God I love this place.

Well, let's take a crack at the obvious. Both are objects comprised of many organic components (provided it is a traditional writing desk and a living or previously living raven) that each and of itself could be used or at least marveled in a near endless fashion of ways. Both are thought of as inspirational or at least can be used to find inspiration and perhaps express it. Both are, at times, stationary. Both hold tangible value for human beings (the raven for companionship or perhaps its meat, the desk for its utility and perhaps aesthetics). Both have potential to further human understanding and existence (perhaps by studying the [dissected] raven atop of said desk for added novelty). One could go on.

Perhaps I'm missing the deeper meaning of this topic, which I'm fine with. More to learn on another day, hence, another reason to look forward to tomorrow, whatever it may hold.

The negative feedback from both sources tortured Edgar Allen Poe while inspiring him at the same time.

Perhaps I'm missing the deeper meaning of this topic — Outlander

Doubtful. The topic is as shallow or a deep as you'd like it to be. It actually requires others, like yourself, to give it depth or shallowness. And books, mountains of books! Maybe a living and a dead Raven would help too.

The negative feedback from both sources tortured Edgar Allen Poe while inspiring him at the same time. — Paine

Henry James wrote the following, perhaps on or at a desk: “An enthusiasm for Poe is the mark of a decidedly primitive stage of reflection.” I wonder if James would say that about Borges.

Bryan W. Proctor: “Edgar Allan Poe was incontestably one of the most worthless persons of whom we have any record in the world of letters.” Ouch. Quoth the Ravens: "Nevermore!"

Source -->Twenty-Five Ways to Roast the Raven

How is a raven like a writing desk?
How kind of you to ask
A riddle like this ought to knock us for six
But we oughtn't take a pass
'Cos there is an answer, more than one
If we put our brains to it
We take the question and turn it round
And put the questioner to it

How is a raven like a writing desk?
...How is a closet like a blue tit? :nerd:

How is a closet like a blue tit? — Baden

If only we could make Socrates a bit glad and mad with the question.
He is somewhere, strolling about, talking with poets,
Extolling the virtues of stranger comparisons.

How is a closet like a blue tit?
Half of the question is up in the air, flitting about, like those birds I can't see.
Half of one solution is in a gun closet.

To shoot or not to shoot, that is the question
For the sake of an innocent inquiry.

Rather we also wait with patience, a cage in hand
Adventuring in dales of the countryside
Cunning and quiet
Climbing trees to steal (t)its progeny.

One dead, one living
One closeted, one caged

All for the sake of a needful comparison:

How is a blue tit like a closet?

Neither can sing.

Both are evil.

Neither can sing. — Vera Mont

Ravens can mimic song like many other Corvids. I wonder what they get up to in a natural setting, whether they imitate other birds. Could ravens lure prey out with imitation, as a tactic? I would be comfortable with the belief that no birds sing, if primarily a human affair. So, neither can sing if none ever do sing.

Both are evil. — praxis

Well, I imagine you're wearing your Puritanical vestments, brush in hand, looking forward to guiding the wayward spirits this All Saints' Eve to their proper places in hell. The dark raven man is menacing and inky, standing on his desk. Perhaps he is Poe's vengeful spirit.

They aren't evil. It is the third figure that fuses them together in mind, the weirdo animal that sits, thinks, writes and paints, is the most cunning agent of strife, who ponders nonsense riddles. It is the lunatic raven man that turns the charming bird meeting of a "murder" and a "conspiracy" into real murder and conspiracy (sometimes at a desk).

:grin: :clap:

Ravens can mimic song like many other Corvids. — Nils Loc

Really? Can you point me to some footage? I know that bluejays and sometimes blackbirds imitate sounds, but I've never heard a crow sing.
We don't get ravens around here, so I don't know what they usually sound like.
Nor can I absolutely swear that no writing desk is wired for sound.
So, that guess may have been wrong. I wait to be further enlightened.

Could ravens lure prey out with imitation, as a tactic? — Nils Loc

What prey? By imitating what? Roadkill doesn't respond; eggs and berries can't be fooled by sound; mice probably wouldn't come out of hiding for a raven song.
Our pet crows loved the fried fish we humans were served every Friday. Neighbours would bring their leftovers and these two full-grown crows would dance around on the steps of our barrack, shaking their wings and cheeping like babies, waiting to be fed. The rest of the time, they'd be perched on the roof or searching the ground. I never heard either one utter a musical note.

