Freedom requires knowledge of nature, and so we must study the sciences. We are natural creatures and must understand nature to understand ourselves. Likewise, we must master nature, “subdue it and have dominion over it,” in order to enact our will.

Freedom requires knowledge of the Logos, and so we must study philosophy, logic, and mathematics.

Freedom requires knowledge of the self, and so we must study psychology, the great works of art, etc. — Count Timothy von Icarus

We. Must. Must we? Really? So much freedom...for all...

Quick early morning thoughts re:

1. Is it possible for anyone to have total freedom?
2. What kinds of freedom can a person have?
3. What kinds of freedom can subgroups have within a greater society?
4. Are there natural, insurmountable limits to individual freedom?
5. Are socially imposed limits necessary?
6. Can and should all people have the same amount of personal freedom?
7. How do we distinguish a freedom from a right? — Vera Mont

1. No. Death might be the ultimate freedom.
2. As many as can be thought of but usually limited and categorised, as per: https://helpfulprofessor.com/types-of-freedom/
Freedoms to read, reflect, write, choose, roam and wonder...desire, fear, vote, pray, eat leaves.
3. What 'greater society' are you thinking of? Subgroups or tribes, there are many. Freedoms limited.
4.

By natural I mean something like a physical or psychological obstacle. — Vera Mont

So, yes.
5. What specifically do you mean by 'social' and 'imposition'?
6. How do you quantify 'amount' of personal freedom? The 'should' suggests an ethical component, as in @Count Timothy von Icarus's 'Duty and Punishment'. A squiggly can of worms, probably worth a thread of its own.

We have a moral duty to be free then, so that we can choose the good. This is why criminals have a right to be punished. We do not punish merely to deter crime. To do this is to treat another human being like an animal to be domesticated.

7. They are related; complex and overlap, according to type and context:
Bookmarked:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/
section 4 - Rights and Freedom
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/#RighFree

Thanks.
But then I've just gone on to read, under the same heading:
The Essence of Freedom is What is Essential to It

[...] We are the midwives of the Absolute. We are Mary, the theotokos, giving birth to the Body of Christ, his Church. As the Blessed Virgin served to create his first physical body, so we now construct his immanent body through world history. We come together to form the Church and strive to fulfill its Marian mission of the creation of the Body of Christ.

I really don't see how this follows.

***

Edit: since writing the above, I note you added significantly more to your originally brief reply.

Apologies if this is a bit long. I have thought a lot on this and have some articles to draw on:
https://medium.com/@tkbrown413/why-freedom-is-the-key-to-happiness-be274bf5135c
https://medium.com/@tkbrown413/why-francis-fukuyamas-last-man-is-not-a-paradox-55310474e1fd
https://medium.com/@tkbrown413/freedom-requires-determinism-3cf4025d3c3d — Count Timothy von Icarus

I started on the first article and stopped short at this:

We have a duty to be free. This is why criminals have a right to be punished. — Why freedom is the key to happiness - tkbrown

What is meant by a duty to be free?
And how does it follow that 'criminals have a right to be punished'?

...tends to land in the Lounge and disgorge sundry marlin, kelp and old boots. — Vera Mont

Not with your keen eye and focus it won't. It's placed specifically under 'Political Philosophy'.
Now, get back on topic, pronto!
Looking forward to a great exchange of views and arguments.

So I recommend to anyone else who is interested that they read it only after they have added their own thoughts. — Vera Mont

For sure! But I'm feeling like I can't be bothered to think, right now. Freedom to be lazy?!
Also bookmarked 40 types of freedom:
https://helpfulprofessor.com/types-of-freedom/

You're asking great questions over and above the 2 concepts.
There will be quite the conversation, I'm sure of it!
A wide net cast...

Freedom of speech

Inappropriate and offensive. Who would be amused by this? The sick and the low.

Edited for clarity:

The French satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo has stirred up anger again over the front page of its latest edition which focuses on the earthquake in Turkey

The French weekly magazine Charlie Hebdo's cartoon about the earthquake in Turkiye is continuing to receive negative criticism from all over the world.

