Comments

  • European or Global Crisis?
    The shift has already taken place, whatever the next election in Germany, Sweden or Canada throws up on top. Liberal parties have been pulled farther and farther rightward, leaving labour either out of touch or taking up what used to the center. The only thing that will reverse this trend is a wide enough popular dissatisfaction.Vera Mont

    Yes but now the slow boiled frog is damned near cooked. The trend is war and defence.
    Already, big smiles and profits for defence companies and the arm manufacturing industry.
    Popular dissatisfaction be damned.

    There is hope in that. The Trump regime is so drastic and crude in its actions, protests have already begun. People are finally noticing that he and his gang mean to carry out all the threats they made over the last several years. This extreme example might - just barely might - wake up other nations to the peril they're courting. His childishly spiteful trade and defence policies might - just possibly - spur greater co-operation among the countries where democracy is still alive. The extreme insanity of Trumpism just maybe possibly might perhaps trigger a global reaction against all similar agendas before it's too late.Vera Mont

    There is always hope. On both sides of the equation. Some call it prayer. In God We Trust.
    There are always possibilities, until the clamp down of prison, torture and death for those who protest.
    Being criminalised for protest happens even in a so-called democracy like the UK.

    What is happening is the fight for resources. Trump is bargaining for such in his Peace Deal with Russia. Ukraine side-lined. Trump longs not for Peace but for the Nobel Prize. Him and his pal, Musk.
    They are bully boys extracting payment from their victims. With a bit of world domination on the side. Unfortunately, I doubt there will be a happy ending.

    It should never have got this far. Hate-filled criminals charging about the world.
    As if it were a game. The winners take it all...

    There is already a global reaction - but how effective is it? There is nobody in charge...
  • European or Global Crisis?
    The crisis is real and global.Vera Mont

    Yes. Too much to deal with?

    Under perceived threats from migrants, economic recessions, pandemic measures, loss of religious privilege, automation and international terrorism, people are open to offers of simple solutions.

    The far right always has simple solutions: blame a powerless minority and punish it. The left always has a more complicated plan it can't explain in terms that fit on a tractor-hat. More importantly, the left never promises its supporters special privileges.
    Vera Mont

    I bolded the list of 'perceived threats'. We could address them one by one. And see where it takes us. Migrants:

    'Get Brexit Done' - the simple electioneering slogan > overwhelming majority for Johnson's Tory party.
    'Reform UK' - the name of Farage's party/company sounds like a positive change.

    The issue of immigrants. People ignorant of their value e.g. in the NHS, tourism, agriculture, etc..
    Not to mention they fill the gap in decreasing populations in different European countries.

    Immigrants in Europe are an essential force that has a huge economic influence. Immigrants make significant contributions to labour markets, help innovations, and fill critical shortages of skills. The analysis of demographic trends shows the need for immigrants to keep European economies growing as its aging population diminishes. Diverse skills, unique perspectives, as well as strong work ethos that immigrant employees embody boosts general productivity in various sectors.EIIR - The Importance of Immigrants in Boosting European Community

    But it seems like another option is preferred. We must have more babies!
    Farage has it sorted. Have you ever heard such nonsense?

    “Of course family matters enormously, of course we need higher birth rates,” Farage told the event, adding that the UK and wider west had “kind of forgotten that what underpins everything is our Judeo-Christian culture, and that’s where we need to start”.

    Restoring a “sense of optimism” that was last afoot in the 1980s and 1990s was essential to reversing decreasing fertility rates in the UK, Farage said.

    Calling for some “very, very big cultural changes” to persuade Britons to have children, he went on: “We’ve got to start telling young kids that hard work is good, that success is good, that there are no shortcuts in life, that making money is good.”

    [...]

    The issue of declining birth rates in the west has been highlighted by Elon Musk and several other Maga-related figures.
    Financial Times - Farage calls for more UK births

    Oh yes, and their solution is to 'own' women and take away their rights. Make babies. Now!

    Calling this “the law of the jungle,” the Daily Wire host then suggested that many women only know how to act civilly under the threat of physical violence, encouraging his audience to steer away from those women when seeking relationships.[...]

    Though Klavan recognized that this was “not right” and “not good,” he also gave credit to far-right misogynist social media personality Andrew Tate for having “some kind of panache with young people because he says this out loud, and nobody ever says it out loud.”

    Besides being a notorious “manosphere” influencer, Tate has been charged in Romania with rape, human trafficking and forming a criminal gang to sexually exploit women. He’s also facing civil and criminal cases in the United Kingdom related to sexual assault and harassment.

    “That doesn't create a responsibility in you to beat your wife,” Klavan concluded. “It creates responsibility in you to find a woman who will respect you so you can treat her as she deserves to be treated.”
    The Independent

    To return to shared values...

    There are still European countries who retain a misogynistic attitude. A lot of homicide is femicide.
    So, there is no such thing as a common value system. Just as you can't generalise about American values.

    Progress made in all spheres to right wrongs, to value human rights...well, that is being systematically destroyed. If that's not a crisis, I don't know what is.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    I understand the scepticism due to past negative experiences, yet that cannot blur our hopes for the future!javi2541997

    The question I asked was 'real', about the future and pragmatic hopes. Not based on wishful fantasy.
    Identifying real solutions to real problems. Not just for electioneering purposes but for long-term.

    "Human values" are always more linked with this continent than anywhere else. We are not perfect, I know. But the amount of philosophers, artists, jurists, teachers, and all experts on humanities is priceless and beyond description. It seems to me that human values have not been well framed in some nations for a lot of different reasons.javi2541997

    Human values have been framed in many nations.
    Liberty, Equality and Freedom - in the American Constitution.

