What I have noticed (and this is old school wisdom) if everyone around you appears to be an asshole... the odds are it is you that's the asshole.

I think we need to pars the notion of 'asshole' a bit more. There's deliberate assholes and accidental assholes. And there's the fact that one man's asshole is another's truth teller. How do we objectively determine who is an asshole and who is just misunderstood? :wink:

What I have noticed (and this is old school wisdom) if everyone around you appears to be an asshole... the odds are it is you that's the asshole. — Tom Storm

SO if Trump surrounds himself with assholes and thinks everyone who is against him is an asshole, he is NOT the asshole?

I think we need to pars the notion of 'asshole' a bit more. There's deliberate assholes and accidental assholes. And there's the fact that one man's asshole is another's truth teller. How do we objectively determine who is an asshole and who is just misunderstood? :wink: — Tom Storm

I mean let's stick with the Trump example then...

I am demonstrating "being an asshole" by flagging this thread to be put in the lounge.

I think we need to pars the notion of 'asshole' a bit more. — Tom Storm

The definitions from various dictionaries include:

a usually vulgar : a stupid, annoying, or detestable person
b usually vulgar : the least attractive or desirable part or area —used in phrases like asshole of the world — Merriam-Webster

an unpleasant or stupid person:
Some asshole had parked so I couldn't get out. — Cambridge Dictionary

I would say an asshole is a generally mean or mean-spirited person. I would reserve "stupid person" for some other words so we can focus on the mean aspect.

But if that is the case, there is a time and place to be mean. Sometimes you have to be "mean" to your kids to cajole them to behave. You have to "be an asshole". That doesn't mean you necessarily ARE an asshole. But if a parent continually beats their kids, berates them, belittles them, then they certainly ARE assholes.. So there is definitely something going on here regarding the nature of appropriate assholeness.

I am demonstrating "being an asshole" by flagging this thread to be put in the lounge. — Metaphysician Undercover

Mind you there is a whole philosophical book on it
https://www.amazon.com/Assholes-Theory-Aaron-James/dp/0804171351

I am demonstrating "being an asshole" by flagging this thread to be put in the lounge. — Metaphysician Undercover

And yes, thank you for being an exemplar. We needed a first go.

Nope, I knew I was wrong! I found a much better definition from a philosopher:

After considerable tinkering and with the help friends, I settled on this definition: the asshole is the guy who systematically allows himself special advantages in cooperative life out of an entrenched sense of entitlement that immunises him against the complaints of other people. — The Meaning of an Asshole- Aaron James

I soon discovered linguistic evidence for this “cognitivist” rather than “expressivist” treatment of the word. It makes perfect sense to say of someone, “Yes, he is my friend, and he’s fine to me personally, but I admit he’s an asshole”. You can also coherently say things like “General MacArthur was plainly an asshole, but in the end a force for good”. Now maybe those contexts don’t express all-out disapproval, because they still express disapproval in a muted form that is outweighed by other considerations. Yet even all-out approval seems perfectly coherent. It is coherent – and indeed commonplace – for an asshole to proudly own the name. He boasts “Yes I’m an asshole – deal with it”. He taunts his subjects with this pronouncement precisely because he seems to approve wholeheartedly. — The Meaning of an Asshole- Aaron James

https://philosophersmag.com/the-meaning-of-asshole/

I view the matter as starting with the tyrannical and learning better.

I regret many episodes of what I did while parenting. As much as I don't like the quality, it is a part of me as it is with the people who I oppose.

I regret many episodes of what I did while parenting. As much as I don't like the quality, it is a part of me as it is with the people who I oppose. — Paine

You recognize it and regret it. Is that really an asshole? Does an asshole own it usually? See quote above from Aaron James essay..

It's arsehole.

It's arsehole. — Banno

This does seem to be an equivalent identity. Or would the sense change? Is an asshole really an arsehole?

Is being an asshole inherent to someone's nature/personality/character or is an asshole made- something you become/work at? — schopenhauer1

I often tell my brother that he and I are assholes. By that I mean we are sometimes, often, insensitive to how the things we say and do affect other people. I usually say (at least to myself) it is a matter of temperament, i.e. a "characteristic or habitual inclination or mode of emotional response" (Merriam Webster). Claiming that in no way absolves me from responsibility for the things I say and do. It is something I have worked to soften all my life, with some success.

if someone is a longstanding asshole, that is to say, "sets the precedent" for being an asshole really early on in a community, they seem to get more of a "pass" as it's just "them being them!" — schopenhauer1

I see this in a somewhat more positive light. It is often true that I recognize qualities in a person that compensate for any difficulties in their behavior. As an engineer, it was much more important whether a coworker was competent than that they were a bit cranky or tactless.

So by this:

This does seem to be an equivalent identity. Or would the sense change? Is an asshole really an arsehole? — schopenhauer1

I mean, perhaps an arsehole is a less cutting way of saying asshole. A genuine asshole might think of HIMSELF as JUST being an arsehole, when in fact he comes off or is truly being an asshole.