Not only in Turkish society but several European nations and other countries have been reacting to its caricature.
[...]
The image published by Charlie Hebdo on the same day of the earthquake with the title "Cartoon of the Day" reads "Earthquake in Turkiye. Even, no need to send tanks." — Freedom of Speech or Insulting? - Euronews

***

Fine line

The critical voice of the political cartoonist can provide a vital safety valve for a society. They can give expression to frustrations, grievances and opposition. But cartoonists need to remain sensitive to local political and social histories.

It’s a fine line between balancing the need to protect free speech and these concerns. Political cartoonists need to continue to speak truth to power, but in so doing must ensure they do not cause division and hostility which may threaten the most fundamental of rights – the right to life. — The Conversation

Freedom
https://xkcd.com/706/

May I assume that we all distinguish positive and negative freedom - freedom to do something and freedom from restraint by another ? — Vera Mont

A short story on the 2 concepts of freedom or liberty:
'Imagine you are driving a car through town, and you come to a fork in the road...'
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/#TwoConLib

This thread has wandered all over the place and I hadn't noticed it was moved to the lounge but I can live with all that because I think the few of us who stayed with the thread have made progress. — Athena

OK, that's good to know. :smile:

How do you write? — hypericin

This question works for both literary and philosophical 'pieces'.
The way we think. Our different styles of communication to attract and keep a reader's attention.
To seduce and escape to other possible worlds.

I'm intrigued by how our minds forage and forge connections, creatively and analytically.
Is it down to personality? Or what?

Literary Writing Process

Interesting to consider what music, if any, inspires a certain kind of story.
What environment works best for authors at various stages of the writing process?
Do you mix it up? — Amity

Metazoomical.

Fat Larry's Band:
Peaceful Journey


Zoom

Perfect specimens. Pure gold. Makes me feel all...'zoomy'! Metazoomical.



***
Apologies to @hypericin who started this thread a month ago. [*]

I have sometimes wondered where a thread went when it was moved to the Lounge, but now, I automatically look in every day. For one thing, there is more likely to be humour. — Vera Mont

The timing of the move (3 days ago) is curious.
We've perhaps become too 'chatty' and veered too much off-topic?
Is this why an excellent topic is moved to The Lounge?
@hypericin Were you informed of the change of venue and the reasons?

[*]
Literary Writing Process

This topic stems from the recently concluded literary activity.

I'm curious what people's writing process is. Mine may be unusual. — hypericin

We (TPF) benefit from both discussions and creative expressions. — 180 Proof

That made me think of data mining.

Online forums provide a wealth of publicly accessible data and have proven particularly useful for critical psychologists wishing to examine naturalistic data on a wide range of social phenomena. This article begins by considering the use of online discussion forums for critical discursive psychological research and outlines ethical debates regarding their use (particularly in light of past and current British Psychological Society guidelines). To demonstrate how such data can be used in critical psychology I provide an illustrative example of a discursive analysis of a single online discussion thread taken from a diabetes newsgroup that examines anti-social online behaviours in the form of “trolling,” “flaming,” and heterosexism.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282070655_A_Case_for_Using_Online_Discussion_Forums_in_Critical_Psychological_Research


TPF a rich seam.

The chorus is a 'refrain' of the song - the much-repeated comments and themes.
Justice, harm and retribution. Morality of the contract. The main theme of obedience to law. — Amity

To review previous posts and return to the question of when is it right to break the law:
[emphases added]

But does the law overstate its case?
— Fooloso4
I'm not really interested in sorting out who's right or wrong here. It's just opposing views orbiting the idea of normativity. — frank

You swerved the question. Almost as if you had no interest in the main theme of Crito. Or the imagination to consider what arguments/opposing views matter more.
It's not 'just' about orbiting views. The question continues to have relevance.
We would do well to consider it.

I admire Thomas Paine, as my forum handle suggests. His arguments for democracy are in tune with the problem of absolute power as described in Statesman.I wonder if our present condition is one where we cannot distinguish the regimes so clearly. Maybe the tyrannical, the oligarchs, and the dynamic of unfortunate public opinion coexist simultaneously. — Paine

Perhaps our 'present condition' (national/global politics?) is due not only to increased power and riches in a few hands but lack of knowledge, education and more than a little complacency. Sometimes we only know 'what is going on' far too late. Laws are passed without due and careful process. We only know what 'public opinion' is by being told of it via the media and polls. Politicians on all sides manipulate and deepen the divides between 'the people' as they see fit.