    It is in the regulation of these values, that we find tension and conflict.

    As the preamble to the Constitution acknowledges, we established government precisely in order to “spread the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.” Government is not inimical to liberty; it is necessary for it.

    John Locke himself observed that liberty without law is meaningless, and a free market cannot exist without government regulation. Our children will not enjoy the blessings of liberty if we destroy the environment, for example.

    Liberty is meaningful only if we also exercise responsibility, both personal and collective. The question is how to regulate, not whether to regulate. If our goal is to ensure that each person can enjoy the blessings of liberty, then our philosophy must explain the democratic values of humanity, dignity, equality, community, responsibility and the common good. Nor are progressives averse to liberty; indeed, we care about it so much that we want the legal system to make it available to everyone, not just the privileged few.
    Democratic Values and the American Constitution Society

    A normal citizens' movement. It does not have to be technical. I am referring to the participation and the pursuit of European people for taking care of our continent.javi2541997

    What is a 'normal citizens' movement'?
    How can a whole continent be 'taken care of' ?
    What does that even mean?
    Europe is diverse. Multiple viewpoints. That is its strength and also its weakness.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    After the US neocon establishment got dealt a heavy blow, the equally abject European establishment is next in line. This is a good thing - the excising of a tumor that has been allowed to fester for much too long.

    There is no crisis.
    Tzeentch

    There is a crisis, as described in the OP.
    Your view that the European/Global crisis is a 'good thing' is noted.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    Brexit was one of the most terrible mistakes in recent EU history. The more divided, the better to them.javi2541997

    Exactly. And it was all part of a well-laid plan.

    It is time to build something where we could be together and united. Even closer than in the European Union. I am thinking of a European organisation where our differences are put aside and we work for a common goal: European values. It will be something where doesn't matter if you are from Spain like me, UK like you Amity or Finland like ssu. It is not necessarily political. Like a citizens' movement.javi2541997

    I think that is easier said than done. There will always be differences. If it hasn't worked in the EU, then where and how would it work?

    It is not so much about 'European values' - whatever they might be. But human values.
    But that is not going to happen anytime soon.

    It takes education and yeah, look who is in charge of that...

    A citizens' movement not political but philosophical? Hah.
    Not a chance in hell. One man's freedom an' all that.
  • European or Global Crisis?
    It's an effort to bring the kind of political polarization to Europe that is happening in the US.ssu

    Yes. But it has been happening for years. A slow boil. Here, in the UK, we have Nigel Farage and the party he founded or purchased - 'Reform UK'. Leading to Brexit. It is gaining in strength. Full of populist rhetoric, it appeals to the young and disillusioned. Alienation including misogyny and hate. But we need to look further into the inequalities - house prices, job security.

    The issues of insecurity are driving some from democracy to the 'certainties' of strong-man dictatorship.
    Extreme parties are gathering force. Can we re-engage by tackling issues at the root?
    For parties to listen to and tackle serious problems at the level of the citizen.

    They all claim to be the voice of the people. What people?

    Do we need this crisis to get real? Or is it now about going to war?
    How civilised are we? Will the people even have a say in the matter?
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    And many, including my own president, made the correct conclusion of JD's scolding: this was far more for the American audience (people like you) than it was to engage Europeansssu

    I disagree. It has very much engaged the Europeans. It is viewed as a Crisis, a major turning point.

    With this in mind, I have started a new thread:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15786/european-or-global-crisis
  • fdrake stepping down as a mod this weekend
    There ought to be a special section for retired staff to complain about how things have gone downhill, and there are no proper discussions any more, and the mods don't seem to care, etc.unenlightened

    There is. It's called 'Feedback'. I doubt any mods, present, past or future would use it to complain.
    There would seem to be an element of loyalty and need for privacy in airing 'what is really going on'.

    Some will share in PMs. Or in other places. Or not at all.

    The job is time-consuming and messy. It takes a certain kind of person to do it well.
    Sometimes, we get to see timely interventions. Other times, not so much. Work is behind the scenes, not recognised and not given enough appreciation.

    As you know, the messiness comes in degrees and cycles.
    Lately, there seems to have been an increase in reporting to mods.

    There comes a point when some say, "Enough is enough!".
    It must take its toll on those who have been dedicated to the site for 10yrs...
    I couldn't do it for 5 minutes.

    Time and health are precious. Best wishes to all who make the choice to move on.
    :heart: :flower: :pray:

    For those mods that stay. Thank you :100: :clap:
  • fdrake stepping down as a mod this weekend


    Thanks for quick reply and clarification. Appreciated, as always.
    Whatever you do with your new time, enjoy the day. Take care. Be well. :sparkle: :flower:
  • fdrake stepping down as a mod this weekend
    See title. Please don't me for mod reasons after Friday, kthx.fdrake

    And your status as 'Admin'? Are you moving on from that as well?

    What on earth is going on?

    Baden seems to have given up the ghost, too?

    Is it a 10yr anniversary re-think?

    Who will be next?

    Mass exit?

    Well, I suppose you're all entitled to a rest after all the years of wonderful service. :clap: :clap: :clap:

    Thank you @fdrake :100: :flower:
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    I've loved, I've laughed, and cried
    I've had my fill, my share of losing
    And now, as tears subside
    I find it all so amusing

  • Deep Songs
    A follow-up to @unenlightened's music choice. I've No More F****s To Give:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/967306

    The simple uke and its lightness of being. From a Concert for George Harrison.



    For the first half of “Something,” McCartney accompanies himself on a Gibson uke that George had given him, playing the song almost as a light shuffle until Marc Mann comes in mimicking Harrison’s iconic electric guitar solo, before they’re joined by the full band and orchestra; it’s a stunning version.

