I think they would argue that the personality of the designer is an extrapolation of the designers we know and there is some basis for assuming a universe designer would prefer non-boring universes. If all you knew was that there was a universe designer, and you were shown this universe, would you be surprised by it? Not surprised at the particulars (e.g., the moon is that exact size and Saturn is exactly X amount of miles from the sun), but rather surprised the universe the designer designed is full of complexity and life? — RogueAI

That is exactly why I don't claim to know anything about the hypothetical designer of the universe. As an agnostic, and Bible unbeliever, I have no direct revelation from God, and no personal relationship. But I do have professional training and experience as a designer (architect). So I feel that I know something about how design works : from immaterial idea (concept) to material instantiation (something that did not exist before).

For example, if the product of design is "full of complexity and life", I must assume that the designer intended to create that kind of product/result/embodiment. Also, the designer must have the potential (creative & constructive power) for such characteristics. A human designer can have one of many personality types. But the Cause of a whole universe must have the potential for all possible types. Not just the tyrannical ruler or loving father personalities. :nerd:

the Ontological contingency of the whole world --- something from nothing --- would be a priori instead of a posteriori. — Gnomon

Are you suggesting the world came from nothing? This would entail a temporally prior state of nothingness, which is metaphysically impossible.

I suggested that there was a first cause - an initial state, that exists uncaused. It didn't come from anything, because that would imply it was caused. If you believe the world itself is contingent, then how do you account for the contingency, ontologically? I argued that the first cause/initial state must be necessary, specifically because it's existence is not contingent upon anything.

Your probability estimate*2 would be plausible if the universe was eternal and exists (just happens to be) without any reason or cause — Gnomon

My probability estimate is based on a finite past with a large number of contingent events having occurred during the course of its existence, due to quantum indeterminacy. Quantum collapse is statistical - there is a finite probability associated with the outcome of each collapse, and it is therefore calculable, in principle - actual numerical probability applies.

An initial state implies:

• a finite past, not an eternal one,
• that time commences from the initial state forward.
• there is no state of affairs that precedes the initial state

You said "first cause does not entail a being that acts with intentionality". That's true, the Big Bang could have been a cosmically destructive explosion, instead of the creative beginning of a world of living and thinking creatures. But the improbability of accidental existence of a 14billion-year-train-wreck, which produces sentient beings who act with intention, does imply an intentional act of creation. — Gnomon

You're assuming the Big Bang was the beginning of material reality. I don't think many cosmologists would agree with you on that. We simply don't know what preceded it. I believe the past is finite for philosophical reasons: it would imply a completed process of infinitely many, temporally sequenced steps.

"Accidental" existence? I indicated that the initial state (whatever it may be, and that includes a creator) exists as brute fact. As I showed, it's not contingent because there is nothing prior to account for (F or ~F) - where F is the first cause/initial state. Does your definition of "accident" allow for "accidents" that are metaphysically necessary? Traditionally, the term has been considered to imply contingency.

But the improbability of accidental existence of a 14billion-year-train-wreck, which produces sentient beings who act with intention, does imply an intentional act of creation. :smile: — Gnomon

So...you think it MORE probable that a intentional being (with enormous power and an enormously complex mind) that happens to exist uncaused is MORE probable than the gradual development of beings with small power and limited intellect over the course of billions of years in an enormous universe! (fully consistent with entropy, as described in statistical thermodynamics)?

You seem to treat intelligent life as a design objective, rather than simply a consequence of the way the world happens to be. This is the issue I was referencing when I suggested you were taking a restrospective view of the current state of the universe, and noting the enormous number of low probability events along the way to our existence. Reminds me of a quote of John Earman's":

“Imagine, if you will, the wonderment of a species of mud worms who discover that if the constant of thermometric conductivity of mud were different by a small percentage they would not be able to survive.”

Were mud different, mud worms would not exist. So what? Were the universe different, we wouldn't exist. So what?

Here's a relevant quote from Richard Feynman:

“You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight... I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!”

The point is, the mere fact that something improbable has occurred is not at all remarkable. It would be worth investigating only if it were a statistical anomaly. But our world is no more, and no less, likely than any other. It happens to have intelligent beings in it, but alternative worlds that might otherwise have come into existence would have had other sorts of things in it that would be improbable.

So their case is hopeless, i think. It depends upon them mistakenly thinking they're entitled to stack the deck in their favour by inferring personality traits that their only evidence for would be based - queston beggingly - on the assumption that this is the approximately the kind of world an intelligence would design. — Clearbury

Usually the design proponent likens the designer to an all-powerful, omnibenevolent god, who would prefer universes with life in it, but that has problems too when you think about all the suffering that goes on in the natural world.

Still, like I said earlier. Suppose all you know is that a universe designer exists and you're presented with a universe that lasts a trillionth of a second before it collapses in on itself. Out of all the designs it could have come up with, it settled on that one? I would be surprised. Wouldn't you?

Are you suggesting the world came from nothing? This would entail a temporally prior state of nothingness, which is metaphysically impossible. — Relativist

No. Just the opposite. I agree that such a notion is "metaphysically impossible". Lawrence Krauss wrote a book named A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing. But, his "nothing" turned out to be a strange sort of something : a fluctuating quantum field, complete with governing laws and empowering energy. So, his "nothing" simply meant "no gods".

