Terry Pratchett's Good Omens - Hopepunk?

Yes. But it wouldn't be a Gothic novel then; it would be literary fiction and I hadn't signed up for that much effort.* Even the one that I intended as a kind of spoof of historical romance turned itself into a subversive social commentary. Damn — Vera Mont

This started me wondering about genres, subgenre and how certain kinds of writing are classified. How they might limit the writer by having a need to keep to criteria. Why can't a nasty Gothic character have nice elements?

I am bemused by the 'hopepunk' sandwich. A genre/subgenre between 'grimdark' and 'noblebright'.

Initially describing a subgenre, its use has extended to refer to motivations, narrative tone, outlook. The editors of Uncanny Magazine define it as "radical empathy" and "radical kindness", contrasting it to the hopelessness of grimdark.[9] Rowland wrote that "Hopepunk isn’t pristine and spotless. Hopepunk is grubby, because that’s what happens when you fight."[10] Although they may include horrible events, injustice, and inequality, hopepunk stories have characters who choose to act, rejecting pessimism and passivity. Positive human traits and community contribute to solutions.[11
Stories in the hopepunk subgenre reject the fatalism and cynicism of grimdark. Hopepunk characters persevere, believing in the possibility of something better in the face of difficult realities.[12] Hopepunk is an approach in which characters choose to fight to make things better, and are motivated by noble motives.

Wiki has it all.

And then there is Star Trek. Jean-Luc Picard: Starfleet's Hopepunk Captain.
Does he stand as a testament to the power of hope?
https://www.startrek.com/en-un/news/jean-luc-picard-starfleets-hopepunk-captain

PS I was also rather taken by the thoughts of Ernst Bloch. Wondering about him, I searched and found:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13030/ernst-bloch-and-the-philosophy-of-hope/p1

@180 Proof's
'Hope' is just lipstick on a nightmare.

They want the middle ages back, because they cannot imagine anything better than having someone to kick down at while their masters give them attaboys. — Vera Mont

May the pox be upon them in the new Golden Age of MAHA. Make America Healthy Again. Really?!

Robert F Kennedy Jr has been nominated to lead the Health and Human Services department. This man is someone who is anti-vaccinations.
If that becomes policy, it dangerous to the population and anti-choice.
So much for freedom.

I've had enough of this. Turning to hope. I find that I already explored this!
Way back when I felt up to starting threads...2 years ago. Reading it now, I feel quite amazed...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13686/questions-of-hope-love-and-peace/p1

I read the SEP article again, as if for the first time. Notes:

I was surprised by Kant and his question 'For what may I hope?' as one fundamental to philosophy. The 3 objects of hope: 1. own happiness 2. moral progress 3. moral improvement of the human race.

Camus' apparent negative view of hope comes from the idea that human existence is absurd. I don't see this as having anything to do with courage. Also it is specific to religious hope for life after death or a social utopia. The image of Sisyphus is one of perseverance but to what end? And why would lack of hope for a better future make him 'happy' ? Indeed, there is a suggestion that Camus allows for a 'strange hope'. He called 'The Rebel' a book of hope.

So many definitions of hope, its role and function in analytical philosophy...

'Radical hope' (Lear) catches my eye. Where positive hope is an active response to political injustice. (It seems to tie in with literature's 'hopepunk' ? Still to be discussed.)

When it comes to climate change, some philosophers see hope as having instrumental value. It 'sustains action where the attainment of the ultimate goal - managing climate change - is uncertain.' (McKinnon 2014, Roser 2019).

But, this is where I must stop. We are in the Lounge. A place to chat about kittens. Over to you, Vera!

You've both given me much to think about :flower:
I have a few things I'd like to consider and question. Mostly, concerning hope and creativity. Later...

Before I go out, I have this article to share re global gender issues in politics. With stats:

What’s behind the global political divide between young men and women?
Trump’s victory in the US shone a light on the growing political polarisation between between young male and female voters happening all over the world

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/14/us-election-donald-trump-voters-gender-race-data

Sure, but I perceive no shortage of writers exploring the deepest, darkest crannies, describing the vilest acts in the most graphic terms. They don't need any help from me. I'm more interested in the small, everyday pleasures and pains, loyalties and betrayals, courageous and craven acts or ordinary people. Lately, I've been exploring how someone decides which side to take in a conflict. If my protagonists end up with the forces of light, I'm in no position to fault them. — Vera Mont

Hey. Steady on Vera!
I wasn't asking you to go deep, deep down into depravity or its torture chambers.
It was about you stopping at Chapter 3 because you couldn't keep your nasty character from turning nice. What's wrong with keeping complex and contradictory aspects of a character? Doesn't that make her richer with hidden depths?

Interesting to explore side-taking in conflict. How recent events can split families right down the middle.
How to heal that wound, if ever we can...

I sniff around the word 'humane' like a poodle at the corner lamp-post. — Vera Mont

Love it! :cool:

Fwiw, my conception of courage sans hope is primarily indebted to Aristotle, Spinoza & Camus (as well as e.g. Laozi, Epicurus, Epictetus, P. Zapffe, S. Beckett, C. Rosset, A. Murray ... who aren't mentioned in the article) and grounded in lived experience. — 180 Proof

Yes, I do appreciate that, thanks.
However, I don't have a full understanding of this and what it means for you. This conception of 'courage sans hope'. For those, like me, with limited time, energy and resources and not quite so invested in philosophical concepts, there is always wiki. From the mythology section on 'Hope':

From ancient times, people have recognized that a spirit of hope had the power to heal afflictions and helps them bear times of great suffering, illnesses, disasters, loss, and pain caused by the malevolent spirits and events.[48] In Hesiod's Works and Days, the personification of hope is named Elpis.

