• BBQueue
    24
    Why does God have the Israelites march around the walls of Jericho once a day for six days and seven times on the seventh day before the walls fall? There doesn't appear to be any particular significance to doing this as far as I can tell, in fact there are a lot of other things that people are told by God to do in the Bible that don't appear to have any real reason or relation between them. But the people almost always seem to do the things without any apparent question even among themselves as to why doing A is supposed to lead to B.

    Did people in those days simply not think so critically about these things or did they just blindly obey orders (by "God")? Because to be honest it is NOT a good thing in any case to just blindly obey orders, even by someone who you trust, because it means that you will essentially do anything that you are told and without knowing why, even if it is a bad thing to do. The Nazis were in fact trained to do just this, and to just do things that they were "supposed" to do without knowing or asking why or knowing if it was a bad thing. I would argue that some of them likely did not even know what a "bad thing" was.
  • Gregory
    2.3k
    Answer: blind obedience

    Remember when God told one of his prophets to use his poop as fire fuel when he cooked his food? It's in the Bible. Christians like to call Muslims primitive (Tucker Carlson called middle easterners backward monkeys) but their Old Testament is just another Quaran
  • BBQueue
    24


    In fairness, Jews basically only follow the old testament, and Jesus (CHRIST) does not appear until the new testament. I have also been to a number of (Christ)ian churches that only have copies of the new testament, and even our local dollar store sells the new testament without the old testament. Ask yourself why this is the case.

    I have never been to any type of church other than a Christian church, primarily because every one of the dozen or so churches that probably exist within a 50 mile radius of here are likely of a Christian denomination with the exception of one Jewish synagogue that I know of but have never been to. But every one that I have been to that had copies of the Bible either had he old and new testament, or either just the new testament. In other words, Christians are clearly not all about the old testament in the way that Jews are, for example, and you are making a generalization about Christians and the old testament that applies less to them than it does perhaps to any other religion.

    Keep in mind that the "blind obedience" that is present throughout the old testament does not present itself in the new testament, and that Jesus actually existed and this is rarely debated by anyone, whereas God's existence is almost always debated by different people of all faiths and religions.
  • Outlander
    1k
    Just to remind everyone of the meta here, and if you are a skeptic and disbelieve that's fine, I'm essentially discussing the absolute points and intentions of the fictional Santa Claus or Easter Bunny here, nevertheless, there is fact and fiction even in.. straight fiction. So.

    Both Christians and Jews believe in the Old Testament assertion of a Messiah, sent from God, to lead humanity. Now, the differentiation comes in two forms. First, most if not all Christians believe Jesus was in fact this prophesied Messiah, and did in fact absolve humanity of it's sins, crimes, and eventual punishments as described in the Old Testament, essentially replacing the Ten Commandments with the Great Commandment. In other words the words, commands, etc. of the Old Testament are now annulled, replaced with those of the New Testament. Some, I repeat some, Christians believe Jesus was God in the flesh while others believe he was simply the messenger, this is relevant because Jews believe God never shows/appears/manifests himself in human form. This is in contradiction to the belief of most if not all Jews that Jesus was in fact not the prophesied messiah and was essentially just some guy, or even a sorcerer, as he was accused of "having a demon" and yes, using sorcery ie. healing on the Sabbath, etc. Which I find interesting as you realize in whatever society the Bible is truly from it implies "magical healing powers" were not only normal and commonplace, but so much so that they were codified into law, thus resulting in forbidding of "healing on the Sabbath". Which just gives you some context into.. I dunno something or another. :lol:

    Basically, both groups believe in the idea of a Messiah. The difference is one, Christianity, believes he came, thus nullifying the Old Testament, Ten Commandments ie, Noahide Law (and most importantly it's punishments from above) .. while the other, Judiasm believes, he was not the Messiah, and so all the aforementioned are still in effect, ie. the punishments for breaking the commandments/Noahide Law.
  • schopenhauer1
    5.2k
    while the other, Judiasm believes, he was not the Messiah, and so all the aforementioned are still in effect, ie. the punishments for breaking the commandments/Noahide Law.Outlander

    Correct on debating fiction.. but if you're going to explain the fiction, you have to do it right..