    Then, at the very end of the concert, for the encore, Joe Brown, who had earlier played guitar and mandolin as he guided the band through “Here Comes the Sun” and “That’s the Way It Goes,” came out with a little Martin soprano uke and went into a beautiful but heart breaking version of the 1920s standard “I’ll See You in My Dreams,” as thousands of pieces of large orange, yellow, and green confetti floated gracefully from the rafters of the Albert Hall like falling autumn leaves. There probably wasn’t a dry eye in the house after that one. It was the perfect ending to a magnificent tribute to George Harrison.



    Be well. Take care. :sparkle: :flower:
  • What are you listening to right now?
    Another day, another sentiment; a happy song, for all the happy people.unenlightened

    Not sure about the happy aspect but, yeah, the uke can bring a gentle simplicity to life. A clear tone and voice of sense and absurdity. Humour in the midst of life frustrations. An English gentleman swearing. What's not to like?! Great fun find :cool:

    Written and performed by Thomas Benjamin Wild Esq. Performed at Boyds of Bedford - November 2nd - 2018. Featured on the album Awkward Encounters While Walking My Dog (released 2018).

    I've tried, tried, tried and I've tried even more
    I've cried, cried, cried and I can't recall what for
    I've pressed, I've pushed, I've yelled, I've begged
    In hope of some success
    But the inevitable fact is that it never will impress

    I've no more fucks to give
    My fucks have runneth dry
    I've tried to go fuck shopping
    But there's no fucks left to buy
    I've no more fucks to give
    Though more fucks I've tried to get
    I'm over my fuck budget and I'm now in fucking debt!

    I strive, strive, strive to get everything done
    I've played by all the rules but I've very rarely won
    I've smiled, I've charmed, I've wooed I've laughed
    Alas to no avail
    I've run round like a moron to unequivocally fail!

    I've no more fucks to give
    My fuck fuse has just blown
    I've been hunting for my fucks all day
    But they've upped and fucked off home
    I've no more fucks to give
    My fuck rations are depleted
    I've rallied my fuck army but it's been fucking defeated!

    The effort has just not been worth the time or the expense
    I've exhausted all my energy for minimal recompense
    The distinct lack of acknowledgement
    Has now begun to gall
    And I've come to realize that I don't give a fuck at all!

    I've no more fucks to give
    My fucks have flown away
    My fucks are now so fucked off
    They've refused to fucking stay!
    I've no more fucks to give
    My fucks have gone insane
    They've come back round and passed me while they're fucking off again!

    I've no more fucks to give
    My fucks have all dissolved
    I've planned many projects
    But my fucks won't be involved!
    I've no more fucks to give
    My fucks have all been spent
    They've fucked off from the building
    And I don't know where they went!

    I've no more fucks to give
    I've no more fucks to give
    I've no more fucks
    I've no more fucks
    I've no more fucks to give!

    For non-commercial use only.
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    So, what is the point of 'Process Philosophy'?

    What are its ethical implications? Or any other kind, for that matter?
    — Amity

    I can't say with any authority...
    Gnomon

    Hello. I wrote that on page 1. At the end of my longer response to @Count Timothy von Icarus's substantive post, here:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/963537

    I then posted an informative video concerning:
    Insights from Nicolas Rescher's Philosophy: Process Metaphysics (06:43)Amity
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/963557

    I disagreed with @Darkneos's opinion that it was 'dehumanising'.

    People are not being labelled as 'just processes'. It seems to be a way to understand humans and their place in the world. As individuals and part of many processes, relationships and interactions, including the creative. Changing and not static.
    Just as in:
    Essentially it means that all is flux, nothing is static
    — punos
    Amity

    As far as I recall, @Darkneos did not reply to @Count Timothy von Icarus.

    And now the thread is on p5.
    So be it. Another process along the way.

    I have nothing further to contribute, here.
    My attention is now on writing something for the Philosophy Writing Challenge - June 2025.
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15749/philosophy-writing-challenge-june-2025-announcement/p1

    Perhaps will see some of you there? In the meantime, best wishes :sparkle:
  • What are your plans for the 10th anniversary of TPF?
    I really like your attitude towards life, Amity. Always seeing the positive part!javi2541997

    Thanks, it ain't always easy, as you know.
    Why be a misery guts? Yer a lang time deid!

    ¡A la vida! :cool:
  • What are your plans for the 10th anniversary of TPF?
    This year is special for TPF members: the site turns 10 years old.javi2541997

    Well, I did not know that.

    I think it would be worth celebrating.javi2541997

    Yes, indeed.

    What do you up to the 10th anniversary of TPF?javi2541997

    Erm...I celebrate each and every day. With a big YAY! to @Jamal, team and members.

    Although the anniversary is in October, you know that preparation for major things takes time. :cool:javi2541997

    What date in October? I'll put it in my diary.

    I am here if help is needed.javi2541997

    Excellent. @Jamal are you listening? It's your party! :party:
  • TPF Philosophy Competition/Activity 2025 ?
    Thanks to everyone who supported this new TPF challenge. Especially @Moliere who has now posted the Welcome and Guidelines. As promised on Feb 1st :up: :cool:

    Any further questions or comments can go here:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15749/philosophy-writing-challenge-june-2025-announcement

    Enjoy! :flower:
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    So far, I don't see it as 'dehumanising'. People are not being labelled as 'just processes'. It seems to be a way to understand humans and their place in the world. As individuals and part of many processes, relationships and interactions, including the creative. Changing and not static.
    — Amity

    Except from what I gather they are, I posted something about teleonomic matter which seems to say the same. We care about individuals not processes.
    Darkneos

    Well, it seems we 'gather' things differently.
    We can care about both individuals and processes. It's not an either/or scenario.

