• Carlo Roosen
    217
    I've read several arguments here on the forum where people come to logical conclusion like: "Therefore, there must exist an entity, the so-called mind, that can freely decide." or "This proves that god exists" or ”Logical proof that the hard problem of consciousness is impossible to solve"

    Is it possible that with solid premises and correct logical steps, we cannot always accept the conclusion?

    Even in formal logical systems there are things that are not allowed, or you'll get into contradictions. In Math, division by zero is an example. If we assigned any number to the result of dividing by zero we'd run into contradictions

    But this has broad implications. To avoid contradictions, we need to establish rules about what we are allowed to discuss. That’s interesting.

    What about all these discussions in metaphysics & epistemology? Could it be that these topics cannot be addressed logically? Somebody must have said a few words about this already, I guess?
  • Christoffer
    1.9k
    I've read several arguments here on the forum where people come to logical conclusion like: "Therefore, there must exist an entity, the so-called mind, that can freely decide." or "This proves that god exists" or ”Logical proof that the hard problem of consciousness is impossible to solve"

    Is it possible that with solid premises and correct logical steps, we cannot always accept the conclusion?
    Carlo Roosen

    Conclusions like "this proves that god exists" is not a conclusion out of a chain of logic, but a chain of logical fallacies.

    What about all these discussions in metaphysics & epistemology? Could it be that these topics cannot be addressed logically? Somebody must have said a few words about this already, I guess?Carlo Roosen

    The reason why such discussions never ends in an objective and final conclusion is because they either consist of paradoxical conclusions, or we do not have enough understanding of physics or how our mind works to be able to conclude anything final, thus it becomes more a discussion around the premises and which argument has the most valid premises as they might sometime hint at the most likely probable conclusion.

    And to counter-question; is there anything better than using logical reasoning for arriving at conclusions? In order to avoid biases and fallacies? If not using that, then what could possibly get closer to anything objective, classified as truth, or most probable? I tend to see these types of questioning of logical reasoning, using the fact that not everything can be summed up in a logical chain of reasoning down to a solid conclusion; to be some kind of evidence for logical reasoning not to be trusted.

    In the end, it mostly looks like attempts by those who feel their opinions trumped by logic to try and dispel logic as a tool of thought and reasoning, and thereby give more validation to their illogical and just random opinions by somehow bringing down the logical arguments to some kind of pseudo-equality with the illogical ones.
  • T Clark
    13.7k
    Is it possible that with solid premises and correct logical steps, we cannot always accept the conclusion?Carlo Roosen

    All non-trivial logical premises ultimately involve empirical inferences made from observations of the real world. Given the obvious uncertainty associated with those observations, there are no “solid premises” in any kind of unconditional sense.
  • Carlo Roosen
    217
    All non-trivial logical premises ultimately involve empirical inferences made from observations of the real worldT Clark

    There are things you can know independent of the 'real' world.

    "I am conscious" is one. Note that this is not an emperical inference. The knowing of "I am conscious" comes before the words "I am conscious". The difficulty lies in conveying this knowledge to somebody else.

    In Math, you can state things as a premise and derive conclusions. "These are the numbers ... This is how we define addition ... therefore 1 + 1 = 2". We can be pretty sure about this conclusion. But even there, to convey this to somebody else seems to be non-trivial. As "I love sushi" told me recently: if you don't understand, you don't understand.

    If we say "if 1) reality is determistic and 2) we have a free will, it follows 3) we exist outside reality". Where does this go wrong?
  • T Clark
    13.7k
    There are things you can know independent of the 'real' world.

    "I am conscious" is one.
    Carlo Roosen

    Of course my consciousness is an aspect of the real world that I know by observation.

    therefore 1 + 1 = 2Carlo Roosen

    I see two ways of looking at this. First, arithmetic is directly related to counting, a human activity involving observation and requiring learning. Second, looking deeper, there is scientific evidence that humans have an innate numerical ability. Very young babies seem to have an ability to understand quantity. I have been touting a book by Konrad Lorenz, "Behind the Mirror." In it, Lorenz claims that this kind of innate ability is a direct result of evolution. He even makes the point explicitly that, even though the ability is built in, ultimately it results from our and our ancestor's interactions with the world.

    If we say "if 1) reality is determistic and 2) we have a free will, it follows 3) we exist outside reality". Where does this go wrong?Carlo Roosen

    This seems like a gigantic non-sequitur. What does this have to do with the discussion we are having? Besides that, your understanding of the determinism vs. free will issue is very different from mine. This is not the place to take that up.
  • Banno
    24.6k
    All non-trivial logical premises ultimately involve empirical inferences made from observations of the real world.T Clark

    This is presumably non-trivial. What empirical inference made from observation of the real world is involved?
  • T Clark
    13.7k
    This is presumably non-trivial. What empirical inference made from observation of the real world is involved?Banno

    Good question Mr. Hume. I'm not sure where it comes from. I'm not sure if it's something we figure out from seeing that certain things seem to recur in certain situations or if it's something more built in. But it certainly is justifiable based on observation and by the fact that our species continues... for now.
  • Banno
    24.6k
    Hmm. Pragmatism over all.
  • T Clark
    13.7k
    Pragmatism over all.Banno

    Guilty as charged.
  • Banno
    24.6k
    I should have put this here:


    If God does not exist, then it is false that if I pray, then my prayers will be answered. So I do not pray. Therefore God exists.
  • Carlo Roosen
    217
    This seems like a gigantic non-sequitur. What does this have to do with the discussion we are having? Besides that, your understanding of the determinism vs. free will issue is very different from mine. This is not the place to take that up.T Clark

    I am sorry, I was not clear why I brought that in. I wasn't trying to dive into this argument, I used it as an example, an often-seen logical argumentation (although I made it a bit cartoonesc). I was wondering, even while I do agree with the premises to some extend and it seems logically correct, I do not agree with the answer.
  • Carlo Roosen
    217
    my consciousness is an aspect of the real worldT Clark

    I don't agree. There is a conceptual understanding of "me" operating in the world. But the direct, first person realisation of being conscious precedes any other knowing, and is "absolute" in the sense that I don't need anything else for that.

    When I wake up in the morning, I might not know where I am, but even searching my memory for that piece of information, I am conscious.

    Also, if somebody was shouting at me: "you are not conscious, it is an illusion", what would that say? I would stil be conscious.
  • T Clark
    13.7k
    I was wondering, even while I do agree with the premises to some extend and it seems logically correct, I do not agree with the answer.Carlo Roosen

    Here's my take. Neither of the premises is true. Neither is false. Whether reality is deterministic or we have free will can not be verified or falsified empirically.
  • T Clark
    13.7k
    There is a conceptual understanding of "me" operating in the world. But the direct, first person realisation of being conscious precedes any other knowing, and is "absolute" in the sense that I don't need anything else for that.Carlo Roosen

    This is an argument we have here all the time - the hard problem of consciousness. As I see it, there is no hard problem of consciousness.
  • Carlo Roosen
    217
    O but the hard problem is the "how can consciousness arise in dead matter" question. I am not even touching that here. I am trying to keep that discussion out of the topics I am interested in, as long as possible. My point is that there are things you can know for sure, "I am conscious" being one of them. Try the opposite "I am not conscious but .. I am a dream of the universe? And then ? That dream is still conscious." This is absolute truth, where "absolute" means, standing on its own, not dependent on other things.
  • Carlo Roosen
    217
    Can you try to give your own example of a logical deduction that has true premises and yet ends with a false conclusion? I believe it is possible because using natural language our perspective is not clearly defined. Between premise 1 and premise 2 and the conclusion one can have 3 viewpoints.
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