Israel without facing massive and severe repercussions. The Palestinians aren't getting an army so I don't think there is too much to worry about. But there will continue to be much to worry about if the occupation continues.
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    Yeah, I get it. You'll cry "existential threat!" when someone picks up a rock.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k


    I'm sure if people were throwing rocks at your family you'd laugh it off too. Rocks can't hurt people lol.

    The reason its only rocks is because of the blockade.
  • Kenosha Kid
    2.4k
    And Trump should be commended for saying that, because it's true. There's blood on every states hands. It's just that the bigger the state (generally) the more blood they spill...Manuel

    Small hands though.
  • Kenosha Kid
    2.4k
    Anti-semitism in the Arab world did not only begin existing in 1948, there's a very long history there.BitconnectCarlos

    :up: Starting with Muhammad. (EDIT: Well, at least since Muhammad, and probably before.)
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k
    What's the meaning of autonomy if they don't have running water, they have restrictions on caloric intake, they can't fish as they wish on there shore, etc? That's not "autonomy" in any sense of the word.Manuel


    They do have running water. There's a ton of misinformation out there. They're free to build their own facilities but the money gets mismanaged by the governing authorities. Gazans are free to go fishing but I don't know every fishing regulation there is.

    I think that if you have back WB and Gaza, things would get much better. I frankly don't understand what Palestinians would do to Israel without facing massive and severe repercussions. The Palestinians aren't getting an army so I don't think there is too much to worry about. But there will continue to be much to worry about if the occupation continues.Manuel

    Yes, I'm sure the Palestinians would be happy if Israel gave them all of the WB. But why would Israel do that without a concrete guarantee that the Palestinians have given up further territorial claims? Also it would mean kicking thousands of Jews off of land that they've lived in for hundreds if not thousands of years.

    I get it, you want to believe that all the Palestinians want is a state of their own. That's a normal, healthy assumption that many outsiders to the conflict would make. Unfortunately it's just not true - it's not reflected in politics and it's not reflected in polls either. It's a nice belief and I wish it were true. In reality, there is a strong desire to see Israel gone. Vanquished.

    "Few still support a two-state solution. Ironically, while some attribute Palestinian rejection of Trump’s plan to its new limits on the traditional two-state paradigm, most Palestinian respondents now reject that model as well. Asked to choose “the top Palestinian national priority during the coming five years,” two-thirds (66%) of West Bankers in this poll pick “regaining all of historical Palestine for the Palestinians”; a mere 14% choose “ending the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, to achieve a two-state solution.” Gazan respondents, surprisingly, are a bit more moderate: 56% want all of Palestine, while 31% opt for the two-state solution."

    https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/palestinian-majority-rejects-two-state-solution-backs-tactical-compromises

    You know what - maybe this would change if Israel just withdrew from the WB. I doubt it. But it's unfair to ask Israel to make that such great concessions without a guarantee of peace. Palestinians gaining control of all of the WB just places more Israeli cities in range for Palestinian rockets. We already see what happens with border towns like Sderot where there's bomb shelters everywhere and the place has a massively high rate of trauma and PTSD. I've been there and it's not a place you'd ever want to be or grow up in. The playgrounds structures serve as bomb shelters which they have everywhere around the city.
  • Manuel
    983
    They do have running water. There's a ton of misinformation out there. They're free to build their own facilities but the money gets mismanaged by the governing authorities. Gazans are free to go fishing but I don't know every fishing regulation there is.BitconnectCarlos

    Maybe the people at Oxfam are propagandists on Hamas' pay role. I'd have my doubts: https://www.oxfam.org/en/failing-gaza-undrinkable-water-no-access-toilets-and-little-hope-horizon

    But why would Israel do that without a concrete guarantee that the Palestinians have given up further territorial claims? Also it would mean kicking thousands of Jews off of land that they've lived in for hundreds if not thousands of years.BitconnectCarlos

    Palestinians lost 78% of there state in 1948. Yes some Jews lived in communities there, but it wasn't a part of a larger claim for the existence of a state. That exploded due to WWII. Zionism used to have many branches, including anti-State varieties.