    Normative Rabbinic Judaism as it was developed from Second Temple period until about the 800s CE, doesn't believe "the messiah" would abrogate Jewish law. Many thought he would be a military hero and overthrow the empires that be (i.e. Rome). The messiah was supposed to usher in the end of times, and an age of peace. The king would rule in the era and everyone would follow the commandments according to Torah if Jewish or some form of Noahide if gentile.

    There was a movement in the 1600s for another Jewish messiah claimant.. Shabbatai Tzvi who kind of copied Jesus' playbook by saying that certain laws that were prohibited are now permitted, but that was unusual and probably taken from Christianity if using Occam's Razor.

    As to whether even early Jewish-Christians (the ones that knew Jesus when he was alive), even thought the law should be changed or abrogated is another misconception. There is ample evidence that the Jesus Movement was more another interpretation of how to follow Mosaic Law. Later people, mainly Paul made it more about faith in Jesus as a sacrifice, seem to be where the big turning point took place into a completely different movement. This appealed to populations around the Mediterranean that weren't Jewish. The Book of Acts and Galatians still seems to retain this tension between Paul's "innovations" and the original members (mainly James and Peter).

    There is more connection perhaps with the term "Son of Man" which stems from Ezekiel's vision and the Enoch tradition where the early Biblical figure Enoch was transformed perhaps into some angelic figure and perhaps associated with the Son of Man in Ezekiel. If this is a correct interpretation, it could have implications for a tradition of some angelic connection with messianic overtones.. There are times where Jesus seems to indicate that he is like a spokesperson for the Son of Man. Anyways, carry on.
  • Outlander
    1k
    taken from Christianityschopenhauer1

    No, see, there is no "Christianity" without the fulfillment of the original Jewish prophecy ie. the Old Testament (specifically the times of it). The Old Testament (Abrahamic religious root prior to Christianity/prominence of Jesus) states, we are sinners, essentially damned, and will work until we turn to dust. If they didn't at least believe in the idea of Messiah, they were ignorant of Jewish law/prophecy/their true "alleged" religion and faith. It's just that simple. They did reject Jesus, and quite so, solely on the grounds they did not believe the prophecy was fulfilled and he was a false Messiah. But that's beyond the point. Just sorting it out for those reading who are curious. But, as you say, fiction, why not argue over whether or not the Easter Bunny is light or dark pink right?
  • schopenhauer1
    5.2k
    No, see, there is no "Christianity" without the fulfillment of the original Jewish prophecy ie. the Old Testament (specifically the times of it). The Old Testament (Abrahamic religious root prior to Christianity/prominence of Jesus) states, we are sinners, essentially damned, and will work until we turn to dust. If they didn't at least believe in the idea of Messiah, they were ignorant of Jewish law/prophecy/their true "alleged" religion and faith. It's just that simple. They did reject Jesus, and quite so, solely on the grounds they did not believe the prophecy was fulfilled and he was a false Messiah. But that's beyond the point. Just sorting it out for those reading who are curious. But, as you say, fiction, why not argue over whether or not the Easter Bunny is light or dark pink right?Outlander

    So when I say "Christianity" here, it means from the fully developed religion that as I claimed earlier, developed further from some version of Paul's original ideas. I do not mean Jesus the historical figure in this case. The rest of what I wrote should inform you of the ideas surrounding the historical figure. Did you fully read what I wrote?
  • Gregory
    2.3k
    All religions make up stories because that along with ritual is the societal function of religions. The stories are more for the young and the rituals are for the adult and meant to be followed blindly. Christianity starts as stories and believin in the book of Revelation takes blind faith as well but not long after Jesus rituals set in
  • Outlander
    1k
    Did you fully read what I wrote?schopenhauer1

    I must have missed that part sorry.

