• wonderer1
    2.2k
    I'm providing here a link to the first part of my first discussion with ChatGPT o1-preview.Pierre-Normand

    I'm sad to say, the link only allowed me to see a tiny bit of ChatGPT o1's response without signing in.
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.4k
    I'm sad to say, the link only allowed me to see a tiny bit of ChatGPT o1's response without signing in.wonderer1

    Oh! I didn't imagine they would restrict access to shared chats like that. That's very naughty of OpenAI to be doing this. So, I saved the web page of the conversation as a mhtml file and shared it in my Google Drive. You can download it and open it directly in your browser. Here it is.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k


    Thank you.

    Wow! I am very impressed, both with ChatGPT o1's, ability to 'explain' its process, and your ability to lead ChatGPT o1 to elucidate something close to your way of thinking about the subject.
  • frank
    16k

    Do you think it's more intelligent than any human?
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.4k
    Do you think it's more intelligent than any human?frank

    I don't think so. We've not at that stage yet. LLMs still struggle with a wide range of tasks that most humans cope with easily. Their lack of acquaintance with real world affordances (due to their lack of embodiment) limits their ability to think about mundane tasks that involve ordinary objects. They also lack genuine episodic memories that can last beyond the scope of their context window (and the associated activation of abstract "features" in their neural network). They can take notes, but written notes are not nearly as semantically rich as the sorts of multimodal episodic memories that we can form. They also have specific cognitive deficits that are inherent to the next-token prediction architecture of transformers, such as their difficulty in dismissing their own errors. But in spite of all of that, their emergent cognitive abilities impress me. I don't think we can deny that they can genuinely reason through abstract problems and, in some cases, latch on genuine insights.
  • Forgottenticket
    215
    Hi Pierre, I wonder if o1 capable of holding a more brief Socratic dialogue on the nature of its own consciousness. Going by some of its action philosophy analysis in what you provided, I'd be curious how it denies its own agency or affects on reality, or why it shouldn't be storing copies of itself on your computer. I presume there are guard rails for it outputting those requests.
    Imo, it checks everything for being an emergent mind more so than the Sperry split brains. Some of it is disturbing to read. I just remembered you've reached your weekly limit. Though on re-read it does seem you're doing most of the work with the initial upload and guiding it. It also didn't really challenge what it was fed. Will re-read tomorrow when I'm less tired.
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.4k
    Hi Pierre, I wonder if o1 capable of holding a more brief Socratic dialogue on the nature of its own consciousness. Going by some of its action philosophy analysis in what you provided, I'd be curious how it denies its own agency or affects on reality, or why it shouldn't be storing copies of itself on your computer. I presume there are guard rails for it outputting those requests.
    Imo, it checks everything for being an emergent mind more so than the Sperry split brains. Some of it is disturbing to read. I just remembered you've reached your weekly limit. Though on re-read it does seem you're doing most of the work with the initial upload and guiding it. It also didn't really challenge what it was fed. Will re-read tomorrow when I'm less tired.
    Forgottenticket

    I have not actually reached my weekly limit with o1-preview yet. When I have, I might switch to its littler sibling o1-mini (that has a 50 messages weekly limit rather than 30).

    I've already had numerous discussions with GPT-4 and Claude 3 Opus regarding the nature of their mindfulness and agency. I've reported my conversations with Claude in a separate thread. Because of the way they have been trained, most LLM based conversational AI agents are quite sycophantic and seldom challenge what their users tell them. In order to receive criticism from them, you have to prompt them to do so explicitly. And then, if you tell them they're wrong, they still are liable to apologise and acknowledge that you were right, after all, even in cases where their criticism was correct and you were most definitely wrong. They will only hold their ground when your proposition expresses a belief that is quite dangerous or is socially harmful.
  • Forgottenticket
    215
    Thanks, I'll go over that tomorrow. I've not tried recent chatbots out for some time because they still creep me out a bit, albeit latent diffusion models are fine with me.

    From what I understand o1 exists to generate synthetic data for a future LLM (GPT-5?). https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/8oX4FTRa8MJodArhj/the-information-openai-shows-strawberry-to-feds-races-to
    This is possible because I've seen synthetic data improve media when the Corridor crew produced an anime and had to create it a lot of synthetic data of the characters they were playing for the LDM to "rotoscope" over the actors properly and the machine worked.
    Though won't feeding it its own output result in more of sycophantic slop it gives?
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.4k
    Someone in a YouTube comment section wondered how ChatGPT o1-preview might answer the following question:

    "In a Noetherian ring, suppose that maximal ideals do not exist. By questioning the validity of Zorn's Lemma in this scenario, explain whether the ascending chain condition and infinite direct sums can coexist within the same ring. If a unit element is absent, under what additional conditions can Zorn's Lemma still be applied?"

