• tim wood
    8.7k
    Beer may be made from many different ingredients, but beer is barley, for even when other grains are used, barley is included. We may say figuratively, then, that knowledge is our kind of beer, and scarcely can I drink enough of it but the drinking increases my thirst for more. But what the ingredients? Which the barley of our thinking? Four ingredients: reason, belief, ground, argument. Others seem species of these four. And each of these its own distinct place and function, beyond the bounds and constraints of which become destructive.

    And it seems, at least from evidence here, that we won't agree on the most important ingredient. But I will argue for reason.

    By reason I suppose I must mean logic, reason itself being the use of it, and the argument the incidental form it takes.

    That leaves belief and ground. If argument is made with and of reason, it is built on some ground, the argument being as sound as its ground and no sounder - although with flawed reasoning easily weaker than its ground. Ground, then, as foundation. But made of what?

    If knowledge, the hoped for result of argument, is the proposition that something is, then the ground seems to be not that some antecedent state is, but rather that it had better be! Ground, then, as imperative! The great difficulty with this being that it seems ultimately to be a matter of belief! Belief as being under all the turtles. But this "belief," though, in terms of ground, having absolutely nothing to do with any after-the-fact whole cloth claim or creation of desire.

    Let me try to clarify these "beliefs" and any distinction between them. As ground, necessary, incontrovertible, axiomatic, granted. And these are themselves hard and substantial things. To be sure, such things are not always forever immutable; they can change. The relevant idea here that argument built on that foundation fails when the ground falls away. Also it seems to call them "beliefs" vitiates their strength as ground, obscuring that strength is if it were "mere belief." It seems altogether more accurate to simply call them grounds. And while believed, not properly beliefs so-called.

    And mere belief that which is merely claimed. Unsupportable and unprovable, in some cases the unprovability being an essential feature. Religion an obvious source but also experience, practice, common sense, collected community wisdom: all these used not as ground but to underpin argument by claiming to stand as proofs of premises: all these, then, great impersonators of reason. For if they were objects of reason, then they would be provable, thus no longer mere beliefs.

    Confusing grounds and (mere) beliefs seems at least one great threat to the enterprise of gaining knowledge, maybe the greatest, certainly one of the most pernicious. How to tell the difference? For this I have an unsatisfactory and partial answer. And it may be that a complete answer has a retroactive aspect, because at least it would seem that the judgment - itself an appeal to reason - would require the knowledge in question.

    We can know mere belief by some of it signs. By the heat generated by the interaction of fanaticism, a part of all mere belief, and incoherence, the failure of reason intrinsic to every mere belief. These achieving a hot glow discernible in the argument, that when pressed can break out in a lava-like flow of words, "Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

    Which seems harsh on mere belief. This belief can inform, direct, point, guide - we all have them - speculative belief having its values and virtues. But in particular and in every case lacking that substance required in argument, and in many cases, necessarily so.

    I find presiding over all reason. The capacity to use tools to determine knowledge and winnow it from the chaff of unreason.
  • ghostlycutter
    67
    I think reason is knowledge analysis, it does not pervade creativity.

    Think, you analyse your total knowledge, an essence of this analysis rises above the mind, and you make a decision - reasoning.

    Science is the method we use to formulate constructs using evidence and experiment. Belief isn't in the realm of science, if it was, we wouldn't be able to formulate constructs. A construct, like a base, is something we can ground ideas on, whereas belief is not solid ground, however fertile it may be. I don't know why religion and science compete- the opposite of science is art.
  • jgill
    3.6k
    Well, I gather you've had your three cups of coffee, Tim!

    Thanks for explicating what should be axiomatic on a philosophy forum. :cool:
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    You got it precisely! Three big cups. No sleep tonight. And too much screen time. But I think as you well know, what should be ain't always so.
  • Fooloso4
    5.5k
    By reason I suppose I must mean logic, reason itself being the use of it, and the argument the incidental form it takes.tim wood

    Just yesterday I came across this:

    Nihilism is the concept of reason separated from the concept of the good. — Stanley Rosen

    Reason for the ancients was not the same as modern reason modeled on mathematics. It was closer to our other uses of the term, such as when we ask for reasons why. Rather than build on grounds, Aristotle for example, begins with what is said, either some popular opinion or what some highly regarded person said.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Reason for the ancients was not the same as modern reason modeled on mathematics.Fooloso4
    No indeed, Their needs not so much about what was so and what was not so, but rather what could either be or not be, or what to do or not do. And for that A. gave us Rhetoric and the arts of persuasion, his far from either the first or the last word. The - his - point being that Rhetoric and Dialectic (logic) are two different animals. And still are.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Nihilism is the concept of reason separated from the concept of the good. — Stanley Rosen
    This seems meaningful (to me) in passing, but not up close. It's not about reason and good, but about concepts of them - whatever that means. Reason itself a tool, like a 3/8ths-inch wrench, and with the same moral significance, which is to say none. Similarly with "the" good.