    I've never heard of 'teleonomic matter', read about it and your conversation:
    https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/121491/does-teleonomic-matter-imply-subjectivity-without-identity

    ***

    Your responses and questions flow from one idea to another. I think that is one of the many ways we can process our thoughts/feelings and confusion. There is a chain of interaction between individual brains/minds. This is part of a philosophical process. Just as writing can be a process of clarifying.

    Process: https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/process.html

    What do we hope to achieve by following a process. Improved understanding?
    For what purpose? That depends on goals and aims. It's why I asked you:

    First question: Why is it so important to you? Second, why did you give up so easily? Research is fun!
    — Amity

    I dunno, why is anything important?
    Darkneos

    So, here is where the process can go off on another tangent, away from a response which would reveal something specific. What would it matter if replies to your question didn't satisfy you? Is it that you just want to talk? See what others think? What motivated this question, other than other questions...
    Is it 'turtles all the way down'?

    ***

    Either way, it seems that some can never get enough of trying to find the 'true' answer.
    And will argue until blue in the face, that they are right and others are wrong.
    Some like it hot.

    But sometimes it's good just to chill out. Get out of your head and any mental tensions.
    There are other ways of getting tied up in knots. Following a process to a satisfying end product.
    Chains of individual stitches, creating a whole.

    In a world that often feels hurried and chaotic, finding solace in simple, rhythmic activities can be a gateway to peace and mental well-being. Knitting, a timeless craft cherished across generations, emerges not just as a creative hobby but as a surprising ally in the quest for mindfulness and relaxation. From the gentle click of needles to the tactile pleasure of yarn, knitting is more than just a means to create; it’s a meditative journey that offers a unique blend of focus, repetition, and creativity.Therapeutic effects of knitting - a guide to mindfulness and relaxation

    Garter Stitch Scarf Pattern – Simple For Beginners
    https://www.handylittleme.com/easy-knit-scarf-pattern/

    You can multi-task and listen to music at the same time. Or watch a video. You can even think about teleonomic matter...
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    Insights from Nicolas Rescher's Philosophy: Process Metaphysics (06:43)


    In this enlightening video, we unwrap the philosophical gift of process metaphysics, a perspective that sees the foundation of reality not as a collection of static entities, but as a dynamic collage of processes and happenings. We delve into the essence of change and contemplate the notion that change is not merely an occurrence within the universe but the very fabric of the universe itself. [...]

    As we navigate the moral whirlwind of advancements in genetic engineering, process metaphysics offers a framework to consider the implications of our actions as processes with trajectories that shape humanity's course. We also examine how culture, through literature and storytelling, channels the spirit of process metaphysics, with narratives that reflect transformation and moral awakening.

    In our current discourse on climate change and social justice, process metaphysics challenges us to consider the spectrum of possibilities that unfold over time, prompting critical thinking about the patterns of development we weave into our collective future.

    This video is not just a philosophical exploration; it is an invitation to reflect on how seeing the world as a series of processes can change your perspective. It encourages you to ponder your contributions to these processes and to consider what verse you will add to the grand symphony of life.
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    ↪Amity's citation is a good effort, but it makes the definition appear to be in terms of Whiteheadian terminology, but then massively expands it with applications to other, earlier areas of thought.Count Timothy von Icarus

    Thank you. Not bad for an initial foray, huh? :smile:
    I've never stepped into this river before, so I thank @Darkneos for starting the thread.

    There is "process theology," "process metaphysics," etc. The term is most used to apply to metaphysics. Nicholas Rescher's introductory book is the best text I've found introducing it because it explains the benefits and aims of the process view without doing injustice to contrary views, making clear arguments, and most importantly, not using a ton of foreign terminology. Rescher also takes a broad view, so he looks back to process views in Aristotle, Neoplatonism (e.g. exitus and redditus), Hegel, etc. instead of just 20th+ century continental philosophy and its main precursors.Count Timothy von Icarus

    Good to know. I had continued my quick, superficial search and posted part of a paper which mentioned Rescher: The four characteristics that Rescher views as basic tendencies of process thinkers. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/963482

    ***

    The lable is very diffuse and is applied in different ways by different peopleCount Timothy von Icarus

    Yes, well. No single, short and sweet answer to the thread title:
    'What exactly is Process Philosophy?' Didn't expect there would be!

    Nevertheless, it raises interesting questions, like:

    ...if everything is changing, even the meanings of our words and change itself, how shall we ever say anything true about anything? How does this affect our intuition that certain things won't change (e.g. Napoleon will never become the first president of the USA)?

    One can posit "stabilities" in change, but this does not good if such stabilities are themselves subject to unrestricted flux, as well as what it even means to be stable or enduring.
    Count Timothy von Icarus

    ***

    So, what is the point of 'Process Philosophy'?

    The second part of @Darkneos's query:

    What are its ethical implications? Or any other kind, for that matter?
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    How the mind loves to classify, and no mind more so than the philosopher's! And if something, or someone does not fit neatly into the compartments one has, then a new compartment must be created, named, and defined.unenlightened

    I know, I know. It's crazy!

    Love the Gilbert and Sullivan quote. Most apt.
    Looked for some others. To lighten the day...

    “Gilbert's response to being told they (the words 'ruddy' and 'bloody') meant the same thing was: "Not at all, for that would mean that if I said that I admired your ruddy countenance, which I do, I would be saying that I liked your bloody cheek, which I don't.”
    ― W.S. Gilbert

    “It's love that makes the world go round.”
    ― W.S. Gilbert

    Now that's all settled, we can get on with today's play, or not...

    Now I can relax! I still know everything!unenlightened

    Yup, indeedy, you do :nerd:
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    OK. Re my questions as to why it is important to you, I should have looked at this first.


