We must look for other explanations for the Fermi paradox, for example, this one: extraterrestrial civilizations have erased their radio broadcasts and other evidence of their existence, because the knowledge of the very fact that extraterrestrial civilizations exist can harm us at current stage of our development. — Linkey

Nonsense! If they truly existed, they would find a way to contact us, the same way we had been trying for decades now. "harm" is non-knowledge, it is one human cop out explanation for why things didn't happen. No existents would erase their civilization willingly so other civilization could thrive.

Just think of dinosaurs, which were on a different wavelength than us. They did not willingly go on extinction.

the same way we had been trying for decades now. — L'éléphant

Small point: how many decades? SIx? Sixty years? Assuming the search has been efficient and effective for that long, that's a search radius of about 60 light-years. The radius of the Milky way is 50,000+ light years. Further, contact by signal to be acknowledged will take at least an equal time back. Thus given the distances, it's like looking for a needle in a very, very large haystack, and even if it turns out there a many needles, still, we have barely even begun.

And in terms of signals of any kind sent, one hundred year's worth? If they're even detectable? And our nearest galactic neighbor about 2.5M light-years? We're likely going to alone for at least a very long time.

Small point: how many decades? SIx? Sixty years? Assuming the search has been efficient and effective for that long, that's a search radius of about 60 light-years. The radius of the Milky way is 50,000+ light years. Further, contact by signal to be acknowledged will take at least an equal time back. Thus given the distances, it's like looking for a needle in a very, very large haystack, and even if it turns out there a many needles, still, we have barely even begun. — tim wood

I see. So, I'm inclined to conclude that, as members of this forum, we have not been paying attention to much of what were posted here.

This is from @Wayfarer's thread.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12247/james-webb-telescope/p1

It could peek into the distant past of 13.7 B years.

It could peek into the distant past of 13.7 B years. — L'éléphant

It could also turn out to be a glass on the wall of a deaf/mute couple discussing Einstein's theories, absolutely useless.
If we do not know their method of communication, we might never stumble upon the thousands of cold calls their insurance companies have been making to us. We might even have blocked them without knowing it.

Extra question: Is the Fermi paradox actually a paradox? Or just two statements about different topics?

If we do not know their method of communication, we might ever stumble upon the thousands of cold calls their insurance companies have been making to us. We might even have blocked them without knowing it. — Sir2u

Ah, fair point. Their method of communication might be different. And yet, radioactivity is the universal language of the entire universe.

There are 118 known elements in the universe, 92 found on Earth. Apparently, if there undiscovered elements, our scientists could predict what they are.

If aliens exist, they don't have much freedom as to what radioactivity they could emit -- they don't have the smorgasbord of elements to combine into their supersignal so that, like you said, we could block or trace them.
I strongly believe that we have not blocked them.

Now, there are regions of the universe without matter, otherwise known as perfect vacuum. I don't suppose we will find the aliens there.

Their method of communication might be different. And yet, radioactivity is the universal language of the entire universe. — L'éléphant

You suppose, entirely without any base, that they are at least as advanced as we are.

There are 118 known elements in the universe, 92 found on Earth. Apparently, if there undiscovered elements, our scientists could predict what they are. — L'éléphant

Since it is actually just about a hundred years ago that other galaxies were proven to exist, it might just be there are many more that they could not predict yet.

At any rate, having this knowledge is in no way a guarantee that we have similar methods of communication. I thought that I had made that obvious in the comment about the glass and the deaf mute people on the other side of the wall. But you could also try giving that data to a tribesman in the Amazon and see how far you get with communication.

If aliens exist, they don't have much freedom as to what radioactivity they could emit -- they don't have the smorgasbord of elements to combine into their supersignal — L'éléphant

And exactly what is their "supersignal" going to be like? And what would we need to do to receive it?

You suppose, entirely without any base, that they are at least as advanced as we are. — Sir2u

Edit: "Advanced" as we are? I don't know if I've given that impression -- but I had implied that if there signs of intelligent life, we have the technology to pick it up.
Normally, signs of intelligent life include but not limited to living beings and their tools. Bottom line -- they could be more advanced or less advanced but we have not shown that either exists out there.

Since it is actually just about a hundred years ago that other galaxies were proven to exist, it might just be there are many more that they could not predict yet. — Sir2u

Possibly.

At any rate, having this knowledge is in no way a guarantee that we have similar methods of communication. — Sir2u

But we are referring to the same universe you and I exist in. That's what I meant when I said, there's not much signals except the radioactivity because the universe is made of those elements.

And exactly what is their "supersignal" going to be like? And what would we need to do to receive it? — Sir2u

I made up that name to make a point that if they are giving signals, the Hubble and JW telescope could trace them.

From a 2020 thread Aliens!