And yet, his powerful & lawful mathematical field has most of the characteristics of a First Cause, including Reason in the form of mathematical logic, but excepting Intention in the form of an idea to be implemented. Do you act with Intention? If so, how do you think that ability to foresee the future emerged from nothing but random fluctuations? :nerd:

You're assuming the Big Bang was the beginning of material reality. I don't think many cosmologists would agree with you on that. We simply don't know what preceded it. I believe the past is finite for philosophical reasons: it would imply a completed process of infinitely many, temporally sequenced steps — Relativist

Apparently, since you "don't know" the cause of the beginning, the "speculative" Multiverse hypothesis --- "infinitely many, temporally sequenced steps" --- must be just an article of faith for you. I agree that "we don't know what preceded" the Big Bang. So, any preternatural Cause we might postulate is a shot in the dark. That's why I am not a Theist or a Multiversist, but an Agnostic speculating philosopher.

Yet, lack of hard evidence has never deterred philosophers from reasoning about the unknowable. Therefore, just as astronomers reasoned backwards from current conditions to guess at the original state of the cosmos, I observe the world 14B years after the Big Pop, and reason back to the logically necessary conditions required to explode a near-infinite universe into being. One of those conditions is the Potential for Life & Mind must have preceded the Bang. :wink:

The multiverse is a speculative idea that's not considered proven, and there's no direct evidence that it exists. ___Google AI overview

Although some scientists have analyzed data in search of evidence for other universes, no statistically significant evidence has been found. Critics argue that the multiverse concept lacks testability and falsifiability, which are essential for scientific inquiry, and that it raises unresolved metaphysical issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

So...you think it MORE probable that a intentional being (with enormous power and an enormously complex mind) that happens to exist uncaused is MORE probable than the gradual development of beings with small power and limited intellect over the course of billions of years in an enormous universe! (fully consistent with entropy, as described in statistical thermodynamics)? — Relativist

Yes. We no longer debate the evidence for "gradual development", just take it for granted. What we do debate is how that process began : by accident or by design? If you don't see evidence of Design in the world, then your definition of "design" may be different from mine. In college, I participated in a Design by Accident exercise, and the lesson learned was that the result of accidents is Chaos instead of Cosmos.

Please note that I make no assertions about a "complex mind". Instead, the world-causing mind is assumed to be Simple in the sense of unitary, yet with enormous Potential. The complexity of our universe came into existence when infinite Potential transformed into finite Actual in an "enormous" act of Creation. Prior to the Bang, Infinity/Eternity is a simple all-inclusive concept implying "all things possible".

Moreover, it is obvious that the Cause of the Big Bang possessed "enormous power". Regarding the notion of "uncaused first cause", perhaps we should just say "eternal Cause". Which would apply to a God or a Multiverse. If you prefer to think that random rolling of dice produced our lawful and orderly world, I can't prove otherwise. But you can't prove that the initial conditions (like computer settings) just happened without intention. That's a belief, not a fact. :smile:

The point is, the mere fact that something improbable has occurred is not at all remarkable. It would be worth investigating only if it were a statistical anomaly. — Relativist

I'm not competent to judge the statistical improbability of a universe popping into existence, from who knows where or when or how. But if anyone is qualified, perhaps Nobel laureate Roger Penrose is the guy. In a previous reply to Relativist, I noted :
Obviously, Roger Penrose's interest has been piqued by the improbability of our existence. So, he has taken the time to put a number on that near impossibility. If the calculated odds of 10^10^100 to 1 do not sound like a miracle to you, then you may be impervious to philosophical curiosity. :cool:

Apparently, since you "don't know" the cause of the beginning, the "speculative" Multiverse hypothesis --- "infinitely many, temporally sequenced steps" --- must be just an article of faith for you — Gnomon

Nope. There may, or may not, be a multiverse. Either way, it has no relevance to anything I've said. Perhaps you misunderstood my use of the term "this universe". I just meant the actual universe, as opposed to any non-actual, possible universes (where the possibilities are due to the instances of quantum indeterminacy in our history).

Do you act with Intention? If so, how do you think that ability to foresee the future emerged from nothing but random fluctuations? — Gnomon

Yes, of course. We form intentions and act upon them. This ability emerged through evolution- there's clearly a survival value.

Yes. We no longer debate the evidence for "gradual development", just take it for granted. What we do debate is how that process began : by accident or by design? If you don't see evidence of Design in the world, then your definition of "design" may be different from mine. In college, I participated in a Design by Accident exercise, and the lesson learned was that the result of accidents is Chaos instead of Cosmos. — Gnomon

A Japanese Cosmologist has estimated the probability that a self-replicating molecule could have formed by pure chance. See this. The probability is low in any given instance, but the larger the universe is, the more likely it would occur at least once. And this is a worst case scenario. This is sufficient to start evolution.

The development of complexity over time is consistent with statistical thermodynamics. See this.

I make no assertions about a "complex mind". Instead, the world-causing mind is assumed to be Simple in the sense of unitary, yet with enormous Potential. — Gnomon

How could a mind intentionally create a universe that would lead to life, unless it could somehow figure out how the universe would evolve? This seems to require considerable knowledge. How could it even work things out in the absence of time?
Theist philosophers claim "God" has magical knowledge (i.e. omniscience; knowledge that wasn't developed but just exists). That is at least coherent. How do you account for your "world-causing mind" having the ability to design a complex universe that will produce life over the course of billions of years? Did it acquire knowledge by trial and error, and reasoning?

Moreover, it is obvious that the Cause of the Big Bang possessed "enormous power". Regarding the notion of "uncaused first cause", perhaps we should just say "eternal Cause". Which would apply to a God or a Multiverse. — Gnomon

Define "power". Certainly, the inflationary period was a low entropy/high energy state.