    ...

    Long before Paul or Jesus or anyone here on Earth as you reference them, the prophecy existed. The restrictions we are required to follow by penalty of damnation (Ten Commandments/Noahide Law), will one day be lifted by a prophesied Messiah ala "Savior". This is the Jewish prophecy. If you believe this prophecy has been fulfilled, you're a Christian. If you believe it has not but will be, you're a Jew. There's no other avenues. Other than yours, that it's all a bunch of crazy stories and the most miraculous event or series of events are nothing but coincidences, for what other possibility is there? Aside from the IRS scammers.
  • Possibility
    1.9k
    Why does God have the Israelites march around the walls of Jericho once a day for six days and seven times on the seventh day before the walls fall? There doesn't appear to be any particular significance to doing this as far as I can tell, in fact there are a lot of other things that people are told by God to do in the Bible that don't appear to have any real reason or relation between them. But the people almost always seem to do the things without any apparent question even among themselves as to why doing A is supposed to lead to B.

    Did people in those days simply not think so critically about these things or did they just blindly obey orders (by "God")? Because to be honest it is NOT a good thing in any case to just blindly obey orders, even by someone who you trust, because it means that you will essentially do anything that you are told and without knowing why, even if it is a bad thing to do. The Nazis were in fact trained to do just this, and to just do things that they were "supposed" to do without knowing or asking why or knowing if it was a bad thing. I would argue that some of them likely did not even know what a "bad thing" was.
    BBQueue

    I get the sense from the OT that most of it was written with the benefit of hindsight incorporated into the story. It’s also unclear from what perspective or how far after the event most stories were written. So, to assume the account is what actually happened, rather than a later interpretation of what happened for the purpose of imparting certain information, would be a mistake as far as I can see. What they know is that B happened, and they did A before it, therefore God had apparently told them to do A.

    Perhaps the walls were simply poorly constructed, and they deduced that by simply marching en masse around the outside they could eventually unsettle the foundations enough to weaken the structure. Perhaps the only evidence they had was that there were once walls around Jericho that had since been reduced to rubble, and everything else is hearsay and hyperbole, woven into the existing cultural fabric. The message is clear: trust in what we refer to as ‘God’, here’s why.

    As for thinking critically, they certainly didn’t appear to value rationality over emotion or to hold out for evidence the way we do now.
  • schopenhauer1
    5.2k
    The restrictions we are required to follow by penalty of damnation (Ten Commandments/Noahide Law), will one day be lifted by a prophesied Messiah ala "Savior". This is the Jewish prophecy. If you believe this prophecy has been fulfilled, you're a Christian. If you believe it has not but will be, you're a Jew. There's no other avenues. Other than yours, that it's all a bunch of crazy stories and the most miraculous event or series of events are nothing but coincidences, for what other possibility is there? Aside from the IRS scammers.Outlander

    But this characterization of Jewish belief is not quite right here, which is why I interjected. I explained it previously, but let me quote myself again.

    Normative Rabbinic Judaism as it was developed from Second Temple period until about the 800s CE, doesn't believe "the messiah" would abrogate Jewish law. Many thought he would be a military hero and overthrow the empires that be (i.e. Rome). The messiah was supposed to usher in the end of times, and an age of peace. The king would rule in the era and everyone would follow the commandments according to Torah if Jewish or some form of Noahide if gentile.schopenhauer1

    I guess the big misconception here is your idea of "penalty of damnation". Damnation wasn't really a conception that goes along with sin. Rather, there are various sacrifices and prayers that were to be made to atone. There was a whole Day of Atonement that Jews from all over the Mediterranean would try to migrate to Jerusalem to participate in. The idea of hell isn't much of a concept in Second Temple Judaism at all. That kind of thing probably came from Greek notions of Tartarus and Plato's idea of a soul. Rather, at this period, it was more like, there would be a general resurrection of the dead (if they were good I guess) and this would happen at the end of times with the messiah. However, Jewish belief does not wait for a messianic figure to "save" them from following the commandments. If anything they would most likely believe he would restore the commandments to its fullest glory.