Btw, barely a century of terrestrial technoscience, our so-called "Fermi Paradox" seems wildly premature. — 180 Proof

But we are referring to the same universe you and I exist in. That's what I meant when I said, there's not much signals except the radioactivity because the universe is made of those elements. — L'éléphant

The fact that we have not received any signals does not mean that they are not out there, it just means that we have not received signals. We are in no position to say that we know all about the possible methods of communication between the stars.
What if they are still using smoke signals, live under water, have invented some sort of faster than light method, live on a planet that never has a direct line of sight with the earth, or are telepathic. Maybe they don't believe in extraterrestrial beings and see no point in trying to communicate.Just because they live in the same universe does not mean that they are like us in any way. Or maybe they just don't care.

I think that one of the biggest problems would be in the alien home world itself. It is doubtful that very many of the radio type signals leaving the earth are actually being received by anyone out there, so it is doubtful that they even know we are here.
Contrary to what a lot of people believe it is probably not that easy to detect soap opera transmissions over in the next solar system unless they are really trying. To reach over the distance between stars a very high powered, tight bean signal would need to transmitted over a long period of time directly at the target planet for them to detect it and figure out it was a signal to them. But they would need to be listening in the right direction as well. How much would it cost to be either listening for or transmitting these signals. Do you think that the earths economy would support such endeavors?
Then they would have to overcome language barriers first, to translate the data into something recognizable.

The fact that we have not received any signals does not mean that they are not out there, it just means that we have not received signals. — Sir2u

Yes. Or maybe we have received their signals but our systems lack the sensitivity and/or bandwidth to distinguish those signals from the cosmic background noise (e.g. maybe they use neutrinos rather than EM waves). That would also filter us out as still too primitive (e.g. one of many Kardashev Level less-than-1 species) to reveal themselves to.

Yes. Or maybe we have received their signals but our systems lack the sensitivity and/or bandwidth (maybe they use neutrinos rather than EM waves) to distinguish those signals from the cosmic background noise. — 180 Proof

Yes, that is basically what I said to L'éléphant. But it might even be possible that they use fermions. That would be a more appropriate.

They would still know of radio and remember their own days of listening to the skies with radio telescopes. It wouldn't take much to beam powerful radio signals to all the nearby habitable planets.

They would still know of radio and remember their own days of listening to the skies with radio telescopes. It wouldn't take much to beam powerful radio signals to all the nearby habitable planets. — RogueAI

Yes, they probably would.

One question though, would you be interested in investing in an expensive blue-ray machine just in-case a company in Russia might release a movie with that technology in the next 20 years? Or possible buy a wax cylinder manufacturing company in-case some music company plans to release songs on them in a couple of decades.

Maybe they feel the same way.

If they can communicate by fermion or neutrino, it would be trivial to send probes to nearby planets with biosignatures and keep an eye on them.

If they can communicate by fermion or neutrino, it would be trivial to send probes to nearby planets with biosignatures and keep an eye on them. — RogueAI

Just how trivial do you think it might be? The ability to do something like sending probes to other parts of the universe in no way implies the need, want, or even financial capability to do so.

As I asked earlier, are you prepared to spend money on something that might not give any results or benefit?.

There is another good reason that might explain why the have not communicated with us, maybe there goods have convinced them that they are alone in the universe so they are not interest in looking.

I think any space-faring species will be somewhat curious, and any species that has climbed on top of the evolutionary ladder is going to be somewhat concerned with self-preservation, so yes, they're going to want to know that their neighbors are up to and they're going to spend a fair amount of money to find out. They won't send probes to another galaxy, but they would certainly investigate nearby planets with biosignatures.

I think any space-faring species will be somewhat curious, and any species that has climbed on top of the evolutionary ladder is going to be somewhat concerned with self-preservation, so yes, they're going to want to know that their neighbors are up to and they're going to spend a fair amount of money to find out. — RogueAI

Judging other species by human standards is the first mistake, even human tribes have shown to have great differences in their way of thinking, seeing and doing things.

Is there any guarantee that other highly intelligent and knowledgeable species would be space fairing?
Even if the greatest members of an alien species are capable of space travel, there is no guarantee that the rest of the population will let them do it. NASA was almost shut down several times because of the expenses and only a few private ones are running.

If a very intelligent alien species develops on a planet that does not have the natural minerals and elements necessary for space travel, what would they do?

If they developed on a world where there were no predators and that they were at the top of the ladder from day one, would they have defensive reflexes like humans do?

To call humans space fairing is a bit of a misnomer I think, even if Musk make it to Mars in a couple of years.
I know several very intelligent people that have little or no curiosity at all, so we cannot even say that it is common in humans.

They won't send probes to another galaxy, but they would certainly investigate nearby planets with biosignatures. — RogueAI

So you think that it might be possible for life to develop on more that one planet in the same solar system? I did not say that they would look for life in other galaxies, just in other parts of their own.

And one last possibility, how about a very intelligent race that has no appendages. They could quite easily conquer their own world, but operate tool? How would they become technologically advanced? There might be hundreds of planets containing intelligent life out there, why would we be so sure that they can or want to communicate with other species? Maybe there are even others like us, listening to the skies and wondering why no one is calling but do not know how to receive the messages either. I use WhatsApp, you use Telegram, how do we arrange a meeting?