    One can even argue that reason in proper use, being about things that are or are the case, must be good - leaving space for a necessary explication of good. But all this circles back to circumstance and particular meaning in context.
  • Fooloso4
    5.5k
    Rhetoric and Dialectic (logic) are two different animals.tim wood

    They are, but the point Rosen is making is that knowledge requires both, and, in addition, poesis.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    No argument. Is his reduceable without too much violence to a few sentences that you could provide, that would make the persuasiveness of his demonstrably clear?
  • Fooloso4
    5.5k
    It's not about reason and good, but about concepts of them - whatever that means. Reason itself a tooltim wood

    Well, you present a concept of reason. Since we do not have knowledge of the good we must rely on our concept of the good, our views, opinions, discussions, as you say explication, and so on.

    with the same moral significancetim wood

    Tools can be put to both good and bad use. If reason is a tool then it can be put to good or bad use, hence moral significance.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    Nouns, adjectives, and the substantive use of adjectives. Use is itself neither good nor bad. Good use is good, bad use, bad. And while we may not have knowledge of the good, we certainly have some experience of it and from that do the best we can. Or in short I agree with you, except on some arcane matters of usage. Fair enough?
  • Fooloso4
    5.5k
    Is his reduceable without too much violence to a few sentences that you could provide, that would make the persuasiveness of his demonstrably clear?tim wood

    What I find interesting is that he sees the modern separation between the concepts of reason and good as being at the root of nihilism. The separation is not intended to be the result of nihilism but rather leads to it. The good does not mean some reified entity, but rather, as Plato and Aristotle stressed, what each of us desire. And so, reason and the pursuit of knowledge are not separate from desire, the desire to know, the desire for wisdom, that is, philosophy.
  • Wayfarer
    20.8k
    Reason for the ancients was not the same as modern reason modeled on mathematics.Fooloso4

    I think that Aristotle's four causes has to be mentioned in this context, namely, formal, efficient, material and final causes. So in answer to the question, why does [X] exist, accounts can be given on each of those grounds.

    Without wanting to drag the thread into an argument about the merits or flaws of Aristotelian metaphysics, there are a couple of major themes that emerge even from cursory consideration of this scheme, a major one being the relationship between 'cause', 'reason' and 'ground'.

    Reason may be the faculty which secures judgement, but, I would have thought, causation is at least implicit in the operation of reason. When we ask why something happens, or why some situation has come to be, we're asking, at least in part, what is the cause, or the causal factors, that give rise to it.

    It's the connection between cause and reason that introduces a metaphysical dimension. Formal reason, as expressed in the rules of logic, is a concise and well-bounded subject and may be learned and taught without any reference to metaphysics. But in practice, when reason is applied to anything other than formal procedures, then many knotty problems of the real nature of causal relations are introduced.

    This can be illustrated by an old saw, the response to the question 'why is the water boiling?' You can say, quite correctly, 'well, it's been put on the stove, and heated to 100 degrees celsius, which is its boiling point'. You can also say 'in preparation for making tea'. The first answer is given in terms of material and efficient causation, the second in terms of final causation - the reason why the water is on the stove. It was put there with a purpose in mind - a telos, in Aristotelian terms, which is extrinsic to the physical explanation of the phenomenon.