No, I don't agree the first cause is/was eternal. As I said, I believe the past finite. But even if you define "eternal" as existing at all points of time, it doesn't imply the first cause fits that, because the first cause was a specific statements of affairs that at its initial conditions. But if we set aside the temporal evolution of reality, we could perhaps say that reality (as a whole) is eternal (existing at all times).

If you prefer to think that random rolling of dice produced our lawful and orderly world, I can't prove otherwise. But you can't prove that the initial conditions (like computer settings) just happened without intention.

Neither position can be proved deductively, but it's reasonable to draw an inference to best explanation.

We know that complexity can arise from simpler conditions (again, see this).

We also have empirical evidence that minds are dependent on the physical: memories are lost due to disease and trauma. Knowledge is an organized set of memories, memories that are developed over time.

The alternative depends on ad hoc assumptions: an unembodied mind is metaphysically possible; that knowledge needn't be physically encoded nor caused/developed over time. Of course, all of these things are logically possible, so faith in such things isn't vulnerable to being disproven. But if you think this is somehow a better explanation, then please make the case.

I'm not competent to judge the statistical improbability of a universe popping into existence, — Gnomon

I hope you don't rely on this false dichotomy to make your case. As discussed before, finite past does not entail "popping into existence". If you agree the past is finite, then you should agree that the initial state exists as necessary brute fact (unless you make some addition hoc assumption that exempts a "god" from being a brute fact). The question is: which is the more plausible brute fact?

Obviously, Roger Penrose's interest has been piqued by the improbability of our existence. So, he has taken the time to put a number on that near impossibility. If the calculated odds of 10^10^100 to 1 do not sound like a miracle to you, then you may be impervious to philosophical curiosity. :cool: — Gnomon

Are you making an argument from non-aurhority? Penrose is a physicist, not a metaphysician. He seems to be treating life as as objectively special, which strikes me as chauvinism. Life, especially intelligent life, is important to us. That doesn't imply it is objectively important. Objectively, it is a type of object. This universe (the one that we know exists) happens to have produced types of objects that we label as "living". You and Penrose seem to be treating this type of object in a privileged way. I get it, that this is the nature of religion: that we are special to God.

I acknowledge it's possibly true - but arguments such as Penrose, or proponents of the Fine Tuning Argument, tend to overlook that their arguments depend on the (Theistic) premise that we are something more than a type of thing. If there is no God, who wished to create intelligent beings, then we are not objectively special. So to assume we're objectively special is what entails a God. Fine-tuning arguments add no support to the position.

Usually the design proponent likens the designer to an all-powerful, omnibenevolent god, who would prefer universes with life in it, but that has problems too when you think about all the suffering that goes on in the natural world.

Still, like I said earlier. Suppose all you know is that a universe designer exists and you're presented with a universe that lasts a trillionth of a second before it collapses in on itself. Out of all the designs it could have come up with, it settled on that one? I would be surprised. Wouldn't you? — RogueAI

The typical "omnibenevolent" designer proposal would be a Straw Man argument on this thread. The OP indicates that Stephen Meyer carefully avoids advocating the "omnibenevolent" bible-god, and focuses his attention on the scientific evidence for an intelligent First Cause.

Your second point is more to the point, except that it assumes the Designer created a Big Bang, which like fourth of July fireworks explodes into a puff of dust*1 full of suffering for sentient beings. Sounds like the human rocket scientists whose trial runs self-destruct after a few seconds.

Yet, that's not what the science says happened. Instead, the ongoing creation event was a sudden expansion of cosmic Potential from a mathematical Singularity seed (computer operating system) into a self-sustaining (14B years) Evolution of novel Variations (mutations ; options) to be naturally Selected based on criteria in the Initial Conditions (preset values for a computer program). De-selection might involve suffering for variables that don't pass the fitness filter. Would you be surprised if you observed such an unlikely event from your privileged position as a philosopher in the nothingness of pre-space? :nerd:

PS___ If you were raised to believe in an omni-benevolent God, as I was, you might be disappointed to go out into the real world, and discover that it's not all benevolence & blessings. My philosophical First Cause is intelligent & creative, and pragmatic, but not loving. Something like the Vulcans of Star Trek.

*1. God's Debris : A Thought Experiment - Scott Adams
https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Debris-Experiment-Scott-Adams/dp/0740747878

ROCKET SCIENCE


COSMIC DESIGNER


COSMIC EVOLUTION

How do you account for your "world-causing mind" having the ability to design a complex universe that will produce life over the course of billions of years? Did it acquire knowledge by trial and error, and reasoning? — Relativist

The default religious answer is Omniscience. But I don't pontificate beyond the bare facts of an inexplicable beginning. Everything else is amateur speculation. And your guess is as good as mine. But, of course, I prefer mine.

The First Cause is a philosophical principle, not a religious deity. But, if you want to conjecture : perhaps an eternal Being passes the timelessness by creating model worlds and learning from failures how to make a world that lasts over 14B sol-cycles.