Man should stop thinking the universe runs in his image, cuase it just don't.

My posts are predicated on the aliens you were talking about earlier: aliens who can communicate by fermions and neutrinos. If you're talking about aliens who aren't technologically advanced then obviously none of what I said applies.

Concepts of defense and self-preservation are going to be universal.

Judging other species by human standards is the first mistake ... — Sir2u

:100:

And probably, imo, "they" are not even – are no longer – "species" but instead spacefaring AI probes (operationally independent of their long ago left behind biological makers)..

And probably, imo, "they" are not even – are no longer – "species" but instead spacefaring AI probes (operationally independent of their long ago left behind biological makers).. — 180 Proof

You will be assimilated whether you fucking like it or not. :rofl:

My posts are predicated on the aliens you were talking about earlier: aliens who can communicate by fermions and neutrinos. If you're talking about aliens who aren't technologically advanced then obviously none of what I said applies. — RogueAI

Technical advancement is a funny thing, it tends to go in the direction of needs. On a world that has a high population and a late start in technology, they might be 100% towards feeding and housing their people. I cannot imagine the cost of a tight beam of neutrinos being directed at a distant planet would cheep thing to accomplish for a planet. Even if the know how to do it they would probably spend their resources creating better methods of producing food..

Concepts of defense and self-preservation are going to be universal. — RogueAI

I might agree with self preservation if you agree that it means keeping yourself alive and reproducing. Defense implies there is something to protect from, what if there are no dangers where the super intelligent being live. Would the instinct still develop?

We must look for other explanations for the Fermi paradox, — Linkey

Another reason they don't come looking for us, we only have 2 legs and are not cute enough to be pets. :rofl:

I might agree with self preservation if you agree that it means keeping yourself alive and reproducing. Defense implies there is something to protect from, what if their are no dangers where the super intelligent being live. Would the instinct still develop? — Sir2u

There are always dangers in this universe. Wandering black holes, gamma ray bursts, solar flares, and of course, a possible nearby alien civilization more powerful than oneself.

:nerd: :up:

There are always dangers in this universe. Wandering black holes, gamma ray bursts, solar flares, and of course, a possible nearby alien civilization more powerful than oneself. — RogueAI

Yes indeed, all of those do exist. Not all stars have solar flares as intense as our sun, and it would make for an even more ideal place for life to evolve.
How many times has humanity had to deal with the rest of these dangers? Why would it be different for them?
But I am glad that you think there are others out there, even if you believe that they will be bad guys that we need to defend ourselves from.

This is from Wayfarer's thread.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12247/james-webb-telescope/p1

It could peek into the distant past of 13.7 B years. — L'éléphant

It is seeing whole galaxies, not planets, much less detecting radio waves coming from them.

I agree with everything you said.

I tend to wonder about why so many believe technologically advanced life is SO probable, that we're like to find it (or vice versa). Are they assuming teleology- that intelligent life is "meant to be?" Are they overly influenced by watching science fiction?

Are they overly influenced by watching science fiction? — Relativist

No doubt. \\//_ :nerd:

Are they overly influenced by watching science fiction? — Relativist

I read and watch a lot of Sci-Fi, but I try hard to remember that they are fiction, even the hard Sci-Fi stories based on real facts.

Faster than light travel and jumping through hyperspace are fantasy. And much SF makes the silly assumption life is ubiquitous, and that it would tend to produce beings anything like us. That said, I love fantasy.

Faster than light travel and jumping through hyperspace are fantasy. — Relativist

No idea about that, but just because we don't understand it does not mean it is not possible. We did not even know there were other galaxies until a 100 years ago.

And much SF makes the silly assumption life is ubiquitous, and that it would tend to produce beings anything like us. — Relativist

How much life there is out there, I have no idea either. So many movies and books have beings that are literally monsters, blobs, massive spiders and scorpion like things, and the drive space ships with tools and instruments that look as if they are made for humans.

If you think about it, humanoid is the ideal type of being for developing technology. Crab like pincers, sucker cups, long claws and so on would probably not get far inventing tools let alone high tech stuff.

Hands of some sort I think would be a necessary part of tool development.

No idea about that, but just because we don't understand it does not mean it is not possible. We did not even know there were other galaxies until a 100 years ago. — Sir2u

It's logically possible, just like it's logically possible we could work magic, or summon demons, if we just had the right incantation. There's really not much difference, when we start considering possibilities that contradict science that is as well established as relativity.

How much life there is out there, I have no idea either. — Sir2u

The best guess is that conditions need to be similar to earth's: goldilocks zone orbiting a star liquid water, heavy elements in sufficient abundance.

And that's just for life. We humans are the unlikely consequence of a series of environmental/evolutionary accidents- so the probability of life with similar intelligence seems quite low.

Even if there may be life with such intelligence, it's not inevitable that it would be inclined toward science and technology - particularly the relevant technology that would make itself known, or travel - instead of making its lives richer in other ways, or self-destructing (like we might).