@Vera Mont



Maybe their imitation is in very limited in scope and range, as their squawks sound much lower frequency than many little song birds. Haven't heard anything very delicate or melodic from them. So yes, am attributing far too much in their capacity, as harsh squawky black birds.

It may only have been "ma-ma-ma-ma, mamme", but it was quite tuneful. He sang. Human-like, rather than songbird-like, but adorable, all the same. Nothing at all like a writing-desk!

So, I'll have to fall back on the classic:
Edgar Allen Poe wrote on both of them.

can't be fooled by sound — Vera Mont

Many species do predator call mimicry. If the nest is being attacked they make the sound of even larger predator to scare off and deter the threat.

I don't doubt it, and would appreciate learning what species do this and how.

Could ravens lure prey out with imitation, as a tactic? — Nils Loc

But that's not luring prey. You were way ahead with the singing raven.

@Vera Mont

In the following link, a bird watcher hears a greater racket-tailed drongo mimic the sound of a crested serpent eagle to protect its nest. It's a bit of a taxonomic gap from the corvids but am sure the corvids have some interesting predator/prey dynamics on account of how intelligent people say they are. The sociality of corvids probably makes such defensive/offensive mimicry unecessary.

Tale of the Avian Trickster

The calls and croaks of ravens/crows may direct other scavengers, like coyotes and wolves, in tracking quarry. No mimicry is necessarily involved here (but I'd like to know if it ever is). It's just like the association that forms for the cattle egret, as the birds are drawn by the sound of lawn mowers for what it draws out of the grass. What can be stolen from, opened or left behind by the canids/mowers is propitious for the birds.

Maybe ravens don't know what they are doing, just like the writing desks.

It's a bit of a taxonomic gap from the corvids but am sure the corvids have some interesting predator/prey dynamics on account of how intelligent people say they are. — Nils Loc

Konrad Lorenz wrote that crows swarmed and intimidated him on his way down to the river every morning, until he discovered the problem: he'd had a black swimsuit carelessly dangling from his hand. If crows see anything limp and black carried by a predator, they assume it's a dead crow and he's an enemy. After that, he wore his trunks and went empty-handed and was allowed to go in peace.

I'm quite familiar with the racket they make in the dead elms every June-July, when their fledglings are learning to fly. The whole flock stands on guard, taking turns at fly-overs, keeping watch and warning all predators to stay away.
I've also had a flock of 10-12 grackles every spring for some years (though the numbers have diminished alarmingly of late) and I never seen their fledglings. They go into the deeper woods to nest and rear their young. The bluejays are much in evidence, however: they bring their noisy kids to the feeder and do elementary flight-training in our cedar trees. A parents will perch in one tree with the chicks, then fly over to a nearby tree and call to them. And keep calling and encouraging, while the other parent flits back and forth to demonstrate and the kids complain how scared and hungry they are. They make an awful racket, but they're great fun to watch.

In fact, not the least bit evil and in no ways like a writing-desk.

In fact, not the least bit evil and in no ways like a writing-desk. — Vera Mont

Thanks for humoring me a bit. :pray: It maybe healthy to leave the desk behind now and again to watch the birds.

That, like so many formerly pleasant activities, has lately become perilous to one's mental health.
I look at the Gulf of Mexico in the lower right corner of news broadcasts and wonder where the hummingbirds are now. I look out at the feeders and wonder why there so few chickadees. I look at my windshield in summer and know why no swallows are gathering along the road where we used to watch them in early fall.

It is the lunatic raven man that turns the charming bird meeting of a "murder" and a "conspiracy" into real murder and conspiracy (sometimes at a desk). — Nils Loc

I learned that a gathering of ravens is called an 'unkindness', due to the 19th century misconception that they're bad parents. Turns out they're great parents.

• If it is cold the parents fly miles to find flocks of sheep. They collect wool and take it to the nests. They cover the nests with the wool and in this way it is as if they were making a warm sweater for the little ones.
  