    Your characterization is actually Pauline theology as applied to Judaism. You are actually using Paul's ideology to continue the very misconception where I am saying he helped create in the first place which transformed the historical Jesus Movement into its own separate religion. Or at least that is one major idea in many historical circles.
  • Banno
    11k
    Why does God have the Israelites march around the walls of Jericho once a day for six days and seven times on the seventh day before the walls fall?BBQueue

    Because the god of the bible is a bit of a dick.
  • Gregory
    2.3k
    I am from the Catholic tradition. Catholics usually say that the Jews may follow mosaic ritual laws and all that but only within the Christian theological scheme wherein. Otherwise they are seen as rejecting their Messiah of course. Some more progressive Catholics say that Jewish people are actually bound by God to follow both Mosaic and Catholic law. I remember Art Sippo and Robert Sungenis debating this years ago. I don't see how it's truly progressive to put such a burden on Jewish people and this goes to show how viewpoints look different from different angles. Another example of such phenomena is removal of the clitoris in Africa. Some secular progressive anthropologist support it, although if it had been an exclusively traditional Catholic practice these same people would be raising hell over it. The 3 major monotheistic religions are very related and have their place in history. What place they have in the future is for us to determine. Throwing gays off building, wives being obligated to burn themselves to death with their dead spouse, and many other practices fall to the waste side of modern society evolves and adapts
  • EricH
    302
    Why does God have the Israelites march around the walls of Jericho once a day for six days and seven times on the seventh day before the walls fall?BBQueue

    Isn't it obvious? On the seventh day, six times would not have been enough and eight times would have been too many.

    If you're still confused, perhaps this will clarify things.

    Not sure about those first six days tho. Seems a bit excessive to me. . . .
  • Gregory
    2.3k
    I saw a video one time about Christians "lying for Jesus". The Christians whos videos were shown clearly knew all the Bible verses that were relevant, but they told their audience that slavery allowed to the Jews by Jewish law only involved indentured servitude. They didn't mention that the laws said they are to keep the women and children of those they conquer as slaves and those individuals' descendants as slaves for all perpetuity. In fact the descendents of all non-Jewish slaves were to remain slaves to the Jews. This was common in those times but the more I've read the more commonplace the Old Testament becomes. Kant said he believed in the New Testament only and that most of the Old was not true religion. Germans latter argued that the Jews started the idea of "my race is specially chosen" but of course they fell for that themselves and called themselves the master race by nature (instead of election by God).

    I don't look to ancient times for authority. That is, others bind themselves to laws they hate because they think they are bound by what ancient history "tells them". Those times are so long ago however that for me they don say much to us with certainty and it certainly won't tell me how to live my life
  • Gnomon
    1.3k
    Why does God have the Israelites march around the walls of Jericho once a day for six days and seven times on the seventh day before the walls fall?BBQueue
    The biblical "reason" for marching around in circles is Blind Obedience (just because God commanded it). But, in retrospect, after 3400 years, believers could imagine that God knew what the point of the meaningless march was, even if the marchers didn't.

    Today, we have learned from sad experience that large groups or people, marching in a particular rhythm, can cause large structures to collapse, due to "dynamic loading". That's also why some modern buildings have fallen down during a minor earthquake : because they were designed to support steady vertical gravity loads, but not dynamic (moving) lateral loads.