    And the final question and response:

    1
    Uhhh…what does that mean exactly? I know that things change but what exactly does that mean and what does that mean for what I’m saying about people and society? –
    BoltStorm

    Your question, "I'm wondering I guess how would such a worldview function if it stopped seeing living things as "things". ... From an understanding of semiosis, you would not see people as discrete, concretely bounded 'things'. You would see each person as an amazing manifestation of what their genetic, epigenetic, and cultural influences autopoietically combined to form what you recognize as their form and identity. ... Think of a dust devil, and how just the right combination of circumstances came together to create a fleeting form. This is probably not the best analogy but please consider. –
    Sarah C Tyrrell
    [emphasis added]

    I think that response sounds about right, from the very little I've gleaned so far.
    What is it that you are saying about people and society? This?:

    At a glance it seems to think that what individuals are is a collection of processes, though to me that would appear to have serious ethical implications since it seems kinda dehumanizing to just label people as just processes. Would that change our view of "people" and would it be for the better? I'm wondering I guess how would such a worldview function if it stopped seeing living things as "things".

    Sorry for the confusion but I guess it just highlights my lack of comprehension of the subject. I've met maybe two people who subscribe to it and seem to live regular lives, though when I asked them to explain they couldn't, which gave me doubts about it.

    I just seems like it would be a bad philosophy if one is concerned with well being and things like that, thoughts?

    So far, I don't see it as 'dehumanising'. People are not being labelled as 'just processes'. It seems to be a way to understand humans and their place in the world. As individuals and part of many processes, relationships and interactions, including the creative. Changing and not static.
    Just as in:
    Essentially it means that all is flux, nothing is staticpunos
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    I figured I'd try to ask it on here to see if anyone knows what it is and what it means, because I just get more lost on it.Darkneos

    I am not one of those who knows what 'process philosophy' is, or means. Getting lost is part of finding out. From chaos comes clarity. Sometimes!
    First question: Why is it so important to you? Second, why did you give up so easily? Research is fun!
    I don't suppose there is a simple answer to your question of 'exactly'...there never is...

    There is a strong tendency to overlook process and to think we simply live in world full of separate things. We use nouns, which indicate some kind of stable entities — what in the philosophical tradition have been called “substances.” It’s quite normal to think of the world as a thing, filled with other things — rivers, mountains, lions, mosquitos, people, all sort of things. It’s also quite normal to think of these individual things as distinct from other things, which they are not. The fish is not the river. It is in the river. The river is not the river valley. It flows through the valley. The valley is not the region. But it is a part of a region. Objects are parts of bigger objects still. Wholes are parts of other wholes. [...]

    We cannot understand the things mentioned without understanding the processes in which they are involved. Process philosophers tend to emphasize these processes that interlink these various things, and they emphasize that the things themselves have fuzzy boundaries and are also characterized by their processes.

    The focus on processes is rarer than the focus on stable things. But especially in light of our environmental concerns today, and the fundamental importance of understanding the intersection of biological and human processes in order to address those concerns, a focus on processes is vital. [...]

    ...the first four characteristics that Rescher views as basic tendencies of process thinkers. In Rescher’s words:

    1. Time and change are among the principle categories of metaphysical understanding.
    2. Process is a principle category of ontological description.
    3. Processes are more fundamental, or at any rate, not less fundamental than things for the purposes of ontological theory.
    4. Several, if not all, of the major elements of the ontological repertoire (God, nature as a whole, persons, material substances) are best understood in process terms.
    5. Contingency, emergence, novelty, and creativity are among the fundamental categories of metaphysical understanding. (5-6)
    The Basics of Process Philosophy - Reason and Meaning

    Interesting to read the 16 thoughts on the article.
    Also that 'a future post will focus on Heraclitus, Laozi, and the Buddha as some of the original process thinkers.'

    ***
    the answers I get make even less sense than the wikipedia entriesDarkneos

    If we take only one example, from many, why doesn't this make sense to you? :

    Ecology
    With its perspective that everything is interconnected, that all life has value, and that non-human entities are also experiencing subjects, process philosophy has played an important role in discourse on ecology and sustainability.
    Wiki - Process philosophy
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    Process Philosophy:
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/process-philosophy
    A bit too hefty. Then there is:

    ***

    Process philosophy is characterized by an attempt to reconcile the diverse intuitions found in human experience (such as religious, scientific, and aesthetic) into a coherent holistic scheme.

    Process philosophy seeks a return to a neo-classical realism that avoids subjectivism. This reconciliation of the intuitions of objectivity and subjectivity, with a concern for scientific findings, produces the explicitly metaphysical speculation that the world, at its most fundamental level, is made up of momentary events of experience rather than enduring material substances.

    Process philosophy speculates that these momentary events, called “actual occasions” or “actual entities,” are essentially self-determining, experiential, and internally related to each other.

    Actual occasions correspond to electrons and sub-atomic particles, but also to human persons. The human person is a society of billions of these occasions (that is, the body), which is organized and coordinated by a single dominant occasion (that is, the mind). Thus, process philosophy avoids a strict mind-body dualism.

    [...]

    1. What Counts as Process Philosophy
    a. The Perennial Process Tradition
    Process philosophy argues that the language of development and change are more appropriate descriptors of reality than the language of static being. This tradition has roots in the West in the pre-Socratic Heraclitus, who likened the structure of reality to the element of fire, as change is reality and stability is illusion. Heraclitus is famous for the aphorism that one can never step in the same river twice.

    In Eastern traditions, many Taoist and Buddhist doctrines can be classified as “process.” For example, the Taoist admonition that one should be spontaneously receptive to the never ending flux of yin and yang emphasizes a process worldview, as do the Buddhist notions of pratyitya-samutpada (the inter-dependent origination of events) and anatma (the denial of a substantial or enduring self).