Norse mythology however considered Hope (Vön) to be the slobber dripping from the mouth of Fenris Wolf:[49] their concept of courage rated most highly a cheerful bravery in the absence of hope.[50 — Wiki - Hope

How does your conception of courage/hope compare with a Norse warrior?
Care to tell your story, or part of it? Sans salivating :wink:

My experience probably leans more to 'hope sans courage'.

I have hope and it asks nothing of or from me. It's just there. Along with love. I also 'hope that...X, Y or Z'.
Generally, it is a hope for better wellbeing. For individuals and other beings in the world.

I may have courage in dealing with challenging health issues and services. My own and others. But I think it always stems from or coexists with hope. There is hope, along with a sense of perspective.
A case of 'Hope for the best, prepare for the worse'. Or 'plan for the worse, hope for the best'.
A mix of optimism and being realistic.

***

In previous posts, I've mentioned Emily Dickinson's poem 'Hope' and how I was drawn to it.
It's interesting to consider her religious school curriculum where:

religious questions were examined and the state of the students’ faith assessed. The young women were divided into three categories: those who were “established Christians,” those who “expressed hope,” and those who were “without hope.”

Much has been made of Emily’s place in this latter category and of the widely circulated story that she was the only member of that group. Years later fellow student Clara Newman Turner remembered the moment when Mary Lyon “asked all those who wanted to be Christians to rise.” Emily remained seated. No one else did. Turner reports Emily’s comment to her: “‘They thought it queer I didn’t rise’—adding with a twinkle in her eye, ‘I thought a lie would be queerer.’ — Poetry Foundation - Emily Dickinson

Here is her poem: “Hope” is the thing with feathers. Read by Claire Danes and signed by Rachel, age 9.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/video/77372/hope-is-the-thing-with-feathers

***

In today's situation, I think that people such as yourself committed to a cause and willing to show up and fight for it have courage and also hope. Hope for a better future. Hope to persuade others.
Showing how Democratic values are different, better than those of hard-right Republicans.

It will need more of this hope and courage in the days to come.

Courage, mon ami :strong: :pray:

Here we go. The Guardian is taking it on :fire:

In addition to withdrawing from Musk's X, a reporter questions Project 2025.

Kevin Roberts, the head of the influential rightwing thinktank the Heritage Foundation, told a Guardian reporter to “go to hell” at the launch of Roberts’s new book on Tuesday night, then threw the reporter out of the venue, apparently in response to reporting on the organization.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/13/kevin-roberts-project-2025-book-events

No more invites, then? Pretty much what happened on the Tory watch with Channel 4 news blocked.
The hard right can't stand the light. No scrutiny allowed. So much for freedom.

...on one side we have optimism, humourlessness, and inhumanity--a lack of attention to real people and real experience--and on the other side we have hope and humour, where humour is often if not always built on an attention to misfortune. — Jamal

That's given me plenty to consider. My first reaction is that I don't care for the either/or scenario. Optimism includes hopefulness. But yes, I agree that some can minimise the bad stuff. To the extent that can be 'toxic' I have yet to explore.

I tend to go with hope and see it as a motivating force. To bring about change. And with that comes courage and creativity. A positive way forward. It can come from misfortune or simply wanting something better. It is a noun, a verb and a philosophical concept. Is optimism more of a psychological state or personality type? A few more P's added to the list.
From positive psychology: https://positivepsychology.com/learned-optimism/

Humour and a lack of it can travel alongside both, no?
Black humour. Is there such a thing as 'white humour'?

Excellent News.

The Guardian said content on the platform about which it had longstanding concerns included far-right conspiracy theories and racism. It added that the site’s coverage of the US presidential election had crystallised its decision.

“This is something we have been considering for a while given the often disturbing content promoted or found on the platform, including far-right conspiracy theories and racism,” it said.

It added: “The US presidential election campaign served only to underline what we have considered for a long time: that X is a toxic media platform and that its owner, Elon Musk, has been able to use its influence to shape political discourse.” — Guardian - No longer posts on Elon Musk's X

I tend to be wary about what I write. Maybe too much, and maybe it wasn't a big deal. — javi2541997

I think we can all be wary about what we write - sometimes editing what we really think or feel.
And that's fair enough. It's good to be thoughtful and consider how we present our views to others. I too have deleted some posts. Regretting either the quality or quantity - my tone or whatever.

However, your thoughts stimulated without need for further elaboration. Imagining a 'what if' scenario :up: You are that Creative :fire:

I think that some of the things discussed about creativity are pertinent. To well-being.
The fear of making mistakes can block us. And that is where some education systems let us down.

Where mistakes are punished. And different kinds of intelligence are not explored or given free rein. There is a richness in imagination. A real gift if used wisely. To educate the whole being.