Contrary to the way Socrates frames it, the city in question is not just "any city". It is one whose laws are said to be enacted justly. The problem, however, is not simply justice but the force needed to prevent the law from being overthrown. Although Socrates talks as if it is a matter of persuasion, of convincing the city, that too would be a:

subversion of the law wherebyjudgements, once delivered, stand supreme.
Philosophy poses a threat to the city. Socrates is silenced by force. The law proclaims that he does not stand on an equal footing with the law. To convince them would require doing the very thing they want to prevent him from doing, that is, philosophizing. — Fooloso4

Yes and yet the laws proclaim that they encourage and tolerate 'persuasion' from about 51b-52b:

Anyone who disobeys commits a 3-fold injustice: he disobeys us, we who nurtured him; and having agreed to obey us, he neither obeys us, nor persuades us otherwise if we are not acting aright, even though we lay 52A the options before him and do not issue rough commands to do what we tell him. No, we offer two alternatives: either do as we say, or persuade us otherwise. But he does neither of these.' — Horan

It is the opinion of the men of Athens that Socrates is doing harm to the young people. His disobedience suggests that he thinks that whatever harm and injustice to the city and its laws his disobedience may cause, the suppression of philosophy is a greater harm. — Fooloso4

It is men fearing a loss of power, position and riches who have manipulated opinion in certain quarters.
I wonder how Socrates would react in today's political environment. For example:

This article about the climate crisis and Chris Packham's 'extraordinary, anguished think piece – opens with an audio montage of Packham’s desperate thoughts about the climate crisis, arranged so they chaotically overlap'. Is it time to break the law?

The problem is crystallised by a chat with John Gummer, Lord Deben. He chaired the government’s Climate Change Committee and co-authored a report that slammed Britain’s green initiatives as dangerously inadequate: “We should be on a war footing,” he tells Packham, noting that a 1C rise in global temperatures is already causing mayhem, and we are headed for 2C or 3C. But when asked about radical protests, Gummer bristles, warning against “counter-productive” action and insisting, “We have to have the rule of law.” — Is it time to break the law? - The Guardian

"We should be on a war footing" v "We have to have the rule of law"
Radical protests being 'counter-productive'.
So, being on a 'war footing' is fine - that is the preferred language.
Who is the enemy here?

When laws ban the right to protest and more besides, are 'they' asking for trouble?

We (TPF) benefit from both discussions and creative expressions. — 180 Proof

A Good Stew.

I think it would work really well as an 'episode' in a novel of linked short stories.
:cool: Yes, I'd prefer a picaresque novel to a strictly progressive, bildungsroman-like form. Besides, I still have no plan for exactly where or how the characters go on — 180 Proof

'A Good Stew' of minds, memories, music and magic - to name just a few ingredients.
The sense of serendipity and things coming together for rare "Aha!" moments.
Like I had last night when I finished the audio version of 'Dandelion Wine' - Ray Bradbury.
Thanks to @Vera Mont for the recommendation! I'll go on to read the hard-back treasure...

The penultimate chapter or 'episode' in this novel of short stories is about a right old stew!
I won't spoil it but imagine some well-intentioned meddlesome tidy and organised Aunt who visits Grandma's house. Her efforts to clean up will improve an already brilliant feast enjoyed by all.
Or so she thinks...

Aunt Rose with her need to house-keep, to control the ingredients of 'happiness'. The food was inedible, the family and boarders went to bed cold and hungry. The intuitive warmth of creativity was missing.

[ An aside: it reminded me a little of TPF Categories - a place for everything and everything in its place.
Here's the list and descriptions of each:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/all
Where would you go to find a discussion like this? Or to combine creative ideas?
The Lounge - 'Hang out, blether, talk about kittens'?! I don't think so!
Far better, in my opinion, The Symposium with its more inspiring, already lively, creative sections. But do all the sections there go out 'live' to front page? Well, the Shoutbox does...]

That's all I want to say for now. Gotta fly....

Thanks for taking the time to answer my specific questions. Your responses make sense.
Love the 'hot mess'!

It was in place there for months, if I'm not mistaken. In any case, the topic seems to have only three major contributors and moving it to the lounge section didn't seem to bother them at all. — praxis

Interesting.
I wonder if the blethering aspect increased after the move.
Unfortunately, I think I've added to that!