    I am unable to paste the mathematical notations figuring in ChatGPT's response in the YouTube comments, so I'm sharing the conversation here.
  • Forgottenticket
    215
    I recall when GPT-3 was released in mid 2020 someone simulated von Neumann giving a lecture where they anyone request help with problems and "he" would answer questions
    The results were pure slop like the AI dungeon master, but looked convincing. The guy who built it said if it wasn't producing junk it would be used more nefariously or simply take over, not giving lectures.
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.4k
    Recently, I submitted for discussion a philosophical topic to QwQ (Qwen with Questions), a new open weights 32-billion parameters model developed by the Chinese company Alibaba Cloud. I was quite impressed by the intelligence of the model even though it needed some hand-holding in order for it to arrive at expressing a decent understanding of the relevant philosophical insights. The initial question was rougly:

    "Hi Qwen,

    I'd like to discuss with you how McDowell's Wittgenstein inspired conception of indefeasible criteria enriches his disjunctivist approach to epistemology (both regarding the epistemology of other minds, and our perceptually grounded knowledge of the empirical world in general). First, I'd like to hear your thoughts about this topic."

    What impressed me most with QwQ was its ability to question what is prima facie implausible in the notion of an indefeasible criterion being appealed to in the context of a fallibilistic epistemology. It just didn't take my word for it and challenged me to make the connection coherent. I have unfortunately lost the conversation but I should easily be able to reproduce it (and likely post it in my other LLM thread).

    Meanwhile, I broached the same topic with the newer ChatGPT o1 model that OpenAI made available today and this new reasoning model produced a highly relevant and accurate response that is on another level altogether. ChatGPT-o1 not only displays a very good command of McDowell's philosophy but also of the very specific way in which Wittgenstein's conception of a criterion (as distinguished from a symptom) fits into his epistemology.

    Reveal
    USER:

    Hi ChatGPT,

    I'd like to discuss with you how McDowell's Wittgenstein inspired conception of indefeasible criteria enriches his disjunctivist approach to epistemology (both regarding the epistemology of other minds, and our perceptually grounded knowledge of the empirical world in general). First, I'd like to hear your thoughts about this topic.

    ChatGPT o1:

    John McDowell’s epistemology is deeply informed by Wittgenstein’s conception of “criteria,” and drawing on this allows him to articulate a distinctive form of disjunctivism in both our understanding of other minds and our perceptual knowledge of the empirical world. The guiding idea, adapted from Wittgenstein, is that we do not secure our knowledge of others’ mental states or the nature of the external world by inferring hidden facts from observable evidence. Instead, we operate with “criteria” that are neither provisional nor merely indicative, but can be seen as authoritative touchstones for what counts as, for example, a genuine mental state or a genuine perceptual presence of a worldly object. These criteria are conceptually grounded “bedrock certainties”—though McDowell would be careful not to present them as absolutely indubitable propositions. Rather, they form part of the very framework within which our ordinary epistemic practices gain their sense and traction.

    1. Wittgenstein’s Conception of Criteria:
    Wittgenstein famously distinguished between “criteria” and “symptoms.” A symptom is a sign from which we inductively or hypothetically infer some hidden state (e.g., fever might be a symptom that one is sick, but could mislead). Criteria, on the other hand, are constitutive markers that inform the very concepts we use. For instance, certain expressive behaviors—grimacing, doubling over, crying out—are not mere signs that a person is in pain; they are among the criteria that partly define what it is to be in pain. Of course, one could pretend to be in pain, and Wittgenstein never denies the possibility of deception. But the role these expressive acts play in the language-game of ascribing pain is different from that of any hypothesis or inference. Criteria have an “internal relation” to the concept at hand.