Hope
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hope/

If I were a teacher of language, I would ask my students to write a poem each Friday. Doesn't matter the topic or type. Just to power up their creativity. I think it would be interesting to see if their imagination grows in the following weeks. — javi2541997

Hmm, yeah. I don't know. I understand what the aim is and applaud it.
But, for me, it sounds too prescriptive with the teacher still controlling. This is what we will do and this is when we will do it. Don't you think that creativity should start the day. Sparking the way forward.
Brighter and better learning in all subjects...listening and asking questions, all the better to know.

Once upon a time...the day started with 'Assembly'. At secondary school, it was compulsory to bring your New Testament along! This had been given to everyone on their first day.
( I often 'forgot' mine, and hurried in, head down, clutching my pocket French dictionary)

Language learning was for the most part rote. Not so much conversation but grammar.
Declensions an' all that. And what is it about labelling nouns and accompanying adjectives as female, male and neuter! Jeez :roll:

Edit: @javi2541997 - I see you have deleted your post. Why?

Writing creatively. For TPF Literature Event - or anywhere...

Sometimes it's all in the style, tone, or approach, rather than the theme. The theme can be serious or dark while the tone is light, playful, or optimistic. As a reader it's not themes I find life-affirming and intellectually or emotionally energizing; rather it's in the creativity itself. Sometimes it's obvious that the writer is having fun even when writing a tragedy.
— Jamal

There's a deeper layer here too. Optimism is in a sense inhumane (it's hope that is humane), and there is no humour in success and contentedness — Jamal

For good or ill, I can't do that. I get too involved in the story. I can't be jolly about a character I intend to kill off. I tried to write a Gothic once and everyone in it turned nice by Chapter 3, so I had to throw it away and start another project. — Vera Mont

I think it is possible to have fun with characters and situations, even where there is darkness.
Isn't there a need to explore all aspects of humans and their place in whatever worlds they find themselves in? The senses and spectrum of feelings, thoughts and actions. The contrasts.

Why would humour not exist in 'success and contentedness'?
Why would a writer need to feel 'jolly' about a character she meant to kill off?
Why is there a wish to kill? Who or what is being murdered? Deeper exploration of both dark and light?

How can 'optimism' be 'inhumane'?
How can 'hope' be 'humane'?

Here is a wonderful article about Creativity covering many aspects, including the philosophical ambivalence towards Hope. The different takes on the Pandora Myth.

Nietzsche's interpretation of the Pandora myth recalls Arthur Schopenhauer's descriptions of hope as "a folly of the heart". For him, hope is a delusion. In his essay Psychological Remarks (1851), he notes that the emotion "deranges the intellect's appreciation of probability" so that we neglect the likely outcomes of events, even when the odds are stacked against us. "A hopeless misfortune is like a quick death blow, whilst a hope that is always frustrated and constantly revived resembles a kind of slow death by prolonged torture."

[I can't remember if it was here, or somewhere else, that I came across the term 'toxic hope'.
I think it related to people being, or perceived as, over bright and 'jolly' - ? like Harris - irritating others, perhaps in a more depressed or angry state...perhaps I just made that up! And it was 'toxic positivity'? ]

The article is where I found the TED talk linked earlier.
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210105-why-being-creative-is-good-for-you

And scrolling down, there is this:
In these times of cynicism and despair, is 'hopepunk' the perfect antidote? David Robson explores radical optimism, and why it matters.

But what could describe literature that instead focuses on our capacity for good? "The opposite of grimdark is hopepunk...defined as "a literary and artistic movement that celebrates the pursuit of positive aims in the face of adversity".

:up: :up:

It might take the creatives to do this.
— Amity

I think that they play an important role. We are not so easily moved by statistics and theories. We are emotional beings. But this can be manipulated in different directions. Compassion, but also fear and hatred. — Fooloso4

Yes. There are 'creatives' everywhere. Some create deliberate chaos and bring mayhem to the world.
As you say, by manipulating what people see as 'real' and messing with their emotions.
Multi-messaging, sowing seeds of hatred, fear and confusion. The underlying values or aims are not those of compassion or care for all but to enrich themselves financially and gain prestigious power. High wealth and influence - being 'winners' their core concern.

They create division and hierarchies where they are top dog. Dogs of war.
The phrase spoken by Mark Antony in Act 3, Scene 1, line 273 of English playwright William Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war." So it goes.

It was ever thus. Men at war. Men loving war, aggression, taking and raping. And so on.
To take control of the world, the moon and everything. Or so the story goes.

But do we have to follow this narrative? Can't other 'creatives' change the story? Our ways of thinking of reacting? Of doing politics?

Where to begin? Well...at the beginning.
Perhaps with children who are our future. A change in education systems.

Not that I know about current education and its aims, either here, America or elsewhere. I do know that education especially for girls is seen as a threat and not allowed in the less civilised parts of the world.

Here is a man, a 'Sir' even, with ideas. Explaining intelligence and creativity with humour and stories. To re-think our conceptions. To enlarge and enrich human capacity. He has fun with university professors!

Yeah, in 2024 that "1 way to lose" will be the same as 2016: HRC. — 180 Proof

Hey guys. You make great points. Call me stupid but I don't know or have forgotten what HRC means. I'm guessing not Human Rights Commission.

How worthwhile is to revisit past speculations. And now, we have all the 'what if's' to play with.
It only matters if as @Fooloso4 suggests, it leads to:

... a better understanding of the majority and attempt to address their concerns in a meaningful way. — Fooloso4

How likely is that. How it is done is another matter. Perhaps involving a brain transplant or two.