I don't post on this forum just to parrot scientific facts from "experts". The philosophical fun is in conjecturing beyond what meets the eye, by means of informed inference : reasoning. :smile:

The development of complexity over time is consistent with statistical thermodynamics. See this. — Relativist

I agree. But only if you include in the statistical analysis a complementary principle (law?) to counteract the destructive effects associated with Entropy. My name for that constructive principle is Enformy. :nerd:

Enformy :
In the Enformationism theory, Enformy is a hypothetical, holistic, metaphysical, natural trend or force, that counteracts Entropy & Randomness to produce Complexity & Progress. [ see post 63 for graph ]
1. I'm not aware of any "supernatural force" in the world. But my Enformationism theory postulates that there is a meta-physical force behind Time's Arrow and the positive progress of evolution. Just as Entropy is sometimes referred to as a "force" causing energy to dissipate (negative effect), Enformy is the antithesis, which causes energy to agglomerate (additive effect).
2. Of course, neither of those phenomena is a physical Force, or a direct Cause, in the usual sense. But the term "force" is applied to such holistic causes as a metaphor drawn from our experience with physics.
3. "Entropy" and "Enformy" are scientific/technical terms that are equivalent to the religious/moralistic terms "Evil" and "Good". So, while those forces are completely natural, the ultimate source of the power behind them may be preternatural, in the sense that the First Cause logically existed before the Big Bang.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

How do you account for your "world-causing mind" having the ability to design a complex universe that will produce life over the course of billions of years? Did it acquire knowledge by trial and error, and reasoning?
— Relativist
The default religious answer is Omniscience. But I don't pontificate beyond the bare facts of an inexplicable beginning. Everything else is amateur speculation. And your guess is as good as mine. But, of course, I prefer mine. — Gnomon

Your speculation referred to a "world-causing mind", and you also suggested it has intentionality. Why think this unknown state of affairs is a mind and that it acts intentionally? Labelling it "mind" suggests it has some minimum set of properties common to all minds what are these?

The development of complexity over time is consistent with statistical thermodynamics. See this.
— Relativist
I agree. But only if you include in the statistical analysis a complementary principle (law?) to counteract the destructive effects associated with Entropy. My name for that constructive principle is Enformy. :nerd: — Gnomon

Your "enformy" is based on the false premise that entropy is a measure of disorder. From the paper I linked:

"Misinterpretations of entropy and conflation with additional misunderstandings of the second law of thermodynamics are ubiquitous among scientists and non-scientists alike and have been used by creationists as the basis of unfounded arguments against evolutionary theory. Entropy is not disorder or chaos or complexity or progress towards those states. Entropy is a metric, a measure of the number of different ways that a set of objects can be arranged."

I don't see how you're addressing my criticism. Yes, if we have already established that this world is the product of an intelligence, then one can infer from its character certain dispositions on the part of the designer.

But whether the world is a product of intelligent design is precisely what is at issue. You can't just assume it and then make inferences from it.

So we must start out by asking the question 'is this world more likely a product of intelligent design or chance'? Well, we are not allowed to start out by assuming a designer with a particular character. So, do to the calculation we must consider how many different plans and intentiosn a designer may have. And there's the problem: there are going to be a potential infinite number. Certainly the odds of there being a designer who wished to create a world such as this are going to be everybit as long as the odds that a world such as this arose by chance. And given that the latter is a simpler thesis than the former - it doesn't assume a designer - then the chance thesis is the more reasonable one, other things being equal.

Lawrence Krauss wrote a book named A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing. But, his "nothing" turned out to be a strange sort of something : a fluctuating quantum field, complete with governing laws and empowering energy. So, his "nothing" simply meant "no gods". — Gnomon

You might be interested to know that this book got a savage review in the New York Times from David Albert, who is a professor of physics and expert in interpretations of quantum physics:

The particular, eternally persisting, elementary physical stuff of the world, according to the standard presentations of relativistic quantum field theories, consists (unsurprisingly) of relativistic quantum fields. And the fundamental laws of this theory take the form of rules concerning which arrangements of those fields are physically possible and which aren’t, and rules connecting the arrangements of those fields at later times to their arrangements at earlier times, and so on — and they have nothing whatsoever to say on the subject of where those fields came from, or of why the world should have consisted of the particular kinds of fields it does, or of why it should have consisted of fields at all, or of why there should have been a world in the first place. Period. Case closed. End of story. — David Albert

Story goes that Krauss reacted furiously to this review and kicked up a huge stink. (This is all 12 years ago mind you.) In the end, Daniel Dennett had to take him aside and tell him to cool it.

Krauss may be a good science writer and communicator, but he's an absolutely crap philosopher as far as many are concerned.

So we must start out by asking the question 'is this world more likely a product of intelligent design or chance'? Well, we are not allowed to start out by assuming a designer with a particular character. So, [to do] the calculation we must consider how many different plans and intentiosn a designer may have. And there's the problem: there are going to be a potential infinite number. Certainly the odds of there being a designer who wished to create a world such as this are going to be everybit as long as the odds that a world such as this arose by chance. And given that the latter is a simpler thesis than the former - it doesn't assume a designer - then the chance thesis is the more reasonable one, other things being equal. — Clearbury

:clap: :100:

IME, woo-woo warriors like @Gnomon can't grok parsimony in either science or philosophy.

Certainly the odds of there being a designer who wished to create a world such as this are going to be every bit as long as the odds that a world such as this arose by chance. — Clearbury

I don't think of God as being like a kind of super-engineer, a cosmic designer who literally oversees all the details of the cellular biology and organic life. Classical theism - not the beliefs of modern-day evangelicals on the whole - says that God is 'simple' (meaning not composed of parts) - not something which is more complex than the Universe that He has created.

The argument that I think is persuasive, at least to me, is the version of the cosmological anthropic argument that stresses the very small numbers of constants that are required to have very specific properties, in order for complex matter of any kind to form. 'Just Six Numbers' is the title of a book on that. Mind you, that book is not an 'argument from design' and its author stays mum on whether he believes in God, presenting that as one among other hypotheses. But the idea that all of what exists is dependent upon a very small number of specific constraints seems more in line with the idea of divine simplicity, than examination of the massive complexity of life and the universe.