For sure, I don't want to celebrate the quality in that way. And hard-core assholes do not regret anything.

But I do not feel triumphant.

I see this in a somewhat more positive light. It is often true that I recognize qualities in a person that compensate for any difficulties in their behavior. As an engineer, it was much more important whether a coworker was competent than that they were a bit cranky or tactless. — T Clark

But you seem to be using the notion of "useful" as the arbiter of moral import here.. Which is indeed revealing. If "character counts" in some way, this notion of "useful" would be contested at least as far as moral value.

For sure, I don't want to celebrate the quality in that way. And hard-core assholes do not regret anything. — Paine

Trump.. But then that could just be a narcissist. Are narcissists simply default/pathological assholes? I would imagine at the least, one can be a pathological asshole but not be a narcissist.. but how to determine which is which?

But you seem to be using the notion of "useful" as the arbiter of moral import here.. Which is indeed revealing. If "character counts" in some way, this notion of "useful" would be contested at least as far as moral value. — schopenhauer1

I don't see being an asshole as a moral issue. I acknowledge you have defined that term differently than I did. Under either definition, perhaps it would be more useful to characterize it as a management issue.

I mean let's stick with the Trump example then... — schopenhauer1

I don’t know if T is an asshole. Seems too mild an epithet, I think he’s more of a malignant grifter. But as I said, this assessment will always be subject to some criterion of value. I think an asshole is generally obnoxious. A narcissist may be utterly charming.

But this is not a science.

I don’t know if T is an asshole. Seems too mild an epithet, I think he’s more of a malignant grifter. But as I said, this assessment will always be subject to some criterion of value. I think an asshole is generally obnoxious. A narcissist may be utterly charming.

But this is not a science. — Tom Storm

Why do you think we can so easily detect (at least when we think) when someone is being an asshole? Why is it so visceral? Also, why do some people not mind or even gravitate to assholes?

Long before Aaron James published his erudite book on assholes, the term had spread its meaning from "slightly annoying" on one end to "flagrant rejection of decency" on the other end. For the mild form, "Everybody is an asshole except me and thee, and even thee..."

Donald Trump is, of course, a consummate asshole who is in flagrant disregard of the good, the true, and the beautiful. Wisconsin Senator Joseph McCarthy was another asshole, famously called out by Boston lawyer Joseph Welch, Counsel for the Army on television:

"Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness." When McCarthy tried to continue his attack, Welch angrily interrupted, "Let us not assassinate this lad further, senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency at long last?"

One thing about assholes: everybody has one. Well I suppose unfortunate people who have had colostomies don't, but that's beside the point.

Question: are assholes (under the severe meaning) becoming more common, and are they becoming worse? It seems like being a complete asshole is similar, no matter when or where one existed. Some people just have a fairly thorough contempt for other people--any other people. They have been appearing among us at a fairly stead rate, and they aren't getting worse. They were worse to start with.

What to do about them? Labeling an asshole 'asshole' clearly has no effect. Assholes don't care about our feelings on the matter. If someone cares about their reputation enough to stop being a total jerk, then they are not an asshole. If they don't care, well, then they don't care what we think. We can put away our guns and go home.

What relationship exists between "total jerks" and "assholes"? Does the first lead to the second? Which is worse? How much difference does the intensifier "fucking" affect our estimation of jerkhood or assholery? Is a 'fucking asshole' worse than an unmodified asshole? How about all those fucking jerks out there?

Then there is bullshit, which none of us have EVER dabbled in. See On Bullshit 1st Edition, by Harry G. Frankfurt 2020

Question: are assholes (under the severe meaning) becoming more common, and are they becoming worse? It seems like being a complete asshole is similar, no matter when or where one existed. Some people just have a fairly thorough contempt for other people--any other people. They have been appearing among us at a fairly stead rate, and they aren't getting worse. They were worse to start with. — BC

This goes back to an initial question- is one born an asshole or does one learn to be an asshole? Either way, which is worse, expressing one's inner asshole or choosing to be an asshole?

It seems for Trump, he cannot have it any other way, he MUST be an asshole. Do you notice that a lot of assholes are often in top positions? Is it the asshole that makes the success, or does the success make the asshole?

What to do about them? Labeling an asshole 'asshole' clearly has no effect. Assholes don't care about our feelings on the matter. If someone cares about their reputation enough to stop being a total jerk, then they are not an asshole. If they don't care, well, then they don't care what we think. We can put away our guns and go home. — BC

Is there an inbuilt entitlement there? Smugness? Is there an undefinable charisma that allows for the smugness/nastiness to flow forth without much consequence? Is there a wittiness that goes with being a good asshole? Can someone be a good asshole? Is Trump "good" at being an asshole? Is JD Vance an example of someone who is "bad" at being an asshole? Is Trump just "born with it", and Vance isn't and thus the difference in talent? If someone is a shitty asshole, does that make him an assclown? Does JD qualify then as an assclown?