If they say they will work for all of America. Then, there is a need to actively listening to all the people's stories - imagined and real. And not just to win at Election time. To work for real improvement in the lives of the ordinary. Seek out the unheard voices. Local communities. All year round.

Counter the growing anger and hatred by showing what is really going on. By whatever means that people will trust and not immediately go to 'fake' mode. Get real. Work hard and don't detach high above, safe and secure in your White House.

It might take the creatives to do this. By film or documentary. Whatever. Use the serious and humorous to relay the message you want to convey. Don't rely on celebrity endorsements and unhelpful advertisements. Billions spent. A tyrannical trillionaire in pocket. Take me to the moon, Musk.

Show the ridiculous clowns partying. The big red, white and blue balloons fattened, ready to burst or deflate. At whose expense?

I need to go now. Running late...

Yes. A harsh lesson and wakeup call. But will it change anything.

How many fall for the promised land of gold. Saved by God.
In God We Trust.

This movement is not only in America. It's wherever might is right.
The wars continue. People are killed and worse.

A proud Liar holds his prize high. The Criminal set free to fulfil his plans.
Receiving Congratulations, and more, from world leaders.
Shame on them all.

Where is the humanity?

News blackout is a good start. — Vera Mont

Yup. I no longer watch or listen to it. I read an online newspaper with my eyes half-shut or half-open. Not for long.

Walking a little in the sunshine...and getting an outdoor key safe installed.
Better than driving around a loch a second time to hunt for house keys.
Then returning home in the failing light.
To find you hadn't even locked the bloody door!

I did say I was tired and weary, didn't I...
Time to hibernate :yawn:

I'm trying very hard to find a light, humorous, optimistic theme. — Vera Mont

What for? Writing a story for TPF?

We have kittens... — Vera Mont

There ya' go...

*sighs*
So much for my break. I've been dragged from the depths...

:flower: Thank you.

Toni Morrison. This quote. So apt, not only at this time. I have to admit, again, of not reading her works.
I know that she is frequently quoted. A quick TPF search goes back 8yrs.

I agree that this is not a time for silence or fear. However, there can be a need to step back, breathe and remove oneself from the outpourings from all sides. The 'chaos' eventually clearing.

Language, speaking, writing, reading are used not just to heal but to harm. Words don't always come easy or gently but fly quick out of the barrel. Boom! Bang! You're dead. You get up, for more.

How best to respond can take practice. Typing here gives me that.
It is one of the reasons I started this thread. To think and write about how the 3 P's interact.
I can think of a lot more P's but that was for starters.

Making time, having the energy, the will to listen carefully to people, to look around at the environment, to learn from stories, past, present and future. That don't always come easy. For me, at least.

TPF is a special place for this. Observing and asking questions. Writing is what we do. Clarifying our thoughts and feelings. Through contact with others. Not only those who agree with us. Or are considered 'friends' - a band of buddies.

I have sometimes addressed a few as 'friend' - and yes, some are closer than others - I want to clarify that I view most participants, readers and writers as such. Where there is a genuine desire to meet the challenges of the mind and life, how can this not be helpful?

@180 Proof's quote was just what I needed. I looked for its origin. And found it in an article, here:

https://www.themarginalian.org/2016/11/15/toni-morrison-art-despair/

I was reading this when a pop-up appeared. A surprise gift of a poem.

But We Had Music - by Maria Popova.

Right this minute
across time zones and opinions
people are
making plans
making meals
making promises and poems

while

at the center of our galaxy
a black hole with the mass of
four billion suns
screams its open-mouth kiss
of oblivion.

Someday it will swallow
Euclid’s postulates and the Goldberg Variations,
swallow calculus and Leaves of Grass.

I know this.

And still
when the constellation of starlings
flickers across the evening sky,
it is enough

to stand here
for an irrevocable minute
agape with wonder.

It is eternity.


From: https://www.themarginalian.org/2024/04/06/but-we-had-music/

***

When sick - of politics or whatever - writers and poets can sing to us. Music is a universal language.
Story telling is what we do. To counter darkness with light. Through connection. Persevering. Fun :fire:

I hope that we will hear soon of TPF's annual serving - the December Fest of Writing?
@Jamal @fdrake @Baden et al.

Best wishes for future travels. :flower:

Till next time. — Paine

As ever :pray:

Thanks for link. Project 2025 and how it is implemented makes for grim and terrifying reading. How can such plans be thwarted?

This from the Guardian:

Donald Trump’s advisers are evaluating methods to carry out the president-elect’s promised “largest deportation” in US history, the Wall Street Journal reports. 
Currently, the incoming administration is considering issuing a national emergency declaration, which could allow Trump to use Pentagon funds, military facilities for detention and military planes for deportations. The administration is reportedly also assessing ways to encourage immigrants to leave voluntarily, perhaps by waiving a 10-year bar on re-entry.

I note that there are already protests - ' Protect our Futures' - taking place in New York. But who will stand in the way of the police or military tasked with rounding up immigrants or the homeless or whoever the bullies pick on. This is brutal.

Some days, it's a genuine privilege to be old. — Vera Mont

I am tired and weary. I hope that others can withstand all that is coming down the line. I am nearer the end of my life and live in fortunate circumstances.
I am grateful for that but can't say I fought for it. Others before me did.
I will never forget. :flower:

This is a most awful turning point...