As to the argument that the fundamental constraints are 'brute fact', and the existence of anything is dumb luck, I wonder if that amounts to any kind of explanation at all.

I say this, because the idea of God as a designer or super-engineer is wildly mistaken even for those who don't believe in any kind of higher power. I think it arises from attempting to scale up a naturalistic understanding to a cosmic scale, but it's not informed by any kind of insight into the who or what of God.

That said, Stephen Meyer's 'scientific intelligent design' is subject to criticism by other Christians, as I've already noted upthread, on similar grounds (e.g. here and here). For a popular-level insight into classical theism, have a read of God does not Exist, by Pierre Whalon (and no, it's not atheist polemics) and also He Is Who He Is, a review of a book by David Bentley Hart. These might, at least, make it a little clearer what the God is that we don't believe in.

Chat GPT is awesome for helping with Bayes Theorem. What do you guys think?

Here’s a summary of your reasoning and calculations:

The Question: Does the existence of a life-permitting universe make the existence of a universe designer (a god who values order, complexity, and life) probable?

Hypotheses and Background Knowledge:

H: A universe designer exists, specifically a god valuing order, complexity, and life.
¬H: No universe designer exists.
Background knowledge k: There is no multiverse.

P(H)=0.3: You started with a 30% prior probability of such a designer existing.
P(E∣H)=0.99: A god valuing life and complexity is highly likely to create a life-permitting universe.
P(E∣¬H)=0.0001: Without a designer, the probability of a life-permitting universe is astronomically low given no multiverse.

Bayes' Theorem:
Using the formula:
P(H∣E)= P(E∣H)⋅P(H) / P(E)

where P (E) = P(E∣H)⋅P(H)+P(E∣¬H)⋅P(¬H)

Result:

The posterior probability of P(H∣E), the probability of a universe designer given the existence of a life-permitting universe, is approximately 0.9998 (or 99.98%).

Conclusion:
Based on your assumptions, the existence of a life-permitting universe strongly supports the existence of a universe designer with the specified attributes.

Your speculation referred to a "world-causing mind", and you also suggested it has intentionality. Why think this unknown state of affairs is a mind and that it acts intentionally? Labelling it "mind" suggests it has some minimum set of properties common to all minds what are these? — Relativist

Yes. I have concluded that this material world had a mental origin. That inference is based primarily on the ubiquitous role of Information in the world. I won't attempt to justify that conditional (non-faith) belief in this thread. But it has been explained step by step in the Enformationism thesis. The bottom line is that Information is both mental and causal*1. It's found in human minds in the form of Ideas, and it operates in the material world in the form of Energy. So, I have deduced that the Source of every thing and every action in this world necessarily had properties in common with both Minds and Energy. So, depending on the context, I label that unidentified Source the Enformer, or the Programmer, or the First Cause.

At the beginning of Philosophy, Plato called the universal principle of the world Logos, to indicate that rational relationships are the structure of reality & mentality & mathematics. Aristotle called the origin of all change in the world Prime Mover, which we would today refer to as Energy. With the exception of those I have dialoged with, few posters on this forum are aware that physicists have equated Energy with Information*2. If you don't believe me, you can Google it.

The book in the OP does not make that kind of argument. But it does use beaucoup scientific "facts" to define the logically necessary properties of the Cause of the Big Bang. The author identifies that Cause with his biblical God, but for unstated scriptural reasons, not scientific theories. So, if you ignore the scriptures in the background, what you have left is what Blaise Pascal sarcastically labeled "the god of the philosophers" as opposed to the god of theologians. It's also not the god of pragmatic scientists. So the scientific evidence must be interpreted philosophically, in order to explain what existed before the beginning of the material world : metaphorically, what's north of the north pole. :smile:

*1. Here's an abbreviated sample from the thesis :

From Form to Energy to Matter to Mind to Self :
One thing that all of these examples of leading-edge science have in common is a prominent role for Information. Not the mundane stuff you get on Google, but the essential stuff as defined by Claude Shannon. In his analysis of communication, he saw that data flows in a manner similar to electricity in wires. Meaningful information is equivalent to potent Energy as opposed to depleted Entropy. Yet in a larger context, Information also has the ability to give meaningful or useful or valuable form or shape to some raw, unformed material. Information is full of potential as opposed to the emptiness of Entropy.

Inspired by that potent metaphor, along with some insights from Quantum Theory, I have concluded that Energy actually consists of Elemental Information. On the most basic levels, such as laws of physics, that invisible “in-formation” is equivalent to the numerical relationships we call mathematics. According to my developing thesis of Enformationism , as we zoom our perspective from micro (smallest) to macro (human scale) to cosmic (largest), the information we find becomes more and more condensed, compressed, and solid, and then it begins to fade away back into the same ethereal stuff it began from.

This is an essential part of the cycle of evolution: the Ourobouros (snake biting tail) information cycle---what goes around, comes around. In other words, evolution begins and ends as information. In the process, this proto-energy is neither created nor destroyed, but only changes form–-like Proteus, the shape-shifting sea-god of the ancient Greeks.
https://enformationism.info/enformationism.info/page5.html

*2. Information is Energy :
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-658-40862-6

I don't see how that will affect the argument.