What relationship exists between "total jerks" and "assholes"? Does the first lead to the second? Which is worse? How much difference does the intensifier "fucking" affect our estimation of jerkhood or assholery? Is a 'fucking asshole' worse than an unmodified asshole? How about all those fucking jerks out there? — BC

Now those are some good questions.. "Fucking" adds a sense of "frustration". So a "Fucking asshole" is an asshole who is frustrating. That can be considered a sort of synonym but I don't think so. "My fuckn car won't start" connotes that the car is frustrating. The "fuckn" part conveys that one is frustrated with dealing with an asshole.

It's not possible to accurately differentiate between an innocent albeit crass, unrefined or ignorant (or socially-inept/sociopathic) individual and one who is purposely trying to upset or irritate you in any given interaction, unfortunately.

Most these days are an unfortunate combination of both, some leaning more toward one than the other. For those who are the latter, it's often a simple psychological phenomenon. They think it's normal. Often poor parenting, a rough life, or the temperament of their childhood upbringing (crucial development phase); they don't feel "normal" unless they're oppressing or belittling another person as they live in a constant state of mental entrapment by their past experiences and resulting identity. It's their "comfort zone" that was perpetuated by their parents and will likely be perpetuated by them with their own offspring. It is a socially-destructive cycle that is in no exaggeration or inaccuracy of language, a disease. No different than cancer or severe blindness. Of course, that's simply what happens when reproduction is declared a "social right" instead of an earned privilege voted on by a governing council of educated, moral men. Not surprising in the least. Frankly, I'm shocked everyone hasn't killed each other by now. Plenty of time, I guess.

Thanks. *Initiates asshole demeanour* Putting this shite in the lounge.

Empathy levels are probably the determining factor for ass/arseholeness. At a certain level of diminishing empathy, the arsehole never rebounds from arseholeness to sympathy / comradeship as most of us do when not having a bad day, and thus they remain stuck up their own arse. There's likely a mix of nature / nurture here, and a critical period in childhood where if one isn't taught to value other human beings, the path of arseholeness becomes all too inevitable.

I was thinking this morning that skunks are assholes. My nostrils were filled with their defensive stink at the time, their last FUCK YOU to a world that left them smeared across the highway. They invade small-time poultry operations and bite the heads off the chickens. They don't eat them, they just bite their heads off. Who does that?

On a more serious level, my current daily read is The Power Broker by Robert A. Caro. It's a very thorough and scholarly biography of Robert Moses 1888-1981, the 'master builder' of New York City, whose various civil engineering projects destroyed a lot of neighborhoods. He also built a lot of public parks.

Moses was certainly an asshole, which seems to have also been a feature of both his grandmother and mother, both of whom were highly opinionated, arrogant, and imperious people. Yale-and-Oxford-educated Robert Moses started out as a self-sacrificing idealist of the Progressive Era and, as he was taught and learned how politics actually worked, became a self-serving autocrat in the field of parks, public housing, and road construction.

Moses may have been given an asshole tilt by his mother and grandmother, but in his 30s began learning how to be a complete asshole. Power was the key. Moses learned the hard way that without power, one's ideas were never fulfilled. He thus set about finding power, and once found, used it for "the public good" (all those parks, public and private high rises, and freeways) and to generate more power.

Moses became the boss of the agency that built toll roads in New York, and the cash from the toll booths (many millions of dollars) was the key piece in establishing his unfettered power. His style was that of a tyrant asshole, but he did build a lot of good stuff, too, like the numerous parks on Long Island which had previously been kept off limits to the public by the wealthy people whose huge estates were there, and by the previously insular communities on Long Island. There were, before Moses, no public beaches on Long Island.

So, Robert Moses was a self-made asshole.

Psychopaths have a bad reputation. Extreme psychopaths are intolerable in society, but a very smart executive with maybe 5% - 10% psychopathic tendencies is likely to be highly effective, and likely to be an asshole. If an slightly psychopathic executive of Microsoft or Boeing needs to lay off 1500 employees on Christmas Eve to maintain the company's profitability for that quarter, he will do so; and he will sleep just fine and have a nice Christmas Day.

One feature of being an asshole would be the ability to make decisions for the good of the collective without experiencing any discomfort for the individuals whose lives were ruined. Whether a touch of psychopathy is the same as being an asshole is something that will have to be studied by university researchers.

Proportionate narcissism seems like a necessity for a healthy personality. It provides the motivation to take care of one's self. Donald Trump's very disproportionate narcissism, high self-regard, indifference to the facts, and so on doesn't seem like psychopathy to me, but it does make him an asshole.

We can differentiate mental illness or instability from asshole behavior. Mentally disordered individuals may very well behave badly -- not because they want to, but because at the moment they can't do otherwise (they'll be accused of 'acting out'). A lot of troubling private and public behavior is traceable to mental illness rather than the presence of assholes.

Making careful distinctions is all well and good, but there are also a lot of people whose diagnosis is "asshole".