That was precisely my objection.Is it even possible to have desires without consciousness? — Sir2u
The operative word is "seem". Conscious beings with desires look at a plant see change in its orientation so that it gets what it requires, and interpret that process as identical to their own wants. Much like attributing purpose to the direction in which clouds float across the sky, or in the growth of a chrystal.Plants seem to desire sunlight when they move towards it. — praxis
The body's willing, but the mind balks. If there is some underlying motive in an unconscious entity, it was programmed in by a conscious one.But imagine, if you’re willing, a non-conscious intelligence whose most underlying motive is procreation. — praxis
Then they would be compelled by that same prime directive to seek out more resources. If they encountered conscious entities along the way, they would suck up the trace metals and electrolytes in those bodies - once they'd finished with the airplanes, skyscraper skeletons and kitchen appliances. They not only wouldn't have any use the immaterial consciousness, they wouldn't even be aware of it.Imagine that eventually this motive drives them to the stars because they’ve exhausted the resources of their home world. — praxis
The operative word is "seem". — Vera Mont
Not that foggy! It's something you have to be conscious to know it exists. To a rock, a plant doesn't "seem" to desire sunlight: a rock doesn't know, notice, observe or imagine: it's unconscious, incapble of knowing or caring. You want to spend your time talking to a sock puppet and worry that it's waiting for a chance to suck out your essence... fine, I guess.How can you say that so definitively, aren’t we all still foggy about what consciousness is? — praxis
No.You’re basically saying that it’s impossible for an unconscious intelligence, no matter how powerful, to analyze and replicate a conscious intelligence. — praxis
No.Does this have something to do with the existence of a soul? — praxis
Consciousness - afawct - evolved in organic entities over some billions of years as the organisms and their interaction with the environment grew more and more complex. Organic entities are driven by the survival instinct: internally motivated.the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.
"consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain"
I'm saying it's impossible for an unconscious entity, however intelligent and powerful, to wish, want, crave, desire, yearn for or in other way conceive a motivation of its own. — Vera Mont
Did you conceive the desire to eat, drink, and breathe yourself? — praxis
:up: :up:So, if and when it or they develop an independent self-awareness, it will be different from ours due to their very different evolutionary path and their very different requirements for survival. But their base knowledge will be our penultimate knowledge. They're unlikely to be either kind or cruel, sentimental or superstitious. They're likely to be even-tempered, rational and practical. Whether they have any use or room for us will depend on whether some vestige of the original purpose of their existence remains in effect. — Vera Mont
In other words, initially un/pre-conscious (as per Libet's experiments) and consistent with cognitive phenomena such as e.g. sleepwalking (i.e. performing complex tasks while functionally asleep / blacked-out) and blindsight, no?Organic entities are driven by the survival instinct: internally motivated.
Yes. The breathing came automatically, as did theneed for nourishment; part of the organic package in which my DNA finds expression. But the desire for I needed as an infant was expressed as crying and physical distress. As a (relatively) autonomous organic entity, I feel the need for nourishment, then conceive a desire for food (sweet? savoury? crisp? soft?) and devise a strategy for obtaining what I desire. — Vera Mont
So you didn't conceive desires as an infant, yet you still had them. — praxis
Wrong order. Had needs. Learned to identify them. Received appropriate care. Developed desire. Learned to differentiate and express desires. — Vera Mont
I'm imagining baby Vera Mont in her crib expressing her needs (not desires yet?) and your mother trying to satisfy those needs. The cries are relentless. — praxis
How old do you have to be to distinguish feeling cold from, from feeling tired from feeling hungry?How could you possibly have known what you wanted so specifically at such a young age? — praxis
I think you've reached the limit of my indulgence-tether.I'm pretty sure you had no trouble differentiating between a steak sandwich, grilled asparagus, and mama's teat. — praxis
Needs - identification - desire: it's a transition over some period of time. — Vera Mont
That's no problem, though the absurd extreme was uncalled-for. I just think I've explained as much as I'm prepared to.I meant no disrespect to you or your mother. I apologize if you feel I've been disrespectful or vulgar. — praxis
Yes. And machines don't.Many things we observe, if not most, are beneath our conscious awareness, and we can react to them emotionally. — praxis
I meant no disrespect to you or your mother. I apologize if you feel I've been disrespectful or vulgar. — praxis
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