If the odds, given certain background assumptions, of this world arising by chance are 1 in a million, or one in 10 billion trillion, the point is that those are also the odds that there would be a person who happened to want to create a universe such as this in that manner (in fact, the odds of that are longer given that they'd also have to have the ability to create it).

Anything chance can do, an intelligence can do. And anything an intelligence can do, chance can do. But chance is a simpler explanation, and so it wins by default. This is partly why I think design arguments are hopeless. The current rash depend upon people being impressed by long odds (even though no matter how long they may be, the argument is going to fail)

….a person who happened to want to create a universe…. — Clearbury

:roll:

Yes. If you start out with an idea about this person's personality and desires, then you've rigged things.

So, you have to ask 'what are the odds that there would exist a person who wanted to create a universe such as this and in this manner - whatever that turns out to be - and had the ability to do so?' And to figure that our, you have to consider all the various possible ways a person could be and possible abilities a person may have. The odds are going to turn out to be everybit as large as the odds of teh universe arising by chance processes

In other words, the improbability that 'an uncreated, transcendent creator of universes' exists (e.g. Plato, Aquinas) is, at minimum, equal to the improbability that 'an uncreated, autopoietic universe' exists (e.g. Epicurus, Spinoza); however, the latter is more parsimonious (i.e. has fewer inexplicable terms/assumptions) than the former.

@Gnomon @Wayfarer @RogueAI

But whether the world is a product of intelligent design is precisely what is at issue. You can't just assume it and then make inferences from it. — Clearbury

I agree. In my thesis, I begin with the "assumption" that the world is as defined by Physics : a dynamic cosmos*1 of Matter, Energy, and Laws. But Einstein equated Matter with Energy. More recently, the Mass-Energy-Information equivalence principle of physicists Melvin Vopson and Rolf Landauer condensed three physical principles into one : Information --- the power to inform ; to give form to the formless ; to create meaning in a mind.

Moreover, the third factor of physics is Law : organizing & governing principles that are most often expressed in terms of abstract Mathematical relationships : Logic. Laws are also defined metaphorically as-if they are the intention of a powerful rule-maker. Yet in practice they are simply regularities that allow a society or a world to operate smoothly & efficiently, and in conformance to the Will of the ruling authority.

Combine that multi-purpose physical power with the psychological factor of meaningful/useful Information, and you can begin to see the influence of something like a human mind : intelligent and wilful. If you doubt that the human mind has causal powers, just look at something like the Birj Khalifa tower in Dubai. Can you imagine something that impressive occurring by accident, or by natural processes, or without confidence in the causal power of a human idea : tallest building in the world? Have you ever seen a mountain with elevators and air conditioning?

So physics has reduced three principles down to one : Information*2 --- Causation & Meaning & Logic. In my thesis I call it EnFormAction*3. In your experience, where can you find all three of those factors in one place? Hint : the human mind. If you don't see any signs of Causation, Meaning and Organization in the world, then Science and Intelligent Design are not for you. :smile:


*1. Cosmos :
Usage of the word cosmos implies viewing the universe as a complex and orderly system or entity.
The cosmos is studied in cosmology – a broad discipline covering scientific, religious or philosophical aspects of the cosmos and its nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos

*2. What is Information?
what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things.
___Oxford Dictionary
Note --- The arrangement and sequence of things is what we call Order or Organization.

*3. EnFormAction :
# Metaphorically, it's the Will-power of G*D, which is the First Cause of everything in creation. Aquinas called the Omnipotence of God the "Primary Cause", so EFA is the general cause of every-thing in the world. Energy, Matter, Gravity, Life, Mind are secondary creative causes, each with limited application.
# All are also forms of Information, the "difference that makes a difference". It works by directing causation from negative to positive, cold to hot, ignorance to knowledge. That's the basis of mathematical ratios (Greek "Logos", Latin "Ratio" = reason). A : B :: C : D. By interpreting those ratios we get meaning and reasons.
# The concept of a river of causation running through the world in various streams has been interpreted in materialistic terms as Momentum, Impetus, Force, Energy, etc, and in spiritualistic idioms as Will, Love, Conatus, and so forth. EnFormAction is all of those.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
Note --- Philosophically, causal-controlling-constructive EFA can be favorably compared to Schopenhauer's Will : "a blind, unconscious, aimless striving devoid of knowledge". How does a blind, unconscious, aimless pig find an acorn? Seldom.

BURJ KHALIFA

You might be interested to know that this book got a savage review in the New York Times from David Albert, who is a professor of physics and expert in interpretations of quantum physics: — Wayfarer

Yes. Meyer's book discusses such alternative Something From Nothing theories in his chapter : The Cosmological Information Problem. He says Krauss' book "attempted to describe how material particles emerged from preexisting energy-rich fields in a preexisting space" : the hypothetical Quantum Foam*1. Meyer also notes that physicist Alexander Vilenkin "showed a keen sense of the paradoxical or even contrary aspects of invoking a mathematical equation developed in a human mind as the cause of an actual universe". Talk about violations of Parsimony! Which is simpler : a preternatural creative quantum Field (theoretical framework in a human mind) or an eternal creative Intellect (analogous to a human mind)? :wink:

PS___ Meyer goes on to ask "how can a mathematical equation create an actual physical universe?" Then, he quotes Stephen Hawking, who asked "what is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?"


*1. "Nothing" turns out to be "Quantum Foam" with the laws of Quantum Mechanics already built in.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cosmology/comments/1esl10/can_someone_explain_lawrence_krauss_a_universe/

I disagree with almost everything you said, and you haven't really refuted anything I said, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing.