    More recently on the continent, one finds process philosophers in Hegel, who saw the history of the world as processive and dialectic unfolding of Absolute Spirit and in Gottfried Leibniz, Henri Bergson, Nikolai Berdyaev, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. Even David Hume (insofar as he rejected the idea of a substantial self in favor of a series of unconnected perceptual “bundles”) can be considered a process philosopher....
    IEP - Process Philosophy

    Just for starters.
  • The News Discussion
    Basically, it's either to live in this capitalism or live outside the grid. What helps is to use political power to pressure these tech companies, but since the US voted for a lunatic that will just build a techno-feudal empire, that won't happen anytime soon.

    To choose anything within this system might be seen as morally wrong, and if we are all dependent on this system, then we have to live in this system while trying to change it at the same time .
    Christoffer

    Yes. Quite so. Trying to find me some serenity in a world gone mad! Thank you. :sparkle:

    Grant me the serenity
    to accept the things I cannot change;
    courage to change the things I can;
    and wisdom to know the difference.
  • AXIARCHISM as 21st century TAOISM


    We call all things “things,” but not all things are the same or require the same type of treatment.

    The illegitimate step lies in assuming that there must be a single standard applied at all times, for all types of situations, regarding every type of subject matter.

    Why assume that there is any unity of this kind applying to the world, that all existence must form one single system with a single set of laws and rules applying to all of it? That too is part of the circular assumption of the sole universal authority of Reason—an assumption that, I would argue, ironically has deep roots precisely in the idea of God.

    Exactly this. Assumptions galore. And circularity. As is the Way of Nature. No morals included.
    Apart from those of human beings. Who argue over them...intelligently, or otherwise.

    ***
    I agree with this:

    Ziporyn argues that Daoism believes in no ultimate purpose, intention, principle, morality.Joshs

    However, some translations of the TTC appear to suggest that there is a goal, with aims. An example:

    Nature is ultimate, the principle of initiating is ultimate, and the principle of perfecting is ultimate. And the intelligent person is also ultimate. Four kinds of ultimate, then, exist, and the intelligent man is one of them.
    Man devotes himself to satisfying his desires, fulfilling his purposes, realizing his ideals, or achieving his goals. But goals are derived from aims. And all aiming is Nature's aiming, and is Nature's way of being itself.
    TTC trans. by Archie J. Bahm
  • AXIARCHISM as 21st century TAOISM
    From the article's Conclusion:

    Natural axiarchism offers a way to avoid human-centred morality. The axiarchic creative principle seems nothing like human beings, and does not even care about their lives and values.

    And from the cosmic perspective, everything is the best
    . From our limited perspective, however, things can be good or evil. Specifically, human acts are good when getting closer to the creative principle, but evil when far from it.
    The Best Possible World, But Not For Us, Issue 165, Philosophy Now

    Definition from Wiki:

    Axiarchism (from Greek axia {ἀξία, a-ksi-a} 'value' and arche {ἀρχή < (verb) ἄρχω} 'rule') is a metaphysical position that everything that exists, including the universe itself, exists for a good purpose. The word was coined by Canadian philosopher John Leslie.[1][2]Wiki - Axiarchism

    The article links it to Taoism:

    Just so, instead of being human-targeted as many theistic ethical systems are, natural axiarchism chooses the way of nature as its ideal.
    This view resonates most of all with the Chinese philosophical religion of Daoism. ‘The Dao’ means ‘the way of nature’, and in Daoism human values are totally grounded in natural forces and processes.
    Daoism advocates following a simple orderly life, living in unity with society, and respecting and preserving the diversity of life forms. Living in harmony with nature is Daoism’s fundamental principle. In this way, natural axiarchism can be seen as a metaphysical grounding for Daoist morality.
    Philosophy Now

    There is an assumption that the universe exists for a good purpose. Of what use is an 'axiarchic creative principle' if it doesn't care about human live and values. Arguably, part of Nature. Also, that there is only form of Daoism and way of thinking about it.

    The thread title: AXIARCHISM as 21st century TAOISM

    The article and the OP don't really focus on the 21st century or its diversity. Such as:

    In the early years of the religion’s formation, Daoism quickly integrated several aspects of Chinese cosmology that were not obviously an initial part of the religion. The most prominent of these were the concepts of yin and yang. Daoism’s ability to syncretize with its surrounding context continued throughout the tradition’s history. When Buddhism entered China, Daoism absorbed many elements still seen today, elements such as the presence of altars to the bodhisattva Guanyin in many Daoist temples.

    Since Daoism did not travel in the same manner as, and lacked the popularity of, Buddhism, its numbers in America have grown relatively slowly. Today, it is estimated there are around 30,000 Daoist practitioners living in the United States. Now that American Daoists are becoming a larger part of the religious landscape, this openness to change is shaping the religion in distinct ways and presenting unique issues. [...]

    Currently, American Daoism in the 21st century is undergoing a phase of self-definition as it grapples with issues of interfaith interaction, decentralization, and the contrasting practices of converts and immigrants. Some scholars have suggested that a specific form of “American Daoism” will not form; rather, the great diversity of practice within America will result in “American Daoisms.”

    From: https://hwpi.harvard.edu/files/pluralism/files/american_daoism_in_the_21st_century_1.pdf
  • The News Discussion
    News from the Guardian.
    Revealed: Microsoft deepened ties with Israeli military to provide tech support during Gaza war
    Leaked documents shed light on how Israel integrated the US tech giant into its war effort to meet growing demand for cloud and AI tools.

