If a woman had consented, it would not be assault or harassment, whether it was immoral or not. — TheWillowOfDarkness

Sure, I agree with this.

How is assault to be defined? Physically forcing someone (in this case a woman). How do you physically force someone if they want the activity in question?! :s Forcing them implies going against their will.

Your argument says otherwise. You're tying the immorality of sexual harassment and assault to that of consensual lust, as if the two were equivalent. The polemic supposed that, if one is to be against the immorality of sexual assault and harassment, then then they must also be against consensual lusts.

The hypocrisy is supposedly defined by someone being against sexual harassment or assault but for consensual lusting, as if being against the former mean you must be against the latter. This is simply not true. One is free to attack the immorality of sexual assault and harassment while also accepting consensual lustings. The former is a different question of value than the latter, no matter how moral or immoral consensual lustings might be.

Even if they were attracted to Trump, they could still object to his harassment and assault without any issue.
— TheWillowOfDarkness
If a woman wants a man to touch her, is that assault if the man touches her? I am condemning their lust in that part - namely that they secretly desire such things - NOT excusing Trump. Trump's behaviour is still immoral - EVEN IF - they actually do want to be touched by him.

No, the "retarded" one is clearly you. In this vile post of yours, you claim that it is not assault to grope a woman if she actually wanted it, which is defending sexual assault. And instead of condemning the assaulting male, you condemn the assaulted woman--pure sexism. And then you continue your vile sexism by asserting the women want to be groped when you have no reason to believe or know that at all.

That is pathetic, and sickening, and you and I are done. I have no more time for your sexist filth.

In this vile post of yours, you claim that it is not assault to grope a woman if she actually wanted it, which is defending sexual assault. — John Harris

Well is it assault if you grope a woman who wants you to grope her, maybe even asks you to grope her?! :s

And instead of condemning the assaulting male, you condemn the assaulted woman--pure sexism. And then you continue your vile sexism by asserting the woman want to be groped when you have no reason to believe or know that at all. — John Harris

Sorry to tell you, but there's no other possible conclusion. IF a woman wants it - then she is not assaulted. IF she is assaulted - then she doesn't want it. You can't have it both ways. Do you understand that?! Now you can say that I am wrong, that the women on TV don't want it, and would therefore be assaulted, sure! But you can't say that I am a sexist.

Also I did condemn the male, in fact I condemned the male EVEN IF the woman in question wants it, since I condemn the lust of the activity first and foremost. The assault itself presupposes lust, so striking at lust is striking at the root of the problem.

Sorry to tell you, but there's no other possible conclusion.

And you just proved you should have addressed this to you...:)

Well is it assault if you grope a woman who wants you to grope her, maybe even asks you to grope her?! — Agustino

Well, let's consider a hypothetical scenario where a woman wants to be groped but tells you not to grope her. Is consent (or lack thereof) defined according to desire or by words?

Says the sexist loser...:)

Well, let's consider a hypothetical scenario where a woman wants to be groped but tells you not to grope her. Is consent (or lack thereof) defined according to desire or by words? — Michael

Let's consider another hypothetical scenario where a woman doesn't want to be groped but tells you that you can grope her because of social or peer pressure say. Is consent defined by her words or by her desire?

Let's consider another hypothetical scenario where a woman doesn't want to be groped but tells you that you can grope her because of social or peer pressure say

That wasn't the scenario. So, you're moving the goalposts just further shows how wrong you were.

Is consent (or lack thereof) defined according to desire or by words? — Michael

In practice, by words, since we cannot with great certainty predict her real desires. But theoretically, it is by her desire, not by her words. If she says yes, but physically resists it for example, then it would be assault to grope her.

Is consent (or lack thereof) defined according to desire or by words?
— Michael
In practice, by words, since we cannot with great certainty predict her real desires. But theoretically, it is by her desire, not by her words. If she says yes, but physically resists it for example, then it would be wrong to grope her.

And the women in your scenario never said yes, so you're moving the goalposts again. You keep showing how wrong you were.

And the women in your scenario never said yes, so you're moving the goalposts again. You keep showing how wrong you were. — John Harris

But theoretically, it is by her desire, not by her words. — Agustino

That wasn't the scenario. So, you're moving the goalposts just further shows how wrong you were. — John HarrisRetard. Go under your bed and be quiet. I'm talking to more intelligent people than you now, who can understand the point I'm making. — Agustino

And you keep proving I'm right since you fail to even address my correct argument and fall back on sad childish personal attacks. Now you're sexist and a troll. And I'm talking to a sexist much less intelligent than me.

Her desire. That's why you have to be thinking about others. One cannot just treat words as a permission slip. You have to be considering what another person thinks and wants.

Her desire. That's why you have to be thinking about others. One cannot just treat words as a permission slip. You have to be considering what another person thinks and wants. — TheWillowOfDarkness

I agree :)

If a woman wants a man to touch her, is that assault if the man touches her?

But you didn't agree in this previous statement, since you said a woman who wants groping, but doesn't give consent, is not assaulted if groped.

You're not very good at this, sexist. I suggest you go back under that bed you're probably already occupying...:)

To all concerned, I am ignoring John Harris from this moment forth.

We all remember our friend who was unfairly banned for "being a Nazi", even though he was no Nazi:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/57934#Post_57934 — Agustino

As much as it brings joy to my heart to be reminded of those events, we're not here to talk about vacuumbrain or whatever the Nazi sympathizer's name was. Any more off-topic stuff will be deleted.



I've been getting a lot of PMs lately so I've had to prioritize. If you want to open a separate discussion, feel free.

And the women in your scenario never said yes, so you're moving the goalposts again. You keep showing how wrong you were.
— John Harris
But theoretically, it is by her desire, not by her words.
— Agustino

And here again, Agustino blames the woman's desire and says it is enough to merit unsolicited groping.

What is it that you want? Seriously. Bitter?

One cannot just treat words as a permission slip. You have to be considering what another person thinks and wants. — TheWillowOfDarkness

And what if they say "no"? Can we just treat the words as a rejection, or do we have to consider what they think and want, and plough ahead if we think they secretly desire it?

Is it a case of erring on the side of caution, where "no" means no but "yes" doesn't always mean "yes"?

Or so you just desire to experience the feeling of being right?

And what if they say "no"? Can we just treat the words as a rejection, or do we have to consider what they think and want, and plough ahead if we think they secretly want it? — Michael

As I said, in practice you're best off - generally - to listen to the words, especially if they're a no. But this doesn't mean that the words are where consent is coming from.

↪John Harris What is it that you want? Seriously. Bitter?

When you start an engagement with that hostile tone, it's clear the only bitter one is you.

Anyway Michael. We started by discussing why you think that sentence from my essay is sexist. Do you think I've done a good job to explain to you how that sentence fits in the rest of the essay which is a critique of our hypocrisy and values?

↪John Harris Or so you just desire to experience the feeling of being right?

Why are you asking these confrontational questions? Do you have sexist views you feel are being threatened?

You haven't been causing problems lately as far as I know. If you could just acknowledge your past comments have caused offence, and show a bit more restraint in future, we could move on. We don't have many female members here and we're not going to if they feel the environment is not conducive to their presence. Also, the guidelines are the guidelines.

Whatever. I understand why agustino(whom I more often than not disagree with) wants to ignore you. Answer the questions. What is your goal, what do you want to achieve with all this?

As I said, in practice you're best off - generally - to listen to the words, especially if they're a no. But this doesn't mean that the words are where consent is coming from.

This is a standard defense rapists and sexual assailants use to justify rape or assault of those who havent given verbal consent. Unbelievable.