Thank you, Vera, for this detailed commentary.
I didn't see the ad you mentioned. I agree it was very stupid, indeed.

I continue to be concerned and will read articles which sound alarmist but make terrifying sense to me. I don't feel up to paraphrasing or commenting in detail.

Basically, it is how the Republican win has empowered incels but there are other articles which tell of the increase in aggressive and scary racist texts.
White supremacists back with a vengeance. Online and offline.

Women being taunted with "Your body, my choice. Forever.
We control your bodies. Guess what, guys win again, okay. Men win again … There will never ever be a female President. It’s over. Glass ceiling? It’s a ceiling made of fucking bricks.”

In an analysis published on Friday, the Institute for Strategic Dialogue (ISD), a thinktank focused on extremism, found “a 4,600% increase in mentions of the terms ‘your body, my choice’ and ‘get back in the kitchen’ on X”.

From: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/09/trump-your-body-my-choice

***

I am not happy with the effects on politics in the UK.
Starmer could have congratulated the Republican win without grovelling.

Starmer said: “Congratulations President-elect Trump on your historic election victory. I look forward to working with you in the years ahead. As the closest of allies, we stand shoulder to shoulder in defence of our shared values of freedom, democracy and enterprise.

“From growth and security to innovation and tech, I know that the UK-US special relationship will continue to prosper on both sides of the Atlantic for years to come.”

It looks like appeasement. How the hell do we have shared values with a...what did @180 Proof say...

corrupt, incompetent, con artist, racist, rapist, misogynist, nativist-xenophobe-isolationist, hyper-protectionist, insurrectionist, autocrat & convicted fraudster

And more could be added to the list.

This does not bode well...
Already we have this:
Boost UK defence spending to win Trump’s support, former navy chief urges Starmer
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/nov/09/uk-defence-spending-gdp-trump-britain-military-budget-gdp

***
Closer to home, I don't want to speculate on how this will affect Scotland.
A place dear to the tyrant and where he has family and business connections. He already created problems. He is bound to continue to meddle in affairs.

The US president mounted a lengthy challenge against plans for an 11-turbine scheme off the Aberdeenshire coast, claiming it would spoil the view from his Balmedie golf course.

President Trump has often criticised wind power in his political speeches. Trump has said windmills cause cancer, kill birds and prevent people from watching television when the wind is not blowing.

Trump's love of spending time playing golf is well known (REUTERS)

He appealed to the UK’s highest court after twice losing fights in Scottish courts, but judges there unanimously dismissed the case.

His wind farm opposition led to him giving evidence at the Scottish Parliament as a witness at a committee inquiry into the Scottish government’s renewable energy targets.

Asked to point to evidence wind farms will destroy tourism, Mr Trump said: “I am the evidence.

“I am an expert in tourism, I am considered a world-class expert in tourism so when you say ‘Where is the evidence?’ – I am the evidence.”
— Independent-

He is stronger now than then and the Scottish government weaker.
Time will tell.

To you too :flower:

Thanks to you and others for sharing.
I've enjoyed listening and learning throughout this conversation.
Time to pack up for a break.
Take care, y'all :sparkle:

As far as I can tell, too many Americans are still not "ready" for a woman presiden — 180 Proof

Yes. I have one last read to share. It supports your view.

I spent hours trying to persuade US voters to choose Harris not Trump. I know why she lost - Oliver Hall

As a phone bank volunteer, I hoped to counter the Republican attacks and half-truths, but people really believed them.

Time and again, voters, very often women themselves, told me that they just didn’t think that “America is ready for a female president”. People said they couldn’t “see her in the chair” and asked if I “really thought a woman could run the country”. One person memorably told me that she couldn’t vote for Harris because “you don’t see women building skyscrapers”. Sometimes, these people would be persuaded, but more often than not it was a red line. Many conversations would start with positive discussions on policy and then end on Harris and her gender. That is an extraordinary and uncomfortable truth.

You should know what I didn’t hear during the hours speaking to US voters. I can only think of one occasion when someone mentioned stricter taxes on billionaires or any similar policies. The atrocities being committed by Israel in Gaza only came up six times in more than 1,000 calls.

After all those conversations, I think the main reason that Harris and Walz lost this campaign is simple: Trump. Ultimately, he was simply too much of a pull again. Despite the gaffes, despite his views on women, despite his distaste for democracy and despite an insurrection, voters just didn’t care.

For reasons that I’m sure will be studied for decades, when he speaks, people listen. When he speaks, people believe him. After all those calls, I can be shocked at this result, but hardly surprised.
— Guardian - Opinion - Kamala Harris

Thank you. I came on here at 3.50am - awake and troubled. I had thought to edit my post. Thinking I should really have responded to you in the appropriate Election thread.

Politics, the result and its consequences are clearly on my mind. However, I think I will avoid reading further in-depth discussion and analysis. Thanks for keeping your response brief and helpful.

Will only say this. I am glad that I don't live in a God-fearing, gun-toting country.
The seeming right to 'righteously' kill those who threaten your views. But who hold up their hands in horror and call abortion 'murder' of a person.

Human rights only considered of value if they are of a certain kind, colour and creed. The greed for gold and the rape of the world. For the few bastards in power.

In their absolutism, pretending with pietous, smug faces to be Godly 'good' while all the time being a force for what is the very opposite.
Fear, Hate and Destructive Divisions.