I like that he has a name, but find it odd that he and the absent lover have names, while the main characters have none.
Is that nit-picky? — Vera Mont

No. The lack of names made it difficult to refer to the characters. It's why I gave them titles of my own!

I read your post and then re-read 'Good Stew'. It was worth it; interesting to revisit old comments.
I look forward to reading the views of @Count Timothy von Icarus and @Vera Mont and anyone else new to the story.

Your responses to the readers' questions were excellent, clear and again thought-provoking:

Amity: What vows and to whom, why and why not. The reader has more questions.

180 Proof: The author has more questions too! Good reason to extend the tale and flesh out the background.

Amity: Talking about hunger, still no mention of this 'Good Stew'...unless, unless...
It's a 'God Puzzle'...or an anxiety over what is the right thing to do.
A different kind of a recipe to follow, for a good life.

180 Proof: The Socratic question, no?

180 Proof: "What would form the basis...why knowledge, of course.
OM wants to make sure she knows what she needs to know before she can 'properly' choose to join in
Jaquan's fate or not."
As Socrates says (paraphrasing) 'There is one good and that is knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.' — Good Stew - 180 Proof

***
I contrasted the high risks or stakes in your story, re truth and knowledge, with those in TPF.
What it means for an individual's sense of wellbeing if their beliefs are overturned. Personal, psychological and political. It might not seem 'risky' simply to talk or question but a lot depends on the intentions/aims of other participants.

The short stories and fiction can raise philosophical questions in a more creative, perhaps acceptable way - all the better to digest 'A Good Stew'!

***
I also put forward a suggestion re The Symposium in contrast to The Lounge ( where this discussion has been moved between my readings and response!) I had to search for it...

[Plato's Symposium seems to be about a convivial meeting with each participant giving a speech.
Taking turns. Perhaps a desire for a sense of unity, even as they differ.
...an interesting way forward in TPF's very own 'Symposium'?
To include 'Speeches' about e.g. Eros or eros of. [specific topic]

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/585578

***

...whenever I come back to it either to expand and polish the story or develop it as a chapter in a longer piece or as an 'episode' for an anthology of linked stories which explore the same setting (world). An experiment more than anything else, not my usual style; I enjoyed it though the jury (in my head) is still out on the tale's merits — 180 Proof

I think it would work really well as an 'episode' in a novel of linked short stories.
I've developed a love of that form. Perhaps because it's easier to read!

OK, it's been a long day and I'm tired. Loosing my mind...
G'night!

Didn’t mean to tag you Amity. Corrected. — Mikie

Ta, now I won't loose sleep over it! Stopping now.

?

No mild offence intended. You're welcome.

bike-specific paths — Jamal

This is interesting. A number of roads now have wide paths alongside. I think there are signs on some that say 'Cyclists' but they are clearly the only paths available for walkers, joggers etc.
And cyclists still use ordinary pavements to cycle on...

I'd been wondering why more cyclists weren't using bells. I thought they used to be compulsory.

Whilst bike bells are not a legal requirement, unless you live in the most rural parts of the UK it is strongly recommended that you use one. At under £5.00 bike bells are incredibly affordable and easy to replace.

Pedestrians, other cyclists and drivers all need to be aware of your presence and you never know, you could just save your own life or someone else’s. — Do bikes have to have a bell?

Bicycle Bell Law UK
Rule 66 of the Highway Code states that cyclists must let others know where they are when necessary. For example ‘by ringing your bell if you have one’. The if is key here; having or using a bicycle bell is therefore not a mandatory legal requirement in the UK.

It is recommended that cyclists equip a bicycle bell, and all UK stores will are required to equip one upon sale, but it is up to you whether you choose to use it or not. — Discerning cyclist

I know you are a great guy, safety conscious and wouldn't hurt a fly.
This thread's great. The things I've learned!

I believe your complaint about vaping is an irrational moral judgment more than a concern for public health, and that you’re in the grip of a moral panic. But that’s the interesting premise of this thread: in sharing what you find to be obnoxious, some readers will find you obnoxious. — Jamal

Ah, now you're smokin'!