↪Gnomon
I disagree with almost everything you said, and you haven't really refuted anything I said, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing. — Relativist

Thanks for sharing your ideas, and for not responding to my ideas with political put-downs as some do, when faced with belief-challenging concepts of the world. I had no intention of "refuting" anything you said. Instead, this thread is intended to present some ideas from a book by a theist, whose arguments are also valid for Deism : a non-religious philosophical worldview.

Even though it differs from traditional Theism in denial of real-world miracles, Deism retains the necessity for an ideal Mind to create the Real world. Apparently, even the ancient philosophical notion of a First Cause or Prime Mover principle is contrary to your worldview. That's OK, we both have opinions about notions that are unprovable. But how we arrive at those beliefs may vary. :smile:

Your speculation referred to a "world-causing mind", and you also suggested it has intentionality. — Relativist

That is true, yet my "speculation" is based on Science & Philosophy instead of Religion. For example, I accept the Big Bang theory (BBT) --- which is the "most accepted" theory*1 of how the expanding universe began --- and not the Genesis account of creation. But BBT was a shock to some scientists, including Einstein, because their default worldview was that the physical universe was eternal and deterministic. Yet, the sudden ex nihilo appearance of something-from-nothing sounded too much like the Genesis account of Creation. And the Uncertainty of quantum physics undermined the deterministic Newtonian foundation of 19th century science. So, some 20th century scientists began to construct alternative explanations for the otherwise inexplicable existence of an evolving dynamic cosmos, but characterized by Randomness and Entropy instead of Intention and Creativity.

In Stephen Meyer's book, introduced in the OP, he discussed what he labeled as The Cosmological Information Problem. One example is the Hawking-Hartle "no boundary" proposal for how the universe could pop into existence randomly and without any god-like intention. They followed Alexander Vilenkin's suggestion of a quantum basis for the otherwise inexplicable Big Bang. But it assumed the a priori existence of a Universal Quantum Field, complete with god-like logical mathematics & limiting laws. Ironically, the quantum realm has been determined to be fundamentally indeterminate and uncertain.

Stephen Hawking and James Hartle manipulated the Wheeler-DeWitt equation, "based on the use of canonical quantization rules", to calculate the Universal Wave-Function in order to demonstrate how a new universe could be created from random fluctuations of a hypothetical eternal quantum field in a supernatural "superspace". In order to limit the calculation to a world like the one we actually experience though, they arbitrarily pre-set some initial conditions. Ironically, in doing so, they imposed human Intentions on the calculation. As Meyer put it, "the quantum cosmologists are thus like the bakers who allege they have baked a cake before they had the ingredients to do so". So, you could say that they were playing the role of a Designing god. Meyer summarizes, "Hawking and Hartle envision quantum tunneling as an event that converts a preexisting closed universe into a continually expanding universe".

Do you have a better idea --- sans intention --- to explain the existence of our spacetime universe, gradually being deconstructed by Entropy, yet populated by highly-evolved beings who question their origins? Do you take your worldview on faith, or have you done the math? :nerd:

PS___ In a previous post you said a First Cause is plausible, but not an intelligent or logical FC like Plato's Logos. Presumably just dumb matter. How then do you explain the existence of Living & Intelligent beings in the real world? Isn't "brute fact" just a cop-out on a philosophy forum? That's the crux of Chalmers' "hard problem". Material science typically stops at the "boundary" of the Big Bang. But some scientists, such as Hawking, feel philosophically compelled to postulate "no boundaries" in order to legitimize their forays into quantum "speculation" and conjecture.


*1. Yes, the Big Bang theory is widely considered the most accepted theory explaining the origin of the universe, with a vast majority of scientists supporting it based on substantial evidence like the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB) and the observation of an expanding universe.
___Google AI overview

*2. Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning
A recent challenge to Stephen Hawking’s biggest idea — about how the universe might have come from nothing — has cosmologists choosing sides.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicists-debate-hawkings-idea-that-the-universe-had-no-beginning-20190606/

Moreover, the third factor of physics is Law : organizing & governing principles that are most often expressed in terms of abstract Mathematical relationships : Logic. Laws are also defined metaphorically as-if they are the intention of a powerful rule-maker. Yet in practice they are simply regularities that allow a society or a world to operate smoothly & efficiently, and in conformance to the Will of the ruling authority. — gnomon

The regularities of the laws of nature are, as you seem to imply, often seen as laws like tax laws that are imposed by an external agent but in reality the law and nature are the same thing. The scientific laws of nature are not imposed on nature, they are nature. But the question remains; even if there are no laws external to the things that look like they are obeying laws, why does nature produce such finely balanced sublime structures? Why is nature so sophisticated? So the question concerning a God-like law maker is rephrased as a question concerning a God-like nature maker. Why does nature produce the sublime?

Why does nature produce the sublime? — EnPassant

Well said, and a very easy question to loose sight of.

The scientific laws of nature are not imposed on nature, they are nature. — EnPassant

Actually, those natural laws are Nature as interpreted by law-abiding humans. As Bohr noted, "What we observe is never nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." So, as usual we humans see ourselves reflected in the mirror of the world. And we call that mirror by various names, but the most general is simply G*D. Spinoza hedged his bets by labeling his pantheistic deity as Deus sive Natura. :smile:

Spinoza hedged his bets by labeling his pantheistic deity as Deus sive Natura. — Gnomon

:roll: Incorrigible & lazy ...

'Natura deus est' is pantheistic; however, (sub specie aeternitatis) Spinoza's concept is acosmist¹.

