I've read several arguments here on the forum where people come to logical conclusion like: "Therefore, there must exist an entity, the so-called mind, that can freely decide." or "This proves that god exists" or ”Logical proof that the hard problem of consciousness is impossible to solve"

Is it possible that with solid premises and correct logical steps, we cannot always accept the conclusion? — Carlo Roosen

Conclusions like "this proves that god exists" is not a conclusion out of a chain of logic, but a chain of logical fallacies.

What about all these discussions in metaphysics & epistemology? Could it be that these topics cannot be addressed logically? Somebody must have said a few words about this already, I guess? — Carlo Roosen

The reason why such discussions never ends in an objective and final conclusion is because they either consist of paradoxical conclusions, or we do not have enough understanding of physics or how our mind works to be able to conclude anything final, thus it becomes more a discussion around the premises and which argument has the most valid premises as they might sometime hint at the most likely probable conclusion.

And to counter-question; is there anything better than using logical reasoning for arriving at conclusions? In order to avoid biases and fallacies? If not using that, then what could possibly get closer to anything objective, classified as truth, or most probable? I tend to see these types of questioning of logical reasoning, using the fact that not everything can be summed up in a logical chain of reasoning down to a solid conclusion; to be some kind of evidence for logical reasoning not to be trusted.

In the end, it mostly looks like attempts by those who feel their opinions trumped by logic to try and dispel logic as a tool of thought and reasoning, and thereby give more validation to their illogical and just random opinions by somehow bringing down the logical arguments to some kind of pseudo-equality with the illogical ones.

Is it possible that with solid premises and correct logical steps, we cannot always accept the conclusion? — Carlo Roosen

All non-trivial logical premises ultimately involve empirical inferences made from observations of the real world. Given the obvious uncertainty associated with those observations, there are no “solid premises” in any kind of unconditional sense.

All non-trivial logical premises ultimately involve empirical inferences made from observations of the real world — T Clark

There are things you can know independent of the 'real' world.

"I am conscious" is one. Note that this is not an emperical inference. The knowing of "I am conscious" comes before the words "I am conscious". The difficulty lies in conveying this knowledge to somebody else.

In Math, you can state things as a premise and derive conclusions. "These are the numbers ... This is how we define addition ... therefore 1 + 1 = 2". We can be pretty sure about this conclusion. But even there, to convey this to somebody else seems to be non-trivial. As "I love sushi" told me recently: if you don't understand, you don't understand.

If we say "if 1) reality is determistic and 2) we have a free will, it follows 3) we exist outside reality". Where does this go wrong?

There are things you can know independent of the 'real' world.

"I am conscious" is one. — Carlo Roosen

Of course my consciousness is an aspect of the real world that I know by observation.

therefore 1 + 1 = 2 — Carlo Roosen

I see two ways of looking at this. First, arithmetic is directly related to counting, a human activity involving observation and requiring learning. Second, looking deeper, there is scientific evidence that humans have an innate numerical ability. Very young babies seem to have an ability to understand quantity. I have been touting a book by Konrad Lorenz, "Behind the Mirror." In it, Lorenz claims that this kind of innate ability is a direct result of evolution. He even makes the point explicitly that, even though the ability is built in, ultimately it results from our and our ancestor's interactions with the world.

If we say "if 1) reality is determistic and 2) we have a free will, it follows 3) we exist outside reality". Where does this go wrong? — Carlo Roosen

This seems like a gigantic non-sequitur. What does this have to do with the discussion we are having? Besides that, your understanding of the determinism vs. free will issue is very different from mine. This is not the place to take that up.

All non-trivial logical premises ultimately involve empirical inferences made from observations of the real world. — T Clark

This is presumably non-trivial. What empirical inference made from observation of the real world is involved?

This is presumably non-trivial. What empirical inference made from observation of the real world is involved? — Banno

Good question Mr. Hume. I'm not sure where it comes from. I'm not sure if it's something we figure out from seeing that certain things seem to recur in certain situations or if it's something more built in. But it certainly is justifiable based on observation and by the fact that our species continues... for now.

Hmm. Pragmatism over all.

Pragmatism over all. — Banno

Guilty as charged.

I should have put this here:


If God does not exist, then it is false that if I pray, then my prayers will be answered. So I do not pray. Therefore God exists.