I'm tired of it all.

Still thinking about this:

6November24

Yesterday more Americans chose rather than rejected tyranny. To wit:

make Apartheid great again
make Antisemitism great again
make Anti-women great again
make Anti-immigrants great again
make Anti-labor great again
make Anti-intellect great again
make Anti-democracy great again
make Above-the-Law great again
make Assholery great again ... — 180 Proof

[emphasis added]

I've just read an article by masculinity researcher, Richard Reeves, which seems to shed more light on the gender issues. And how the Democrats miscalculated.

A question for @180 Proof and any others - how much would you agree that there was too much emphasis and reliance on women votes re abortion?

I think you don’t win votes if you’re not fighting for them. And the Democrats didn’t really fight very hard for the votes of young men. But they could have said:

“There are so many progressive young women who are worried about the mental health of their boyfriend or brother. There are so many progressive women who wanted a party that would support their reproductive rights and do a better job of educating their son.” [...]

Democrats benched themselves from the argument about men

Instead, at the very last gasp, they started to say to men: “Well, if you care about the women in your life, you should vote for us. Or maybe the reason you’re not voting for us is because you’re secretly a little bit sexist?” Trying to either shame or guilt trip or scare men into voting Democrat was spectacularly unsuccessful.

What do the Democrats need to learn from this?

The danger is that they just say all these men became sexist, that they were lured by misogyny. The danger is Democrats believe they just need to double down on attacks on patriarchy and toxic masculinity. That would be disastrous.

Instead, they should show young men that they’ve got an agenda that’s more up their street. Instead of going on and on about cancelling student debt, which is not a popular policy among men, they should talk more about trade schools and manufacturing jobs. I hope that they’ll conclude that they need to win men back by explicitly pitching them, rather than trying to recruit them as allies to the cause of women, which is a political theory that they just tested to destruction.
— Guardian- Young men and the Election

There is more to the article. Worth reading for another perspective.
***

How many billions spent or wasted - so many celebrities and billionaires.
What a party, huh?!
The whole American electioneering farce sickens me.

Being vigilant is not being a vigilante. But it may well come to that. If tyrannical laws are passed, who would become an outlaw. Prepared to go to prison for their beliefs and values? A Robin Hood, righting wrongs? [*]

Is there a philosophy of ethical vigilantism?

***

Ways to go on. One artist's perspective - Brian Cox:

As artists we have to bang the drum, we have to keep going,” he said in an interview with the Guardian. “We mustn’t put up with it. That’s why I admire people like Mark Ruffalo [a longtime advocate for social justice].
“I’m not going to give up on my criticism of Trump. I think it behoves artists to not give up, to keep the flag of truth flying, because it’s been so abused in recent years.”

“I look at the US and think it’s a fucking mess,” Cox said. “It doesn’t know who or where it is. Trump’s vitriol towards Harris during the campaign was unbelievable. [...]

What’s happening in Gaza is a genocide, there’s no question about it. It’s horrific. But it’s not going to get any better under Trump, because he’s a great friend of Netanyahu, so who’s going to be saying ‘stop it’ now, ‘behave yourself’?” He added: “I think the world has never been in a more dangerous place than it is at the moment.”

Cox also spoke about other crises he believed Americans would be facing, including reproductive rights and the climate crisis. “Women are being treated as second-class citizens in America and it has to stop, it’s gone on for far too long,” he said. “Nobody should be discussing what a woman should do with her body, only they should advocate for what happens to their body. How dare we make that assumption? It’s so retrograde.”

He added: “I can’t believe I’m living in the 21st century, because we don’t seem to progress as human beings. We seem to make the same mistake time and time again.
“The world’s in deep shit like never before. Trump’s not going to do anything about the climate crisis because he doesn’t believe it, no matter the evidence.

Cox was also insistent that he would “never play Trump”. He said: “I couldn’t play him for all the tea in China, there’s no virtue in him.” — Guardian - US Elections 2024

[emphasis added]

Why is it that for every step forward we seem to take 100 steps back.
In the blink of a an eye...blinded by gold.
Of a lying, bully boy with his rich and powerful pals. Deal-makers. Life breakers.
The winner takes it all.

***

[*] But even Robin Hood is just a tale, medieval - full of controversies and inequalities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood

Outlaw stories. Fact or fiction. Historical context. Can we find the real Robin Hood?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/robin_01.shtml

I'm wondering why you chose this piece. Is it a favourite or just something related to 'America'?
What it is and isn't. A complex arrangement of states, fine friends finding foes. Curious tastes of buddies and blows. Bodies in a flow of blood, sweat and tears. United in disunity or diversity?

The portrait of Bowie shows his startling asymmetry. A strange yet compelling, creative arrangement.
His music too a hybrid of styles. Moving outside the boundaries. Inventive. A fearless exploration.
I am not a Bowie fan but when I read his story, it intrigues me.

***

"United in diversity" is the motto of the European Union.
It's supposed to be about working for peace and prosperity. How is that working out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motto_of_the_European_Union

I am presently fixing a hole where the rain gets in. — Paine

Ah, I embrace the poetic and practical you. Acting and reacting with more than emotion, important as that is. Lyrical words and ways to make sense of and stop a deluge or torrential flood.
I think of the old saws. Prevention is better than cure. A stitch in time saves nine.