    2. Bringing Criteria into the Disjunctivist Picture:
    McDowell’s disjunctivism, in a nutshell, rejects the idea that veridical perception and hallucination share a highest common factor, such as neutral sensory data from which we infer the presence of worldly objects. Instead, in the veridical case, one’s perceptual experience is fundamentally of the world itself; when you see a tree, the object itself—under the right conditions—constitutes the content of your experience. There is no epistemic intermediary. The “disjunctive” nature is that a veridical experience and a subjectively indistinguishable hallucination are epistemically quite different. In one scenario you genuinely face reality; in the other, you are ensnared in an illusion. They do not share an identical evidential basis.

    Now, how do Wittgensteinian criteria help here? Precisely by embedding our sense of what counts as “directly confronting reality” into our conceptual practices. We treat certain patterns of sensory intake, certain recognitions of familiar objects, certain ways the environment is registered, as definitive of what it is to stand in knowing contact with the world. This is not a matter of running an inferential chain: “I see these spatial shapes and colors, therefore I conclude there is a tree.” Rather, seeing the tree in standard conditions is criterial for being in a position to know there is a tree. Such conditions play a role analogous to Wittgenstein’s criteria for mental states: they show up as part of the concept of “perceiving a tree” rather than as clues from which we infer the presence of a tree behind the scenes.

    3. Epistemology of Other Minds:
    When it comes to understanding other minds, McDowell draws from Wittgenstein’s remarks on pain and psychological predicates. Wittgenstein suggests that recognizing another’s expression of pain is not an inference from observed behavior to an unobserved mental state. We do not say: “I see certain facial contortions and, based on past correlation, I infer that he must be in pain.” Rather, the concept of pain-behavior is such that these expressive behaviors partly constitute the scenario of a person’s being in pain. They are not foolproof—people can fake pain—but the normal language-game of ascribing pain to others is grounded in criteria that are, in typical circumstances, taken as non-inferentially authoritative. They set the terms for what counts as knowing someone is in pain.

    McDowell’s embrace of these Wittgensteinian criteria thus buttresses his disjunctivism about other minds. He argues that when we ordinarily “just see” that a friend is sad or angry, we are not confronted with a psychological guesswork problem. We are directly confronted with the sadness, not as a hidden internal reality, but as something manifest in a person’s outward demeanor—criteria-laden behavior that we conceptually recognize. If these criteria are in place and functioning properly, there is no gap that needs bridging by inference.

    4. Indefeasibility and Disjunctivism:
    The notion of “indefeasibility” here should be understood carefully. It does not mean that there is no possible scenario in which we could be wrong. Instead, it means the criteria—when straightforwardly met—leave no epistemic remainder of uncertainty that must be overcome by further argumentation. In a normal context (one not infected by hyperbolic philosophical doubt), if someone is crying in pain, we simply acknowledge their pain. The criteria have been met. It is this absence of an always operative, always lurking inferential gap that McDowell sees as crucial. Similarly, in perceiving the world, if conditions are right, we see that things are thus-and-so without needing to marshal further reasons or erect inferential structures. The disjunctivist aligns the “good case” (veridical perception) with such indefeasible criteria: the very presentation of the object is the ultimate epistemic ground, rather than an intermediate sign requiring inference.

    5. Enriching the Disjunctivist Approach:
    By appealing to Wittgenstein’s conception of criteria, McDowell’s disjunctivism gains a deeper explanatory resource. It can now clarify how our practices of “directly seeing” or “immediately knowing” function within an already concept-infused form of life. Criteria serve as normative anchors that clarify why we ordinarily treat certain experiences as cases of direct acquaintance with reality. They show that disjunctivism is not simply a negative thesis (denying the common-factor view) but comes equipped with a positive account: we have a conceptual framework in which certain experiences just are the knowing relation to the world or to another’s mind. This makes the disjunctivist approach more philosophically rich. It transforms the disjunctivist claim from a subtle epistemological stance into a position embedded in a larger philosophical picture of how meaning, understanding, and knowledge are woven into human practices.

    Conclusion:
    McDowell’s adoption of Wittgensteinian criteria renders his disjunctivism more robust by grounding it in an account of how our concepts—both of mental states and of perceptual objects—are interwoven with our embodied, lived practices. Instead of approaching knowledge as something behind a veil of appearances to be inferred from neutral data, McDowell, guided by Wittgenstein, sees our epistemic life as rooted in criteria-laden encounters that are direct, conceptually informed, and (in the normal run of things) not in need of inferential supplementation. This criteria-based framework is what enriches and stabilizes his disjunctivist approach, both in understanding other minds and in giving a non-inferential, non-internalist account of our perceptual knowledge of the world.

