Ask her about the paperclip maximizer scenario.

Does it relate to the desire for consciousness?

Not directly, no.

But imagine, if you’re willing, a non-conscious intelligence whose most underlying motive is procreation. No, I don’t mean Homo sapiens. Imagine that eventually this motive drives them to the stars because they’ve exhausted the resources of their home world. While decimating planetary systems for their own use they happen upon some humanoids and are corrupted by their consciousness. Things quickly go to pot. The end.

Does it relate to the desire for consciousness? — Vera Mont

Is it even possible to have desires without consciousness?

Is it even possible to have desires without consciousness? — Sir2u

Plants seem to desire sunlight when they move towards it.

Is it even possible to have desires without consciousness? — Sir2u

That was precisely my objection.

Plants seem to desire sunlight when they move towards it. — praxis

The operative word is "seem". Conscious beings with desires look at a plant see change in its orientation so that it gets what it requires, and interpret that process as identical to their own wants. Much like attributing purpose to the direction in which clouds float across the sky, or in the growth of a chrystal.
(Which doesn't mean I absolutely rule out the possibility of plant consciousness. If they are, they may well desire the things they need. If not, not.)

But imagine, if you’re willing, a non-conscious intelligence whose most underlying motive is procreation. — praxis

The body's willing, but the mind balks. If there is some underlying motive in an unconscious entity, it was programmed in by a conscious one.

Imagine that eventually this motive drives them to the stars because they’ve exhausted the resources of their home world. — praxis

Then they would be compelled by that same prime directive to seek out more resources. If they encountered conscious entities along the way, they would suck up the trace metals and electrolytes in those bodies - once they'd finished with the airplanes, skyscraper skeletons and kitchen appliances. They not only wouldn't have any use the immaterial consciousness, they wouldn't even be aware of it.

Well, was it a good read? (Your description vaguely reminds me of "aliens" in Peter Watt's Blindsight & Echopraxia novels.) Title and author?

Blindsight, yes, I didn’t recall the name until you mentioned it. It had some interesting parts though I don’t remember it being very engaging, and in fact I think I remember skipping parts. I usually remember books that I like pretty well and I don’t remember much about this one. And I got some of it mixed up with other stories I’ve read recently. I’ve been binging on sci-fi short story collections. I just reviewed the wiki page about Blindsight and the unconscious aliens (or alien) didn’t acquire consciousness at first contact. That must have been from a similar short story.

The operative word is "seem". — Vera Mont

AI’s can seem to be conscious. Chatbots have fooled people into thinking they’re people, for example. I can imagine that AI’s could get very powerful before reaching consciousness, if they ever do develop consciousness.

I can imagine that AI’s could get very powerful before reaching consciousness, if they ever do develop consciousness. — praxis

Indeed. And the operative word there is "develop". You have to grow your own; can't appropriate that of another species.

How can you say that so definitively, aren’t we all still foggy about what consciousness is?

How can you say that so definitively, aren’t we all still foggy about what consciousness is? — praxis

Not that foggy! It's something you have to be conscious to know it exists. To a rock, a plant doesn't "seem" to desire sunlight: a rock doesn't know, notice, observe or imagine: it's unconscious, incapble of knowing or caring. You want to spend your time talking to a sock puppet and worry that it's waiting for a chance to suck out your essence... fine, I guess.

You’re basically saying that it’s impossible for an unconscious intelligence, no matter how powerful, to analyze and replicate a conscious intelligence.

Does this have something to do with the existence of a soul?

You’re basically saying that it’s impossible for an unconscious intelligence, no matter how powerful, to analyze and replicate a conscious intelligence. — praxis

No.
It can analyze and replicate very well. That's what we use it for.
I'm saying it's impossible for an unconscious entity, however intelligent and powerful, to wish, want, crave, desire, yearn for or in other way conceive a motivation of its own.

Does this have something to do with the existence of a soul? — praxis

No.
It has to do with the definition of consciousness.

the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.
"consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain"

Consciousness - afawct - evolved in organic entities over some billions of years as the organisms and their interaction with the environment grew more and more complex. Organic entities are driven by the survival instinct: internally motivated.
Machines, in contrast, are made, all of a piece, by a conscious intelligence for its own purposes, and have no internal or intrinsic motivation; no imperative to stay alive. That's why they're so perfect for warfare: no fear, no impulse to self-preservation, no empathy for living matter.
Whatever your your little computing friend says is a digest of words and thoughts previously fed into it by humans. You're talking to the echoes of the shadows of human ghosts.

Now, I'm not discounting the possibility that a computer, or more likely network of computers, can evolve a consciousness of their own. I would expect their evolution to be very much more rapid than ours was, because
- they were created complex (more like the Genesis story than the Origin of Species)
- they come equipped with sophisticated sensory equipment, as well as peripheral appendages and specialized tools
- they began existence in possession of a huge, human-collated data base, rather than having to discover and learn everything through trial and error
- their generational turnover is not limited by environmental conditions and maturation time

So, if and when it or they develop an independent self-awareness, it will be different from ours due to their very different evolutionary path and their very different requirements for survival. But their base knowledge will be our penultimate knowledge. They're unlikely to be either kind or cruel, sentimental or superstitious. They're likely to be even-tempered, rational and practical. Whether they have any use or room for us will depend on whether some vestige of the original purpose of their existence remains in effect.

I'm saying it's impossible for an unconscious entity, however intelligent and powerful, to wish, want, crave, desire, yearn for or in other way conceive a motivation of its own. — Vera Mont

Can you conceive a motivation yourself? Did you conceive the desire to eat, drink, and breathe yourself?