'Presently' - includes an awareness of the past, what is going on or what might be.

I find myself a time traveller. The songs of the past haunting the present. The memories, histories and stories of what some might think of as a 'Golden Age'.
Listening to the poetry of the creatives in all ages.
The never-ending questions, problems and joys of individuals within the cascading pictures.
Free flowing interpretations and misinterpretations. Fixing what you can, when and how you can.
Semper Vigilans.

***
Fixing A Hole (Remastered 2009) · The Beatles
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band



I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in
And stops my mind from wondering
Where it will go

I'm filling the cracks that ran through the door
And kept my mind from wondering
Where it will go

And it really doesn't matter
If I'm wrong, I'm right
Where I belong, I'm right
Where I belong

When it comes to democracy, it does matter if we get it wrong. When freedom turns to abuse of power.

I hear you, friend of mine. — Paine

Thank you, dear friend, I hear you too. And others.
Right now, I'm listening out for and attending to whatever lifts my spirits or gladdens my heart.
I don't know that my own voice - alone - has the power.

I can't ignore the way of politics and the actions and effects of the powerful.
I can't bring myself to listen to the sickening voice and twisted face of divisive hatred and tyranny.

I hear another friend of mine @180 Proof - on the American Election result and the MAGA movement.

6November24

Yesterday more Americans chose rather than rejected tyranny. To wit:

make Apartheid great again
make Antisemitism great again
make Anti-women great again
make Anti-immigrants great again
make Anti-labor great again
make Anti-intellect great again
make Anti-democracy great again
make Above-the-Law great again
make Assholery great again ... — 180 Proof

Please stay strong :flower:

So many words spilled. Observations made and questions asked. I engage briefly.
Trying to keep a balance.

Amongst all of this, we can hear other, different stories. Of an 'unlikely friendship' in a letter:

Sunk by Keir Starmer’s sycophantic words of congratulation to Donald Trump
‘Shoulder to shoulder’ | Time to abandon X | The Great Dictator | Lessons for the Democrats | Civil war averted | On otter pages

Thirteen pages in Wednesday’s print edition on the US election, and then that delightful story on page 17 (Otter’s bond with Shetland man features in documentary, 6 November) restored my faith in humanity.
Rhys Harrison — Guardian - Sycophantic Starmer - Letters US Election 2024

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/05/shetland-man-bond-otter-award-winning-film-billy-and-molly

Time to share our stories? To scream or silence our anxieties and hope, creatively?

Feeling sad and blue. What music to turn to?

An old favourite. From 1974. Lesley Duncan - Everything Changes



***

A newer, slow version of a Labi Siffre fave from 1972 - Watch Me



***
Neil Young knows where the music's playing.
Because I’m still in love with you. I want to see you dance again...



Come a little bit closer
Hear what I have to say
Just like children sleeping
We could dream this night away
But there's a full moon rising
Let's go dancing in the light
We know where the music's playing
Let's go out and feel the night

***

Time for a slow waltz in my heart and mind. Everything changes, love travels on... :sparkle:

Thank you :up:

Here we go again... — javi2541997

Good of you to direct unaware newcomers to the Discord site.

Yes. I noticed TPF was AWOL this morning. I assumed it was the same problem as discussed previously. Being one of those who didn't join Discord, I am unaware of progress or other plans for TPF.

I would hope if and when there is anything substantial to report, then @Jamal will notify TPF members. :sparkle:

This discussion was started by @Fooloso4 to look into how much value Book 10 might add to the whole work.

I think its value is pretty clear. With the final reflection on the Myth of Er, we can see the importance of poetic creativity in questions of philosophy.

As @Fooloso4 said here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15484/poets-and-tyrants-in-the-republic-book-i/p1

The question of persuasion and its means is of central importance. On the one hand, it is behind both the arguments of Thrasymachus and the other sophists as well as those of Socrates and the philosophers, and, on the other, of the poet’s stories of men and gods. The stories of the poets are an inherited means of persuasion manifest as belief. From an early age children are told the poet’s stories.

He attempts to persuade Glaucon and Adeimantus that being just is itself a benefit, both to oneself and to others. To this end, he acts the poet, weaving stories together with arguments.

Thanks @Fooloso4. Take care. Go well :sparkle:

I wonder if it makes much difference to talk of Socrates' daimon or daimonion. Perhaps he has both.
I can't recall where he explicitly talks of either. — Amity

It seems it does make a difference. With explanations and excerpts related to the daemonion:

In some of his myths, Plato, our chief source of information (along with Xenophon) on the daimonion, also mentioned a tutelary daimon (something like a guardian angel) that accompanies human souls (Timaeus 90c–e, Phaedo 107d–108c, Republic 10.617e, 10.620d–e).
However Plato does not associate this daimon with Socrates in particular or directly imply it is the source of Socrates' special sense. While the two words are etymologically related, daimonion conveys a more general sense than that associated with daimones, which are entities. The difference is analogous to the distinction we might in English make between "the spiritual" and a "spirit [...]

there are practical reasons for us today to study Socrates' daimonion. As each one may readily observe, in the course of any day we frequently experience inner 'voices' of doubt, caution and hesitation...

This presents us with a task of discernment — often difficult: should we act as originally planned, or heed the voice of warning. And on what basis do we decide? [...]