    I think the tendency in modern logic is to try and restrict consideration of the nature of reason, as far as possible, to material and efficient causation, so as to sidestep and obviate many of the open-ended questions that consideration of final causes leads to ('Why are we here?' being a hackneyed example). They're ruled out of bounds on the basis of being beyond the scope of empirical investigation. Hence the movement towards the 'instrumentalisation of reason' in modern philosophy, for which see this encyclopedia entry.
  • Gregory
    4.6k


    Basing a metaphysics on substance pure and simple has A causing B as the principle of all metaphysics. But there are other ways of conceiving this as infinite process and finite substance consuming itself in the flux and roll of cyclical reality. Aristotle was concerned to establish the static as all of reality but there is no necessity in believing this or any other metaphysics. Philosophy is not about proof like in mathematics, but continuing life and thoughts in a rational process
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    why does [X] exist, accounts can be given on each of those grounds.Wayfarer
    The Greek cause, αἰτία (aitia) is a square peg that does not fit into the round hole of the modern "cause." Thus it is a mistake to make the connection. From The Idea of Nature, "To a Greek, anything goes by the name "cause" which in any of the various senses of that word provides an answer to a question beginning with the word why" (75).

    The modern sense, from Hume, is that a cause is an antecedent event that results in some effect: C causes E. And this in turn in its own modern usage is burdened with its own problems, as, for example, deciding just exactly what constitutes a cause, and, the notion that cause-and-effect is a presupposition that broad parts of modern science have largely dismissed in favor of fields, keeping C&E mainly as a convenient fiction when useful.

    But none of this touches Aristotle's usage. HIs "causes" are all a-temporal. Material, efficient, final, formal, none of these "regarded as an event prior in time to its effect" (75). And this barely scratches the surface of a subject that will not quit being complicated.

    In any case, I would hold cause as a kind of reasoning, its legitimacy perhaps subject to its own argument, grounds, beliefs, and reason.
  • Janus
    15.5k
    I think reason (which just is argument) and ground (premises) are the two ingredients (the others are reducible to those). Although reason does come into the question of which premises are the more plausible, obviously.
  • Gregory
    4.6k
    Aristotle would have popped himself if he was told that a tightened string has more mass than a relaxed one, but yet it's true. Aristotileans have never been good scientists and I would say have never been good philosophers either. There is something wrong with insisting reality being be linear. They are not open to reality being an evolving paradox and want to face life with everything "figured out". Spiritual traditions of the East probably would see this as unwise, taking into account kaons and relaxing thought itself so it can move right again
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    What I find interesting is that he sees the modern separation between the concepts of reason and good as being at the root of nihilism. The separation is not intended to be the result of nihilism but rather leads to it. The good does not mean some reified entity, but rather, as Plato and Aristotle stressed, what each of us desire. And so, reason and the pursuit of knowledge are not separate from desire, the desire to know, the desire for wisdom, that is, philosophy.Fooloso4

    I find that interesting too. But let's try this: what do you think of it? Does geometry and arithmetic and logic lead to nihilism? There seems to it an element of rhetorical display that makes it difficult to discern (for me, anyway) if there's any meat there. I'm inclined to see nihilism as a kind of primordial state out of which reason arises, which applied yields the good. Reason then a ground for the good. And as corollary no room for nihilism in a rational world. Not to be confused with, as I suspect some do, evil. Yes? No?
  • Wayfarer
    20.8k
    I would hold cause as a kind of reasoningtim wood

    But surely, every form of reasoning must make use of the term 'because....' - and 'because' means means 'by cause of'. Your first sentence does so: my appeal to the Greek concept of reason is not relevant, because....

    So no reasoned argument can be phrased without reference to cause. Any syllogism will contain 'because', any rational argument hinge on 'because' - thereby escaping the bounds within which you want to constrain reason.

    I find presiding over all reason. The capacity to use tools to determine knowledge and winnow it from the chaff of unreason.tim wood

    I also take issue with your description of reason as 'a tool'. Using reason, we can make all kinds of tools - in fact the reason h. sapiens became such an adept tool- and machine- maker is because of the capacity to reason. But to present reason to one tool among many is to deprecate it. It's no more a tool than is language; it's an ability, to make, among other things, tools.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    I think reason (which just is argument) and ground (premises) are the two ingredients (the others are reducible to those). Although reason does come into the question of which premises are the more plausible, obviously.Janus