(2023, 2020, 2021)
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/825698 [1]

Do you have a better idea --- sans intention --- to explain the existence of our spacetime universe, gradually being deconstructed by Entropy, yet populated by highly-evolved beings who question their origins? — Gnomon

As I said previously, I believe the past is finite, and this entails an initial state (=first cause), which exists as brute fact.

I also believe that this initial state/first cause is not contingent, and this is because I believe contingency depends on a source of contingency. IOW: x is contingent iff there exists some y, that x is contingent upon. This is equivalent to:

Y accounts for (X or ~X).

It is logically impossible for an initial state to be contingent upon anything else. So, whatever this initial state/first cause was, it is metaphysically impossible for it to have been anything else.

What that first cause/initial state IS, is unknown. Although it's logically possible, I see no reason to think it is a "mind" (i.e. an entity that acts with intent). The universe has evolved in a manner fully consistent with laws of nature, which are deterministic (in some cases: probabilistic determination). This purely naturalistic evolution of the universe means there's no evidence of intentionality.

Life exists as a consequence of the way the universe happens to be. However, I see no objective basis for believing life, or intelligent life, to be objectively special. It's just a type of thing, and there are uncountably many types of things that actually exist, and that would exist if the universe had been different (irrespective of whether or not it is metaphysically possible for the universe to have differred).

Intelligent beings engage in mental activities and have mental experiences. These have a clear dependency on physical aspects of the central nervous system, so there's no empirical basis to think mental activity can take place without some such physical "machinery". The emergence of this machinery through evolution accounts for its existence. So the notion that a mind might exist without this complex "machinery", or that it might just exist by brute fact, has no empirical basis. It's logically possible, but logical possibility alone is too weak a basis to form a justified belief about. That's why it seems ad hoc to just postulate that a mind is the first cause.

If you require a hypothesis as to what the first cause was, I can simply state that it was probably some natural state of affairs that evolved (in whole or in part) deterministically (inclusive of probabilistic determination) due to laws of nature. That seems the best explanation, because it's consistent with what we know about the world, and doesn't depend on ad hoc assumptions (e.g. minds can exist independently of complexity physical "machinery").

I once had a conversation online and this guy said that Nietzsche said the (physical) universe does not contain any ethical principle. But he also argued that the ethical person is 'rationally' defined in modern thinking. So I asked him how can the ethical person arise from a universe that has no ethical potential? This is a contradiction as far as Nietzsche is concerned. The only resolution seems to be that ethics arises from outside the physical universe.

As I said previously, I believe the past is finite, and this entails an initial state (=first cause), which exists as brute fact. — Relativist

Is that "belief" based on reasoning from evidence, or just accepted for no particular reason, other than to allow "brute fact" to arbitrarily take the place of transcendental pre-time (eternity/infinity) and intentional causation? :chin:

"Brute fact physicalism" asserts that the fundamental laws of physics, which govern the universe, are "brute facts," meaning they exist as they are without any further explanation or justification; essentially, the way the world is at its most basic level is simply a given that cannot be explained by anything else. ___Google AI overview

I also believe that this initial state/first cause is not contingent, and this is because I believe contingency depends on a source of contingency — Relativist

If the First Cause is "not contingent", that means it is self-existent or self-caused, yes? So far, that sounds like an essential characteristic of a Creator God. In that case, the "source of contingency" could be the intentional act of creating a bubble of space-time within the ocean of eternity. :pray:

In evolutionary theory, sources of contingency include chance variation and genetic drift. However, these sources may not always be strong, as they can be non-chancy in some ways. Shannon's information entropy can be used to measure the strength of a source of contingency. ___Google AI overview

What that first cause/initial state IS, is unknown. Although it's logically possible, I see no reason to think it is a "mind" (i.e. an entity that acts with intent). — Relativist

Surely you can logically infer (reason) some necessary properties of your unknown First Cause. For example, if the Big Bang has produced intelligent and intentional creatures, then the Original Cause must have the Potential for those properties, yes? Or does "Brute Fact" simply mean Something From Nothing for no particular reason? :wink:

I see no objective basis for believing life, or intelligent life, to be objectively special. — Relativist

Is your own Life & Mind nothing (subjectively) special to you? Are you no more special than a rock? Are you lacking in purpose, goals, intentions. Does general Intelligence play no (objectively) special role in the evolving world? Is there no hierarchy of intelligence in your world? Did your Brute Fact (First Cause) have the Potential to produce intentional creatures? Or do you mean not specially selected by the First Cause, hence just a random accident or happenstance? Or do you mean not chosen for a special role in the divine plan? In that case, I'll have to agree with you. :cool:

Special :a thing, such as an event, product, or broadcast, that is designed or organized for a particular occasion or purpose. ___Oxford dictionary

If you require a hypothesis as to what the first cause was, I can simply state that it was probably some natural state of affairs that evolved (in whole or in part) deterministically (inclusive of probabilistic determination) due to laws of nature. — Relativist

Is your "natural state of affairs" the same natural laws that Hawking assumed existed eternally before space-time Nature even began with a Bang?
Are you saying that your deterministic First Cause possessed the power of Determination, including the laws of nature? Again, that sounds like a definition of a creator God. Or are you saying that the cause of this complex world is a Brute Accident? Fortuna was the Roman goddess of dumb Luck. If so, she has been on a statistically impossible streak of Gambler's Luck for 14B years. :smile:

Determination : to decide with the intention to achieve a desired end.
___Merriam-Webster dictionary