    The Israeli military’s reliance on Microsoft’s cloud technology and artificial intelligence systems surged during the most intensive phase of its bombardment of Gaza, leaked documents reveal.

    The files offer an inside view of how Microsoft deepened its relationship with Israel’s defence establishment after 7 October 2023, supplying the military with greater computing and storage services and striking at least $10m in deals to provide thousands of hours of technical support.

    Microsoft’s deep ties with Israel’s military are revealed in an investigation by the Guardian with the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and a Hebrew-language outlet, Local Call. It is based in part on documents obtained by Drop Site News, which has published its own story.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/23/israeli-military-gaza-war-microsoft

    I use Microsoft. Can anyone recommend other options?
  • AXIARCHISM as 21st century TAOISM
    My personal non-religious philosophical worldview has some aspects in common with ancient Chinese Taoism : the Way of Nature. But I just came across another name for a similar concept. In Philosophy Now magazine (12/24 ; 01/25) the cover title is The Return of God. It presents articles on various attitudes toward the god concept; including Atheism and Agnosticism.Gnomon

    Thank you. I'll take a look. :sparkle:
    https://philosophynow.org/issues/165/The_Best_Possible_World_But_Not_For_Us
  • AXIARCHISM as 21st century TAOISM
    My guess is that this boils down to just another ethical system based upon humility, kindness, acceptance and such. If that's the case, let's stop being so vague and just enumerate the things I need to do in 10 simple commands. I've been following these taoist threads a bit, and I'd rather someone just speak in prose and not poems and lay it out.Hanover

    I'm not someone who follows 10 commandments, and none of them are all that simple. Strict Rules or Guidelines are not in prose and can be pretty dogmatic. You really want things to be set in stone?
    Some do, and it is in this lack of flexibility and movement that we find some cannot deal with changing
    world realities. There is a wish to return to traditional moralities, as laid down by Man. Or dictators.

    From the Tao follows Nature thread. Following Bahm's translation of the TTC and his part in developing the Humanist Manifesto:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/963041

    Be creedless; that is, be intelligent enough to make adaptations without dependence upon some formula.
    Be self-reliant; that is, be not dependent upon supernatural agency for intellectual support or moral guidance.
    Be critical; that is, question assumptions and seek certitude scientifically.
    Be tolerant; that is, be open-minded and hold conclusions tentatively.
    Be active; that is, live today and grow by exercising his capacities.
    Be efficient; that is, accomplish the most with the least effort.
    Be versatile; that is, vary his interests to attain a variety of interesting thoughts.
    Be cooperative; that is, find some of his satisfactions in social activities.
    Be appreciative; that is, make the present enjoyable by his attitude.
    Be idealistic; that is, create and live by ideals which he finds inspiring.
    Wiki - Archie J. Bahm
  • Tao follows Nature
    But goals are derived from aims. And all aiming is Nature's aiming, and is Nature's way of being itself.Translated by Archie J. Bahm, 1958

    Also, not sure of this. Human goals or aims seem not to be the same as that of Nature.
    How do we even know if Nature has a goal or aim? Is it simply to be itself?
    So, how useful is this? The Tao just is. Humans just are? No, there is a vision here of improvement and growing. But will humans, their greed and inventions kill nature? Or will Nature always survive. No matter what? The Universe is greater than our world.
  • Tao follows Nature

    Returning to the TTC, 25. And another translation. Why this one, out of the many? Are you working your way through the terebess list? https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html
    Or is it one that 'works' for you, or prefer, in some way?

    There exists something which is prior to all beginnings and endings, Which, unmoved and unmanifest, itself neither begins nor ends.
    All-pervasive and inexhaustible, it is the perpetual source of everything else,
    For want of a better name, I call it Nature. If I am forced to describe it, I speak of it as "ultimate reality."
    Translated by Archie J. Bahm, 1958

    I think Bahm stands out well in comparison to some already discussed. [ See below * ]
    The voice seems authoritative, explanatory, yet not dogmatic. It goes further in describing the Tao as 'ultimate reality'. It's nature is that of Nature. The Tao follows Nature. It is both called Nature and accompanies it. A combination of Part and the Whole. As a seed or source - growing like the fruit of cherry tree. The circle of the seasons. The eternal return.

    My problem lies in what is meant by 'ultimate reality'. According to Bahn:

    Ultimate reality involves initiation of growth, initiation of growth involves completion of growth, and completion of growth involves returning to that whence it came.

    Nature is ultimate, the principle of initiating is ultimate, and the principle of perfecting is ultimate. And the intelligent person is also ultimate. Four kinds of ultimate, then, exist, and the intelligent man is one of them.
    Translated by Archie J. Bahm, 1958

    The word 'ultimate' is repeated. Does it mean the same thing, every time? There are 4 kinds. How do they pertain, or relate, to 'reality'?
    Ultimate: Fundamental, basic, primary, absolute, infinite, model or ideal, conclusive, unquestionable...
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/ultimate.html
    Reality: Actuality, existence, world, truth...
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/reality.html

    There is an emphasis on the 'intelligent man'. What does he mean by this? Why the emphasis on 'intelligent'? Not all men are. Unless, it simply means having an ability to think. It's unfortunate that Bahm keeps to the word 'man' rather than 'human' or 'human beings' (as per Jane English update). Then again, a man of his time. Edit: On a re-read, I note he also used the word 'person'.