    The settlers are taking land illegally, recognized by the whole world, except by Israel. I really don't think the whole world is anti-Semitic. 90,000 French settlers in Algeria had to leave because of the war in Algeria. I'm sure they had similar claims to land, or would have made some up even if they didn't have such a claim.

    It's a nice belief and I wish it were true.BitconnectCarlos

    One thing is what I'd like to be true another thing is what's likely to happen based on available evidence and reason. I'd like to live in a world without borders that guarantees everybody a generous UBI just for being a human being, under a single currency and a total ban on all guns. That's never going to happen. Likewise, Palestinians in overwhelmingly part because of the occupation hate Israel, yes. I'm sure most of them would love if Israel disappeared.

    I get that. I also get it that Israeli's would be afraid of such views and If I were an Israeli, I would not want my state to disappear. In reality, Israel has one of the best military armies in the world, given massive support by the US and has one of the most developed infrastructures in all the Arab world. Palestinians will not be able to expel the Jews. They don't have the means. Nor will they get them.

    That's the point. Israel will keep most of its land and will eventually stop being viewed so badly in the rest of the world. Compare Japan and Germany today to WWII, both are quite popular worldwide. Why would Israel be different in 30-40 years? So based on the realities of power, I don't see the massive risks you are concerned about.

    Palestinians gaining control of all of the WB just places more Israeli cities in range for Palestinian rockets. We already see what happens with border towns like Sderot where there's bomb shelters everywhere and the place has a massively high rate of trauma and PTSD.BitconnectCarlos

    Sure. But you reduce those threats by abiding to 242, what the world agrees to. How would Israel allow more missiles in the WB even if they gave up the territories? Then there'd be legitimate legal arguments for Israel to make for self defense as well as legal sanctions that could be made to other governments. Yes, every path has risks. You'll have to settle with the least bad option, the one which addresses the grievances of the Occupied in the territories.

    Portraying Israel as a victim no longer convinces most of the world. There has to be a reason for that that is not reducible to anti-Semitism.
  • 180 Proof
    4k
    I don't deny that settlers in the WB can be provocative, but I don't see them as being the main reason that Israel is vilified.BitconnectCarlos
    Pro-Israel bias, and yet ... but you can't handle the truth, can you?
    https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-apartheid
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k


    I'm not engaging you on this subject. After what you've said I'm done with you.

    Zionism = Jewish liberation movement. I don't care what you think about it.
  • 180 Proof
    4k
    :rofl:

    post-'67 zionism = apartheid, ethnic cleansing fascism. Your fanatical defense of the indefensible, BC, is shameful.

    Read it. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-apartheid
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k


    Not dealing with your bullshit feels so good. :cool:

    I don't interact with racists, period.
  • 180 Proof
    4k
    Feel yourself up good. Read it. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-apartheid

    I don't interact with racists, period.
    An onanist like you? Sure you do, BC. We all do. But especially you.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k


    You'd like us if we were dead, 180. You love dead Jews (or subjugated ones), they can't oppress anyone -- perfectly harmless, just like everyone should be! :nerd:
  • 180 Proof
    4k
    Antizionist =/= antisemitic. Zionists (apartheid, ethnic cleansing fascists) like you are much more of a threat to the future of the State of Israel than any of Israel's secular, pro-Human Rights, pro-Palestinian critics. GFY. :shade:

    https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-apartheid
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k
    An onanist like you? Sure you do, BC. We all do. But especially you.180 Proof

    I actually misspoke here and I wanted to correct this.

    You're not a racist, you're just a psycho. I thought you were a racist because you have no issues with Hamas murdering Israeli/Jewish families (gotta give it right back to the oppressor), but then when you said you'd more or less be fine with your own family being murdered if they were in the oppressor class I just decided to leave you alone.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    1.4k


    Moral integrity? Moral integrity? You condone Hamas' terror attacks, you don't get to tell me about moral integrity.

    I only question whether you really actually believe yourself. Is it cool with you when a suicide bomber walks into a night club in Tel Aviv and kills dozens of young people? Of course it is! Gotta fight Goliath!
    Go punch an Israeli baby in the head - just fighting Goliath. I'm not even offended anymore, you just divide the entire world into good guys vs bad guys and sometimes the bad guys are children but who cares just kill them anyway; individuals don't matter only groups matter.
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