• On very hot days they fly to water sources. They carry water in their huge beaks to provide water for their offspring.
  
• If it is even hotter, they wet their feathers and lower the temperature of the young by giving them a bath. Understand that it is not easy to fly with wet feathers. But devotion for their offspring leads them to perform risky acts.

I'm not a believer in evil, truth be told.

They, as well as crows, also teach their young life skills and how to get by in the human world.
The 'murder' is a gathering of crows. They're just families nesting in trees of a proximity to provide mutual protection.
But then, Europeans have a long-standing problem with the colour black: they associate it with death and evil - except, somehow, priests and nuns in their flowing black garb.

Europeans have a long-standing problem with the colour black: they associate it with death and evil — Vera Mont

It's interesting you bring that up. I've done a bit of thinking and "research" (Googling color psychology) on a congruent enough topic to hear a few takes on the subject relating to it being a primitive fear of night or "darkness" (compared to "light" or "day") as much as anything else. Theory being, "darkness" invokes a feeling of mystery or uncertainty in diurnal creatures, as if something, possibly dangerous, is hidden or obscured, likely due to evolutionary biological nature. Seems to pass the smell test. When people imagine something "spooky" such as a house or even a car, what imagery comes to mind?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_the_dark

(yes I looked into all this specifically in an academic context to see if certain forms of racism might have a physiological aspect to it beyond simple xenophobia, bad experiences, or ingrained upbringing)

Yes, I get the light/dark thing (including its spurious association with skin colour). It's the religious garb I find anomalous. Does any other belief system dress its shamans in the colour they most fear?

But then, Europeans have a long-standing problem with the colour black: they associate it with death and evil - except, somehow, priests and nuns in their flowing black garb. — Vera Mont

That is curious. A few moments of google research suggests that the choice of color is based on the inclination to express austerity and the rejection of material life, favoring of spiritual. Makes sense to me. Zen priests wear black robes too, and they’re all about austerity and the pursuit of the spiritual.

Does any other belief system dress its shamans in the colour they most fear? — Vera Mont

Beats me. Not a "worldly" cultural type. Been to Hawaii once. :confused:

Black as a physical garment is associated with some unique qualities, superstitious and otherwise. Black "absorbs" all other colors (not sure what the scientific term for that is), naturally there must be some observable effect that earlier peoples took note of that led to some aggrandizing spiritual quality/association. (White is known to reflect all other colors on the light spectrum hence was and is favored by those in exceedingly hot climates due to its resulting, in no sense of exaggeration, life-saving qualities. Painting your house white offers a notably similar effect, demonstrated by electricity usage, I believe.)

I can do an armchair psychological postulation that perhaps owing to its association with the unknown and mystery it may have been determined that the figures meant to make one at ease with the unknown and "darkness" in life (death and misfortune) wear such so as the religious practitioner consciously and subconsciously becomes less afraid or otherwise more prepared in dealing or coming to terms with such, as is the pragmatical intent of most religions, I believe. Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

Edit: May also be associated with somberness/seriousness or otherwise "commands" or invokes a sense of reverence and respect or focus, etc. Dunno.

. A few moments of google research suggests that the choice of color is based on the inclination to express austerity and the rejection of material life, favoring of spiritual. — praxis

Then why are witches dressed in black? Why are ravens and crows associated with foretelling death, or doom, rather than something spiritual about souls and eternal life and all that? I suspect it's no contradiction at all. Religious turn away from life, love, joy and procreation; they entomb themselves in a celebration of human sacrifice. The rituals of medieval monastic orders attest to this: renunciation of worldly pleasure, mortification of the flesh, a life-long penance for having been born into original sin.

I suspect it's no contradiction at all. Religious turn away from life, love, joy and procreation; they entomb themselves in a celebration of human sacrifice. The rituals of medieval monastic orders attest to this: renunciation of worldly pleasure, mortification of the flesh, a life-long penance for having been born into original sin. — Vera Mont

Yes.

You might think white would be the color of choice, being associated with purity, but to express purity would be impenitent.

Me, I like saffron. Better yet, the bead-work and fringes of North American native shamans. Their work may have a dark side, but they don't have a Cristian disdain for life.