Pedestrians on cycle paths when I’m cycling, especially those who jump left or right at the last moment, when they realize there’s a bike coming. I want to say this is idiotic, because it really is the worst thing they could do, but my reasonable self tells my intensely annoyed self that it’s just a natural response and that I might do the same myself. — Jamal

Like many walkers on a multi-purpose recreational path, I have to keep my wits about me.
One wrong move or stumble and I might be hurt. Along with damage to bike, scooter or others.

When I am aware of other users, I generally stop and pull into the side when necessary.
I was pleased and so thanked passing cyclists - a couple and then a single - when they gave sufficient and early warning. In addition to ringing a bell, one even called out "Cyclist coming!"

I don't know if there is specific training; rules or guide-lines for cyclists or any other path users.
The best way to warn others; to reduce the potential for harm for all concerned?

To me, vaping was a good way to stop smoking. No doubt it has helped many people that way, and this is a good thing. — Jamal

Fantastic. Well done you! But it's still nothing more than a dummy tit. An addictive comforter.
The original sugar tit:

It was made by placing a spoonful of sugar, or honey, in a small patch of clean cloth, then gathering the cloth around the sugar and twisting it to form a bulb. The bulb was then secured by twine or a rubber band. The baby's saliva would slowly dissolve the sugar in the bulb.

In use the exposed outfolded fabric could give the appearance of a flower in the baby's mouth. David Ransel quotes a Russian study by Dr. N. E. Kushev while discussing a similar home-made cloth-and-food pacifier called a soska (со́ска); there, the term "flower", as used colloquially by mothers, refers to a bloom of mold in the child's mouth caused by decay of the contents.

As early as 1802 a German physician, Christian Struve, described the sugar tit as "one of the most revolting customs". — Sugar tit- wiki

The problem for others is in the secondary inhalation of these chemicals.
Secondhand smoke and vaping is more than just a 'revolting custom' or an 'intense annoyance'...

I use a vape but I don’t want to be a “vape guy” — Jamal

It started with a vape. A want becomes a need. It's addictive and harmful. And it's not only guys. There's been an increase in young females vaping. Marketed as cool and comes in cute flavours like pink lemonade, bubblegum and watermelon ice. There is more availability of disposable vapes.

Data released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed that one in 15 women (6.7%) aged 16-24 vaped daily in 2022 – up from fewer than one in 50 (1.9%) in 2021 – with young women overtaking their male counterparts for e-cigarette usage.

The rise in young women vaping mirrors findings in an NHS survey of school-aged children last year, which showed more than one in five 15-year-old girls using e-cigarettes – hugely outstripping their male counterparts. — Number of young women vaping daily more than triples - the Guardian

Ah, so you are a vape-guy, then?

I was personally injured by the comments about vaping, but I’m a big boy, I can take it — Jamal

Did I read that you own a vape shop - or was that another part of my TPF hallucination?

It is the first thing that came to my mind when I thought about annoyances. But, I didn't want to post it because my intention was not to disrespect the smokers of this forum (if there are actually any). It is literally a waste of money and toxicity for the environment. You know, it is bollocks how the state makes advertisements against smoke addiction, but at the end of the day they collect a lot of money in taxes thanks to all sold cigarette packages.

My mother is a smoker. I always give my best to help her to get rid of smoking. It is not an easy task. We have already reduced the consumption of packages and she "only" smokes half of the cigarette. I will be pushing forward until she definitely stops smoking. — javi2541997

Vaping wasn't my initial thought.
But it seems to be increasing - and I'm more aware of it.
Yesterday, a young man vaped his way across the junction before me.
He was shrouded in steam, leaving a trail of smelly stuff behind.
I chose to walk in the other direction, to breathe relatively cleaner air. Good to have a choice.

I wondered what the mist contained. And more:

Vaping is when you use a handheld electronic device to breathe a mist (“vapor”) into your lungs. An e-cigarette, vape pen or other electronic nicotine delivery system (ENDS) heats a liquid of nicotine, flavoring, propylene glycol and other additives into an aerosol that you inhale through a mouthpiece. Vaping can cause breathing problems, organ damage, addiction and other conditions. — Vaping - cleveland clinic

It's good that you are helping your Mum quit smoking and that she is willing to try.
This article and BTL comments might be of help:

A friend who I considered to be almost as serious a vaper as me had managed 86 days off hers. Another friend told me how she had given up cigarettes for 18 months by reading Allen Carr’s book Easy Way to Quit Smoking.