    So, it's possible, but not very likely, that the Hebrews had learned the implicit lesson of dynamic loading, perhaps from millennia of Egyptian construction experience. Maybe that's why their large masonry structures were pyramids instead of boxes. The pyramid is the most stable shape for a pile of stones. But the stone walls of Jericho were probably just vertical stacks of irregular rocks, with only mud for mortar. If so, the rhythmic vibrations of 40,000 marchers, plus a blast from a thousand horns could conceivably crack the walls, and cause them to fall apart. This is just conjecture though, because the biblical record was not concerned with physical explanations for miraculous events. :nerd:

    Angers bridge collapse : "The bridge collapsed on 16 April 1850, while a battalion of French soldiers was marching across it, killing over 200 of them".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angers_Bridge
    https://time.com/5597069/jericho-history/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jericho
  • Outlander
    1k
    Maybe they were radioactive. See radiation damage. Or time lords that distort the flow of time. Kinda like in the ending of Superman: The Movie, but the opposite.

    What? It's as good a guess as any.
  • BBQueue
    24
    As for thinking critically, they certainly didn’t appear to value rationality over emotion or to hold out for evidence the way we do now

    This was likely because people in those days wanted something or someone to believe in, and to present a rational argument about anything would essentially destroy the ability they had to hope or believe in what they had previously been told.

    Of course I don't know if that is actually the case, or if people in those days were just really so simple-minded that they would trust and believe in anything without giving it a second thought, but I certainly don't doubt this either as education was far less prevalent and those who did question or challenge things were often ridiculed or shunned by society (like Columbus, for instance).
  • BBQueue
    24
    The movement causing a wall to ultimately fall down does make sense in theory, and I believed that it made sense from the onset. However I was more interested in why they were specifically told to march around the walls "once a day for 6 days and 7 times on the seventh day." I can't figure any particular significance in that, save the fact perhaps that there are 7 days in a present day week (whether or not that was the case at the time). Regardless though, it could not in theory be determined prematurely that the wall would fall exactly after the marches on the 7th day, and not before or after, or not at all. The idea that it did just happen to fall as God determined that it would is extremely farfetched, and it honestly blows my mind that there are people out there who take this and other biblical prophecies as anything more than just a coincidence or a metaphor.
  • Outlander
    1k
    it honestly blows my mind that there are people out there who take this and other biblical prophecies as anything more than just a coincidence or a metaphor.BBQueue

    You shouldn't. Absent of scientific understanding, something you did nothing to bring about, we live in a world of spirits, gods, and magic. Don't be so hard on your ancestors. After all, they are why you're here today.

    .. you've never experienced something miraculous or unable to be explained, to the degree that it made you think perhaps that the scientific process, with it's "renaissance" aka "modern science" having existed for a mere few hundred years, isn't quite complete or that perhaps we don't know all there is to know? Well, one can say that's equally mind blowing. Even foolish.
  • Gnomon
    1.3k
    The idea that it did just happen to fall as God determined that it would is extremely farfetched, and it honestly blows my mind that there are people out there who take this and other biblical prophecies as anything more than just a coincidence or a metaphor.BBQueue
    Yes. The biblical account of Jericho was a mythical history of something that happened many generations before it was written down. However, since some of the Priests & Scribes of Israel were numerologists, perhaps learned during the Babylonian captivity, the number seven has symbolic and superstitious implications. We may view the wall fall as a coincidence, but they would interpret the event as inevitable. :cool:

    Hebrews 11:30 : By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

    Jericho : This has led some to conclude that the final Canaanite city was destroyed 150 years earlier, in the Middle Bronze Age, and that there was no city of Jericho for Joshua to defeat. However, this seems to stretch the evidence; all we can conclude is that the walls that fell were constructed in the Middle Bronze Age.
    https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/2019/05/25/biblical-sites-three-discoveries-at-jericho/

    Significance of numbers in Judaism : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significance_of_numbers_in_Judaism
  • unenlightened
    5.5k
    Why does God have the Israelites march around the walls of Jericho once a day for six days and seven times on the seventh day before the walls fall?BBQueue

    It makes a better story. If Joshua just waved his hand and the walls came tumbling down at once, it would be unsatisfying, like using a developer's cheat in a computer game. The lads have to think they are contributing.
  • TheMadFool
    8.7k
    If an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good being was on your side in a battle, wouldn't it be silly to question faer commands? Of course, assuming such a being exists.
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