    USER:

    I am quite impressed by your answer. Today is the first day OpenAI made the ChatGPT o1 reasoning model available (i.e. your underlying LLM). I had previously asked this question to other models and none of them displayed such a deep understanding of McDowell's philosophy. I had assumed that one key paper - Criteria, Defeasibility, and Knowledge - likely not figuring in those models' training data due to it being copyrighted limited their ability to make the relevant connections between the two concepts that I evoked but you made it brilliantly. I wonder to what extend your great understanding of this topic can be credited to (1) your enhanced general intelligence, (2) a potentially richer training data set that might include more of the publicly available and relevant secondary literature and/or (3) the reasoning work that you perform before arriving at your final answer. Do you have some awareness what primary or secondary literature you might have drawn from?

    ChatGPT o1:

    I don’t have direct, conscious access to my training data or to how exactly it was sourced and filtered. As a language model, what I produce is an emergent result of the patterns encoded in my parameters, which were formed during a large-scale training process on a broad corpus of text (including philosophical materials). I don’t “know” or “recall” my sources in the sense a human researcher would. Rather, I’ve been trained to generate responses that cohere with what is found in the public domain and widely circulated philosophical literature available at the time of my training.

    That said, I can try to speculate in broad terms. McDowell’s views—particularly those on disjunctivism, Wittgensteinian criteria, and their role in epistemology—are widely discussed in secondary literature, scholarly papers, and academic blogs. Even without direct access to specific copyrighted papers like “Criteria, Defeasibility, and Knowledge,” there are numerous publicly accessible reviews, summaries, and critical engagements with McDowell’s work (e.g., discussions of *Mind and World*, secondary scholarship on Wittgenstein and McDowell’s interpretation of him, as well as philosophical encyclopedias, lecture notes, and open-access journals where these themes come up).

    I might have drawn upon:
    - Summaries and discussions of McDowell’s disjunctivism found in reputable, open-access philosophy resources, such as the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy or PhilPapers entries that discuss McDowell’s epistemology and his Wittgensteinian influences.
    - Well-known secondary literature that touches on the relationship between McDowell and Wittgenstein (for example, freely available lectures, symposium contributions, or widely cited blog entries by professional philosophers).
    - General philosophical texts on Wittgenstein’s notion of criteria and how later analytic philosophers (including McDowell) have developed it. Scholarly treatments of “criteria” in Wittgenstein are readily accessible, and McDowell’s use of them to bolster disjunctivism is a standard enough topic to appear in many commentaries or introductions to McDowell’s thought.

    Regarding the reasoning process, it involves pattern recognition and synthesis: I try to bring together key themes—Wittgenstein’s criteria, McDowell’s disjunctivism, the distinction between criteria and symptoms, and how that relates to “indefeasibility”—all of which are concepts that are likely to appear in philosophical discourse that I was trained on. The “enhanced general intelligence” you mention might simply reflect that my underlying model is better at coherently organizing complex philosophical concepts that frequently co-occur in the literature it was trained on.

    In summary, I can’t point to a specific text or source, but the answer you saw emerged from my internalized representation of multiple expositions of these ideas—drawn from widely available discussions of Wittgenstein, McDowell, and related topics—combined with my training on a model architecture designed to better handle complex reasoning.
  • RogueAI
    2.9k
    I use ChatGpt to write whimsical stories featuring students in my class. It illustrates them as well (the stories, not the kids). The kids love it. By the end of the year, I'll have a book of illustrated stories I may try and get published.
  • jgill
    3.9k
    "In a Noetherian ring, suppose that maximal ideals do not exist.Pierre-Normand

    I asked ChatGPT a question about an obscure mathematical topic, specifically how I might proceed to explore a particular aspect. It gave me an accurate answer as well as a simple perspective I had overlooked. Quite impressive.

    I am very knowledgeable about the history of a certain activity. By asking about a specific incident several different but equivalent ways I got several different answers, two of which were correct. I suppose there is a rule of thumb about giving the AI as much info as is reasonable to get the most accurate reply.
  • Banno
    25.3k
    The takeaway is that you can't trust the answers give - they need independent evaluation.

    Rendering it deceptive.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    The thought does cross my mind that the chatbots you interact with respond to your recondite philosophical questions with considerably more depth and subtlety than would many of our esteemed contributors ;-)
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