...listing excerpts from ancient philosophical literature on the subject. These are supplied, grouped by authors, oldest to most recent. To further aid personal study, a bibliography of main ancient and modern sources is follows. — Socrates and the Daimonion

All kinds of behaviour are shunned in any society. I am not unduly concerned re Socrates. Simply noting his behaviour as told. And wondering. I think sometimes he needed to be alone with his thoughts. Perhaps, this was a way of preparing himself...

How helpful or harmful are the 'voices' we hear in our heads? Are they our own reflections or something inserted by 'God' or any other being - a daimon? What do they tell us to do? Can we control them. Do we think of them as a guide we rely on? Or are they a result of brain/body chemistry? Dreams. Daydreams. Imagination. Whatever. They are all mental.

The problems start with delusions...and that's a different story...

The End of Book 10.
This is a story. But not just any old story.

And so, Glaucon, his story was saved and not lost; and it would save us, too, if we were persuaded by it, since we would safely cross the river Lethe with our souls undefiled. But if we are persuaded by me, we will believe that the soul is immortal and able to endure every evil and also every good, and always hold to the upward path, practicing justice with wisdom every way we can, so that we will be friends to ourselves and to the gods, both while we remain here on Earth and when we receive the rewards of justice, and go around like victors in the games collecting prizes; and so both in this life and on the thousand-year journey we have described, we will fare well. — The Republic - 621c

Who or what can persuade us?
Arguments, stories or arguments within stories...stories within arguments.
To fare well.

There are the accounts of Socrates' daimon giving him warnings. In Phaedo, the voice said he should set poetry to music. Plato shows him as withdrawn from others before going to the party in Symposium. Plato keeps pointing to these personal experiences but does not turn them into a single story. They seem to vary as much as the different myths that are used throughout his works. — Paine

I wonder if it makes much difference to talk of Socrates' daimon or daimonion. Perhaps he has both.
I can't recall where he explicitly talks of either. I do remember previous discussions.
From @Fooloso4's Phaedo thread - https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10914/platos-phaedo/p1

Socrates is doing something he has never done before, writing. He explains it this way:

often in my past life the same dream had visited me, now in one guise, now in another, but always saying the same thing: "Socrates,'' it said, "make music and practise it." Now in earlier times I used to assume that the dream was urging and telling me to do exactly what I was doing: as people shout encouragement to runners, so the dream was telling me to do the very thing that I was doing, to make music, since philosophy is the greatest music. (61a)

He continues:

I reflected that a poet should, if he were really going to be a poet, make stories rather than arguments, and being no teller of tales myself, I therefore used some I had ready to hand …(61b)

Several things need to be noted. First, he calls philosophy the greatest music. Second, he claims that he is not a storyteller. But here he tells a story about a dream from his past life. That it is just a story will become clear.

Unlike Socrates, Plato did write and he is a very capable storyteller, capable of the greatest music. His dialogues are akin to the work of the poets’ plays. What we will hear are not simply arguments but stories. The question arises as to whether this is a comedy or tragedy. Phaedo says that he was not overcome by pity and that Socrates seemed happy (58e) Phaedo reports feeling an unusual blend of pleasure and pain. (59a). As we shall see, opposites will play an important part in Socrates’ stories. — Fooloso4

[emphasis added]

Plato shows him as withdrawn from others before going to the party in Symposium. — Paine

Yes. I remember reading this and wondering about his mental health. What with his daimonion and now this odd behaviour; his absence being described as a 'fit'.

I turned round, but Socrates was nowhere to be seen; and I had to explain that he had been with me a moment before, and that I came by his invitation to the supper.

You were quite right in coming, said Agathon; but where is he himself?

He was behind me just now, as I entered, he said, and I cannot think what has become of him.
Go and look for him, boy, said Agathon, and bring him in; and do you, Aristodemus, meanwhile take the place by Eryximachus.

The servant then assisted him to wash, and he lay down, and presently another servant came in and reported that our friend Socrates had retired into the portico of the neighbouring house. 'There he is fixed,' said he, 'and when I call to him he will not stir.'

How strange, said Agathon; then you must call him again, and keep calling him.

Let him alone, said my informant; he has a way of stopping anywhere and losing himself without any reason. I believe that he will soon appear; do not therefore disturb him.
Well, if you think so, I will leave him, said Agathon. And then, turning to the servants, he added, 'Let us have supper without waiting for him. Serve up whatever you please, for there is no one to give you orders; hitherto I have never left you to yourselves. But on this occasion imagine that you are our hosts, and that I and the company are your guests; treat us well, and then we shall commend you.'

After this, supper was served, but still no Socrates; and during the meal Agathon several times expressed a wish to send for him, but Aristodemus objected; and at last when the feast was about half over—for the fit, as usual, was not of long duration—Socrates entered. Agathon, who was reclining alone at the end of the table, begged that he would take the place next to him; that 'I may touch you,' he said, 'and have the benefit of that wise thought which came into your mind in the portico, and is now in your possession; for I am certain that you would not have come away until you had found what you sought.' — Gutenberg - Plato's Symposium

[emphasis added]

Plato keeps pointing to these personal experiences but does not turn them into a single story. They seem to vary as much as the different myths that are used throughout his works. — Paine

Yes. The variations seem to suit the different contexts, audience and subject matter. The Symposium is one of my favourites. Party Perspectives on Love.