I dared to believe that I could, perhaps, quit nicotine. I bought the vaping version of the book and read it in a couple of days. It works by dismantling any belief you have that vaping is a pleasurable or helpful activity – for example, the notion that it helps you concentrate or that it calms you in stressful situations. Quitting is reframed as a purely positive no-brainer and, what’s more, an easy thing to do, instead of the torturous deprivation that I feared.

The book was boring and repetitive but it worked some kind of sorcery because I obediently puffed my last vape – you are encouraged to vape as you read – threw it in the bin, and somehow I have been nicotine-free for an astounding 402 days. This is the first time in 20 years that I have not been ingesting some form of nicotine on a daily basis.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/18/addicted-nicotine-20-years-quit-vaping

Best wishes!

like a wine-soaked evening that goes on for months. — Jamal

Plenty of those under 'Interesting Stuff'!
But I know when to leave it...with liver still functioning. Cheers.

It's so full of disparate topics and ideas and individual convictions, in no coherent pattern, that it belongs nowhere in particular. It reminds me of some long, wine-soaked nights of my youth. Nostalgic, y'know? — Vera Mont

Yes, I can see that there is no coherent pattern.
But that's to be expected when it comes to a 4-month long philosophical conversation!
With 25 pages and 736 replies - that's a helluva long, wine-soaked night.
Like wine and cheese you and others have matured and I don't think this sharing of convictions, topics and ideas is a flippant chat.

I would first, again clearly state, my lack of academic qualifications in philosophy.
My field of academic expertise is Computing Science
I think however, that there is a great deal of philosophy in this thread and some chit chat as well.
I would use terms like social, political and cultural philosophy and perhaps even 'philosophy of life as a human,' but these are probably considered 'flippant' concoctions and associations of the word philosophy, which are not robust, academically accepted, uses of the word or field title as compared against those listed on TPF. — universeness

Philosophy might be an academic subject but on TPF, there is more of a mix. Some excellent contributors don't even consider themselves philosophers.

I think the discussion deserves to be Front Page. Perhaps in this subcategory:
Interesting Stuff
Politics and Current Affairs
Humanities and Social Sciences
Science and Technology

But the decision by @Jamal seems final and perhaps he is right!

Maybe you want my opinion on this issue? — Baden

Yes, I would like that. Also from the OP @Athena and the participants.
From the last page alone: @praxis @universeness @Vera Mont @180 Proof
How would you describe this thread?
Is it only a 'chat' or is there more to it? Has it touched on philosophy? How valuable have the exchanges been? What ideas/posts have made you think? And think again...
Would it be out of place in the main area?

Honestly, I haven't read enough to pipe in, but I do understand the frustration of good lounge threads being backgrounded. — Baden

Given that there are 25 pages, its place in the Lounge doesn't seem to have done it any harm.
When was it moved here? Perhaps it already had enough momentum to motivate.

That being said, there will be those who haven't even noticed it, tucked away as it is.
I haven't read it all. Only sampled a few pages. That was enough for me to 'pipe in'.
I felt the need to question. But that's me being me. Avoiding housework.

unless that's a trick question — Baden

What do you think is the real question? :chin:

technically I’m one of three administrators. — Jamal

Yes. I did notice Les Trois Mousquetaires - you, @Baden and @fdrake.
"All for one, and one for all"?

Vaping
Harmful and dangerous
First and second-hand
Money making
Lung destroying
Air polluting
The planet
Toxic waste
Why?

I disagree. — Jamal

Again, I disagree with your judgement. This thread is full of philosophy.
But, you're the boss.

OK. I think that was a mistake.
It's more than a 'chat'.
It's a fascinating philosophical conversation. Better than some on the 'Front Page'.
Hidden away. Such a shame...

Unfortunately, I haven't read all of this thread.
I have a question: "Why is it in The Lounge?"
@Jamal @Baden and team.

Sorry to LOOSE my temper. — Mikie

Better to keep the heid than lose it!
Sometimes
Cool is when you lose
the "OH!" of loose teeth
All the better to bite

The plumber advised:
"Lefty loosey, righty tighty"
To turn the sink stopper
To loosen and lose the yuck

The st/ickiness of bathroom bits
Flushing loos lose
Loose stools
In or on the bowl
Mostly