    You divide it differently than I do. For me reason(ing) is the application of logic, and the argument itself just the particular application. And ground not the premises, the premises being propositions that themselves rest on some ground. And these divisions seem useful to me, even if just to keep a close eye on what I am talking about.
  • Gregory
    4.6k
    The "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematica" in science is about the unreasonable effectiveness of science in general. That is, if reasonableness is truly reasonable, which it isn't because.The "next step up" can seem very unreasonable
  • Janus
    15.5k
    Fair enough. The way I see it is that argument is the application of reason (logic), and in order to be a good argument must be valid (conclusions following from premises). I say grounds just are premises, because they are the starting assumptions to which valid reasoning is applied in a valid argument, I don't see belief as being an essential part of knowledge, or if it is, only in a psychological sense, only in the sense that we might be said to possess knowledge.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    my appeal to the Greek concept of reasonWayfarer
    But you're not appealing to the Greek concept of reason but instead to a modern sense of cause which you mistakenly "find" in Aristotle. As to modern usage of :because, do we say that two plus two is four "because"? And this takes us back into the problem of cause and effect when there is no cause and no effect.

    In any case the substance of the OP is that reason is the engine, and mere belief as any sort of grounds ruinous to its functioning.
  • Janus
    15.5k
    In any case the substance of the OP is that reason is the engine, and mere belief as any sort of grounds ruinous to its functioning.tim wood

    We adopt grounds because they seem reasonable to us. This is where belief comes in. Can we count the "seeming reasonable" as an example of valid reasoning from premises to conclusion? I don't think so. If it were so, then it would be nothing but reason; which seems absurd; that's why I say the two ingredients are reason and grounds.
  • Wayfarer
    20.8k
    you're not appealing to the Greek concept of reason but instead to a modern sense of cause which you mistakenly "find" in Aristotle.tim wood

    I'm linking 'cause' to 'reason' in a manner suggested by the 'principle of sufficient reason'.

    The principle of sufficient reason states that everything must have a reason or a cause. The modern formulation of the principle is usually attributed to early Enlightenment philosopher Gottfried Leibniz, although the idea was conceived of and utilized by various philosophers who preceded him, including Anaximander, Parmenides, Archimedes, Plato and Aristotle, Cicero, Avicenna, Thomas Aquinas, and Spinoza.

    In any case the substance of the OP is that reason is the engine, and mere belief as any sort of grounds ruinous to its functioning.tim wood

    Which I suspect contains suppressed premisses, and/or a hidden agenda, namely, to seperate reason from belief, chiefly so as to uphold the purported division between 'reason and faith'.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    because they are the starting assumptionsJanus
    Valid is as to form, which cares not for content and is perfectly indifferent to it. But no syllogism no matter how valid can prove the moon is made of green cheese. Thus grounds for premises. Point?
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    which it isn't because. The "next step up" can seem....Gregory
    Being and seeming. And what can seem "very unreasonable" may be entirely reasonable.
  • Banno
    23.4k
    ...beer is barley...tim wood

    There are gluten-fee beers. They do not contain barley.

    Do you know how to ride a bike? How do reason, belief, ground, and argument fit here?

    But more importantly, you left out one rather important bit: truth.

    Can you know stuff that is not true?


    Edit: and in case you are tempted by a True Scotsman, here is a Scottish gluten free beer.
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    to seperate reason from belief, chiefly so as to uphold the purported division between 'reason and faith'.Wayfarer

    Nothing hidden. Matters of faith, or mere belief, are a claim. Do you say they are more than that? As such any argument that relies on mere belief is built on an implicit if. That is, if it's true, then.... But with the granting of such ifs, anything can be proven. Why not start with recognizing and acknowledging faith, mere belief, as what it is, a speculative claim that can ground nothing except speculative argument for speculative conclusions. And these have their uses, but not as a ground for knowledge.
  • Janus
    15.5k
    Valid is as to form, which cares not for content and is perfectly indifferent to it. But no syllogism no matter how valid can prove the moon is made of green cheese. Thus grounds for premises. Point?tim wood

    Knowledge must consist in valid reasoning from sound grounds if knowledge as JTB holds, and is the model under consideration. How do we know that grounds are sound? Perhaps we never really do, but we are said to possess knowledge if the grounds are sound, we have good reason for holding them, and the reasoning to our conclusions is valid. What more need be said?
  • Fooloso4
    5.5k
    Does geometry and arithmetic and logic lead to nihilism?tim wood

    It depends on what use you put them to.

    Reason then a ground for the good.tim wood

    Why is reason a ground for the good? Reason can just as easily be used to bad as to good ends. Once you introduce ends then reason alone is not sufficient. What is the end or goal of reason? Reason?
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