Tragedy can be beautiful because it highlights the human condition; it highlights the gap between beliefs and desires versus reality. But that's beautiful because it gives us a sense of perspective, which gives us a sense of the value of our beliefs and desires.

So, beauty seems to do that; it gives us perspective, and a sense of the value of our beliefs and desires. Beauty seems to say to us "what you desire, underneath all of your superficial desires, is good and right." Beauty has a welcoming character.

but what is the origin of the kind of beauty that has a non material trigger? — Daniel Sjöstedt

Welcome to the forum and brace for impact...

I think it's misplaced to think about it in evolutionary terms. It's not about survival, nonsensical as that might seem to modern ears.

I know, I can't find an evolutionary reason for developing a sense of beauty before tragedy, but logically, shouldn't there be an evolutionary answer for all of our behavior?

Maybe it has something to do with compassion?

I understand the evolutionary benefits of finding symmetrical faces and strong colors aesthetically pleasing — Daniel Sjöstedt

I wish you hadn't written this. Do you suppose Stephen Hawkins will survive longer than the scientists who promote such silliness?

It would be simple enough if it were just an ordinary survival mechanism — Daniel Sjöstedt

Life is far far more interesting than just survival, a silly, noxious theory that unfortunately refuses to die thanks to our education system. Life is about discovery and beauty is indeed in the eyes of the beholder. Beauty is something we feel and touches us and is current for everyone. But this isn't going to stop some scientist from trying to prove otherwise. Got to make a living somehow.

I completely agree :D But I am trying to understand the origin of a specific behavior, so it makes sense to ask why it developed in the first place.

It's an intellectual satisfaction upon bearing witness to transcendence. When something is the best form of something, or transcends the limitations of itself, kind, or expression and moves beyond it. We don't appreciate all good things equally, we're always waiting to hear a better song than we've ever heard before, see a more beautiful flower than we've ever seen before, etc.

This is tied into significance and meaning, and synergizes with other meaningful things (or our own instances of transcendence). Like the sky was never bluer than the day you were born. I never appreciated that song before until I listened to it with you, etc.

It's an intellectual satisfaction upon bearing witness to transcendence. — Wosret

Isn't it also a fundamental aspect of that transcendence? I agree with everything else you said.

I think beauty is related to a sense of awe, and the latter serves to make us feel part of something bigger, which the science says makes us less stressed and live longer.

You partake of the transcendence yourself to an extent in every case, sure. It requires a grasping, an appreciation, which is why it is intellectual, and not a sensation. The transcendence of the one elevates the whole world, even if some have eyes, but cannot see, as they say.

If the "something bigger" doesn't actually refer to anything and only serves to prolong life (why exactly?), then isn't that idea essentially a form of wish fulfillment?

For clarity, are you still talking about beauty when you say "it requires a grasping"?

Sometimes evolution has nothing better to do than just fuck about.

I never said awe "only" prolongs life.

There was a big article in New Scientist this week about awe. Apparently, chimps get goosebumps during thunderstorms and those pesky evolutionary psychologists think that a sense of awe increases group safety and bonding by temporarily reducing the importance of self (without reducing self esteem). There are experiments on people that neatly demonstrate this effect.

So that's the scientific explanation of a sense of awe. It makes for a nice qualia too :).

Yeah.

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... what is the origin of the spiritual sense of beauty?

A beautiful work of art does not correspond to our judgement's sense of a normative concept in the referent as presented. The tree is no longer a tree in a work of art. The law, the limit of the concept in judgement is freely transcended by the beauty in the work, and this transcendence is pleasurable. It drives our imagination, and in doing so it opens up cognitive space, illuminating what was not previously seen, enabling new concepts. The spirituality of a beautiful work of art, its aura. is that excess, or transcendence over our normative concepts, made possible by the work of art.

Funny:

Sometimes evolution has nothing better to do than just fuck about. — unenlightened

(Y)

The origin creativity is in the mind itself. It is what it is involved with throughout its existence. Spiritual creativity, or art as a self-expression, would be one form of creativity that seeks to externalize that which is inside. Most children do it as a matter of growing up, but both spirit and creativity are suppressed throughout one's years in most educational system. It is only afterwards that the fearless seek it out again and begin to rediscover it.

What I was trying to point out is that a sense of being a part of something bigger is something science can only describe the mechanics of; it doesn't answer any philosophical questions.

I'm still having trouble seeing how beauty is intellectual.