    Man devotes himself to satisfying his desires, fulfilling his purposes, realizing his ideals, or achieving his goals. But goals are derived from aims. And all aiming is Nature's aiming, and is Nature's way of being itself.Translated by Archie J. Bahm, 1958

    Curious about Bahm, I discover:
    He was a member of numerous committees to support and promote the exchange of philosophical ideas and organized the Albuquerque Chapter of the Southwestern Regional American Humanist Association in 1954. He was one of the signers of the Humanist Manifesto.[2] He was also an organizer, past president, and past secretary-treasurer of the New Mexico Philosophical Society.Wiki - Archie J. Bahm

    The Humanist Manifesto
    https://web.archive.org/web/20121020110719/http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_II

    For anyone looking for a list of '10 Commandments', this might come close:

    Bahm in 1933 contributed “A Religious Affirmation” to The New Humanist, listing items that “a person should”:

    Be creedless; that is, be intelligent enough to make adaptations without dependence upon some formula.
    Be self-reliant; that is, be not dependent upon supernatural agency for intellectual support or moral guidance.
    Be critical; that is, question assumptions and seek certitude scientifically.
    Be tolerant; that is, be open-minded and hold conclusions tentatively.
    Be active; that is, live today and grow by exercising his capacities.
    Be efficient; that is, accomplish the most with the least effort.
    Be versatile; that is, vary his interests to attain a variety of interesting thoughts.
    Be cooperative; that is, find some of his satisfactions in social activities.
    Be appreciative; that is, make the present enjoyable by his attitude.
    Be idealistic; that is, create and live by ideals which he finds inspiring.

    ***

    [*]
    To compare:

    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name.
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great


    [...]

    Therefore, “Tao is great;
    Heaven is great;
    Earth is great;
    The human being is also great.”
    These are the four great powers of the universe,
    And the human being is one of them
    Jane English (update)

    ***

    There was something formless and perfect
    before the universe was born.
    It is serene. Empty.
    Solitary. Unchanging.
    Infinite. Eternally present.
    It is the mother of the universe.
    For lack of a better name,
    I call it the Tao
    .

    [...]
    The Tao is great.
    The universe is great.
    Earth is great.
    Man is great.
    These are the four great powers.
    Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988
  • Deep Songs
    Have we had this one?unenlightened

    I can't recall but I don't think so. Worth a repeat, anyway! :cool:
    Your link takes me to 'Video unavailable'. I found this one:



    I learned the truth at seventeen
    That love was meant for beauty queens
    And high school girls with clear skinned smiles
    Who married young and then retired
    The valentines I never knew
    The Friday night charades of youth
    Were spent on one more beautiful
    At seventeen I learned the truth

    Chorus

    And those of us with ravaged faces
    Lacking in the social graces
    Desperately remained at home
    Inventing lovers on the phone
    Who called to say, "Come dance with me"
    And murmured vague obscenities
    It isn't all it seems
    At seventeen

    A brown eyed girl in hand-me-downs
    Whose name I never could pronounce
    Said, "Pity please the ones who serve
    They only get what they deserve"
    And the rich relationed hometown queen
    Marries into what she needs
    With a guarantee of company
    And haven for the elderly

    Chorus

    Remember those who win the game
    Lose the love they sought to gain
    In debentures of quality
    And dubious integrity
    The small-town eyes will gape at you
    In dull surprise when payment due
    Exceeds accounts received
    At seventeen

    [ Instrumental break ]

    To those of us who knew the pain
    Of valentines that never came
    And those whose names were never called
    When choosing sides for basketball
    It was long ago and far away
    The world was younger than today
    And dreams were all they gave for free
    To ugly duckling girls like me

    Chorus

    We all play the game, and when we dare
    To cheat ourselves at solitaire
    Inventing lovers on the phone
    Repenting other lives unknown
    That call and say, "Come dance with me"
    And murmur vague obscenities
    And ugly girls like me
    At seventeen
    Songwriters: Janis Ian. For non-commercial use only.
  • Tao follows Nature
    In short, while physics provides empirical insights into the workings of the universe, metaphysics offers a framework for understanding the underlying principles that govern those observations. One can inform the other.punos

    Isn't this necessary if we are to have an holistic approach to understanding life?
    It's similar to what I've just discussed with @Fooloso4.
    Regarding the play of opposites.
    I see no reason why this would be objected to by the author/s of the TCC.
  • Tao follows Nature
    We would not expect attaining and tenuous to be joined together. They seem to contradict each other, but throughout there is a play of opposites:

    Everyone in the world knows that when the beautiful strives to be
    beautiful, it is repulsive.
    Everyone knows that when the good strives to be good, it is no good.5
    And so,
    To have and to lack generate each other.6
    Difficult and easy give form to each other.
    Long and short off-set each other.
    High and low incline into each other.
    Note and rhythm harmonize with each other.
    Before and after follow each other.
    (Chapter 2)
    Fooloso4

    Thank you. I understand the play of opposites. Isn't this found in other philosophical, or even literary, texts where unity is comprised of interconnection and interdependence. For some reason, I'm reminded of Plato's interplay of serious and fun. The humour not always obvious.
    The Ying/Yang. The natural themes of birth/death. Reason/emotion.
    All make up Life as we know it. Pain/Pleasure.


    I am beginning to appreciate the artistry in some translations of the TCC.

    Here is the equivalent excerpt from Jane English:

    Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
    All can know good as good only because there is evil.

    Therefore having and not having arise together;
    Difficult and easy complement each other;
    Long and short contrast each other;
    High and low rest upon each other;
    Voice and sound harmonize each other;
    Front and back follow each other.
  • Tao follows Nature
    Except:

    Attain extreme tenuousness
    Fooloso4

    I had a hard time understanding this the first time round.

    And if I ever had an inkling, it is no longer shining through the dust of memory.

    Would it be worth your while to explain again? My brain is turning away.

    Yes. Fortunately, it is possible to reach a better understanding of actions and motivations. By ways and means...

    Perhaps I'm blaming my brain when really I've had enough!
    This haunting sense of deja vue...
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