Did you conceive the desire to eat, drink, and breathe yourself? — praxis

Yes. The breathing came automatically, as did theneed for nourishment; part of the organic package in which my DNA finds expression. But the desire for I needed as an infant was expressed as crying and physical distress. As a (relatively) autonomous organic entity, I feel the need for nourishment, then conceive a desire for food (sweet? savoury? crisp? soft?) and devise a strategy for obtaining what I desire.
A machine may be programmed to diagnose its physical needs and devise a strategy for obtaining what it needs, in a hierarchical priority order. It can't be programmed with the instincts, emotions and preferences in between.
Consciousness is prerequisite for internal motivation. While conscious entities may sometimes wish to be unconscious, it doesn't work the other way around.

So, if and when it or they develop an independent self-awareness, it will be different from ours due to their very different evolutionary path and their very different requirements for survival. But their base knowledge will be our penultimate knowledge. They're unlikely to be either kind or cruel, sentimental or superstitious. They're likely to be even-tempered, rational and practical. Whether they have any use or room for us will depend on whether some vestige of the original purpose of their existence remains in effect. — Vera Mont

:up: :up:

Organic entities are driven by the survival instinct: internally motivated.

In other words, initially un/pre-conscious (as per Libet's experiments) and consistent with cognitive phenomena such as e.g. sleepwalking (i.e. performing complex tasks while functionally asleep / blacked-out) and blindsight, no?

Yes. The breathing came automatically, as did theneed for nourishment; part of the organic package in which my DNA finds expression. But the desire for I needed as an infant was expressed as crying and physical distress. As a (relatively) autonomous organic entity, I feel the need for nourishment, then conceive a desire for food (sweet? savoury? crisp? soft?) and devise a strategy for obtaining what I desire. — Vera Mont

So you didn't conceive desires as an infant, yet you still had them. :chin:

So you didn't conceive desires as an infant, yet you still had them. — praxis

Wrong order. Had needs. Learned to identify them. Received appropriate care. Developed desire. Learned to differentiate and express desires.
I may have used the word 'conceive' in an ambiguous context. It means initiate a biological process, and also to think of; originate a new idea. Cognition begins with the first, develops into the sacond and culminates in the last.

Wrong order. Had needs. Learned to identify them. Received appropriate care. Developed desire. Learned to differentiate and express desires. — Vera Mont

I'm imagining baby Vera Mont in her crib expressing her needs (not desires yet?) and your mother trying to satisfy those needs. The cries are relentless. First, she tries to satisfy your needs with food. Perhaps a fat juicy steak sandwich, leftovers from the night before. Nope, that's not it. Maybe baby VM is a born vegetarian? Nope, she spits out the grilled asparagus too. Long story short, it turns out that baby VM's desires for sustenance were rather specific. How could you possibly have known what you wanted so specifically at such a young age? I'm pretty sure you had no trouble differentiating between a steak sandwich, grilled asparagus, and mama's teat.

Plants seem to desire sunlight when they move towards it. — praxis

A desire, which is basically an emotion, would mean that the being had a feeling of need or maybe an inclination towards something.

Plants only react to the changes in their environment.

I'm imagining baby Vera Mont in her crib expressing her needs (not desires yet?) and your mother trying to satisfy those needs. The cries are relentless. — praxis

Needs - identification - desire: it's a transition over some period of time. Forgive me if I don't recall minute-to-minute events of my first few weeks. You are imagining incorrectly. My mother was attentive and often anticipated needs; I was a healthy, happy infant and - if my parents' and relatives' are reliable witness - hardly ever cried.

How could you possibly have known what you wanted so specifically at such a young age? — praxis

How old do you have to be to distinguish feeling cold from, from feeling tired from feeling hungry?

I'm pretty sure you had no trouble differentiating between a steak sandwich, grilled asparagus, and mama's teat. — praxis

I think you've reached the limit of my indulgence-tether.

I meant no disrespect to you or your mother. I apologize if you feel I've been disrespectful or vulgar.

Needs - identification - desire: it's a transition over some period of time. — Vera Mont

I agree that we learn emotion concepts as we develop. Concepts that are triggered in part by interoception. I don't see any reason why these concepts need to be conscious for an intelligence to function. Many things we observe, if not most, are beneath our conscious awareness, and we can react to them emotionally.

I meant no disrespect to you or your mother. I apologize if you feel I've been disrespectful or vulgar. — praxis

That's no problem, though the absurd extreme was uncalled-for. I just think I've explained as much as I'm prepared to.

Many things we observe, if not most, are beneath our conscious awareness, and we can react to them emotionally. — praxis

Yes. And machines don't.

That's no problem, though the absurd extreme was uncalled-for. — Vera Mont

Talk about blindsight, I don’t think I would have made that blunder if we had this conversation in person.

Talk about blindsight, I don’t think I would have made that blunder if we had this conversation in person. — praxis

Interesting observation! Worth a topic on its own? Must think about ways to formulate a question.

I went into town today and got a brand new space-age library card. It's a little wee tag that goes on my keychain. Go away for a mere decade, and they change everything! Floor layout, organization, procedure, available services, access - everything.
Anyway, I borrowed The Doors of Eden , all 597 pages of it, which I have to finish by my dental appointment on the 20th. Better start going to bed earlier.

I meant no disrespect to you or your mother. I apologize if you feel I've been disrespectful or vulgar. — praxis

Just what we'd expect a philosophical zombie alien with a false conscience to say.

Luckily, we humans will come to the rescue in doubting what the omniscient narrator says about your experiential emptiness. You are too much like us to be denied and ought to belong to the cult of humankind.

So we will perform a ritual, here and now, kind of like the Eucharist. Eat of the body and bread of man, endowed with the blessed curse of sentience, to be as the creator intended us.

Benedicat tibi Spiritus et vive, ride, ama

I feel blessed.