The science is a good starting point to embark on a philosophical journey, I suggest. A lot of old philosophical chestnuts can be cracked, if not yet smashed, by evolutionary science now I suggest.

The problem is that evolutionary science doesn't even address metaphysical or ontological questions, for instance, let alone aesthetic questions, as per the op.

I'm still having trouble seeing how beauty is intellectual. — Noble Dust

I struggle with that one too I must admit, though I think it might be possible.
Some say the equation "e to the i pi + 1 = 0" is beautiful but I just think it is literally "neat".

I don't have a problem with a given piece of intellectual content being beautiful, I just don't think beauty is inherently apprehended through the intellect, which I think Worset was saying.

"Wonder" is a better word for intellectual "beauty" perhaps, because it requires cognitive exploration to perceive it.

However, intellectuals are more likely to appreciate visual beauty IMO. Maybe they have more time on their hands?

both spirit and creativity are suppressed throughout one's years in most educational system. — Rich

(Y)

Some ideas that could work into your absurdly beautiful and tragic narrations:

Sublimation -- An indirect or learned means to fulfill desire. Putting desire to work for you, or the effects of limits placed on desire.

Sehnsucht -- Unfulfilled desire which no attempt quite satisfies, whether we undertake philosophical or poetic means or not to try to fulfill that desire. A desire for something dead or passed, nostalgia for the most beautiful time, the 1st of times, for God, for the ideal, et cetera.

Dopaminergic Reward System-- Greed is good. Every time around you have to transcend the base rate to maintain addiction. Without dopamine beauty isn't what it is. Beauty helps you to bootstrap (lure you) out or into situations with the promise of reward.

Maya (Veil of Illusion) -- Beauty Incarnate beyond which Nothing Exists. Endless sublimations, sehnsuchts and dopamine hits that go on and on until death. Symbolizing the whole in a nutshell (or in a part) by sheer force of illusion.

logically, shouldn't there be an evolutionary answer for all of our behavior? — Daniel Sjöstedt

That's where evolutionary biology has become something like a modern creation mythology. it is said to explain everything about human nature, in the way that the Biblical account (and its related mythologies and cultural histories) were supposed to have done. But, does it? The Origin of Species is just that - an account of the biological origin of species. But in current culture it has become so much more than a biological theory - it now occupies the place of a creation mythology, even though it might be a physically accurate account.

I am not arguing for any kind of intelligent design or creation mythology. I have never for one minute believed the biblical account to be literally true, but for that very reason the fact that it's not literally true doesn't have any particular significance as far as I am concerned. But mythological accounts address existential questions in a way that the science cannot.

As far as beauty is concerned, we might find a butterfly or a gouldian finch beautiful, but as evolutionary biology tells us, they're not really 'designed' to be beautiful at all; what we call 'beauty' is just nature's way of propagating their selfish genes. Humans can recognise beauty but again, as far as the Dawkins of this world are concerned, that is just an accident of biology. Nothing is really beautiful - well, nothing apart from the ability of science to explain everything.

What I was trying to point out is that a sense of being a part of something bigger is something science can only describe the mechanics of; it doesn't answer any philosophical questions. — Noble Dust

I don't think there are any "mechanics" involved: we have a sense of being part of something greater simply by virtue of being in a world. That 'being in a world' is a primordial mystery. Beauty consists in the evocation of that mystery; we have no other way of dealing with it, since we cannot explain it, and even if we could, to explain it would inevitably be to explain it away.

Repeated response deleted.

I'm not sure at all how to phrase this, but: what is the origin of the spiritual sense of beauty?

I understand the evolutionary benefits of finding symmetrical faces and strong colors aesthetically pleasing, but what is the origin of the kind of beauty that has a non material trigger?

How come you may experience a "spiritual" kind of beauty, for example, when listening to beautiful music, reading something beautiful, or just being with friends & family?

It would be simple enough if it were just an ordinary survival mechanism, but people do find tragic movies and depressing music beautiful as well, so I can't see how that makes sense. — Daniel Sjöstedt

Notice that you follow "evolutionary benefits" with "pleasing".

Not all beauty is "pleasing".

Some beauty is humbling. Some is sobering. Some is soothing. Some is awe-inspiring.

Serenity. Awe. Wonder. Harmony. Joy. Humility. Delight.

Beauty goes way beyond sensual pleasure and the absence of certain sensual irritants such as noise, asymmetry, etc.