If there is a God….. — Igitur
God likely doesn't care if you follow a particular religion, but only if you act according to the correct concepts — Igitur
declares that all individuals, who sincerely seek truth and goodness, and strive to follow the moral truths they know, can respond positively to God's grace, albeit unknowingly or indirectly, even if they do so through other religious traditions and/or are not explicitly aware of Jesus Christ. In other words, God's grace, including the benefits of Christ's sacrifice, are not confined to the boundaries of any particular religious tradition or by our awareness or acceptance of Christian doctrine. Instead, anyone who lives a life of love and goodness, guided by the moral teachings found in Christianity, even if they don't consciously identify with it, is implicitly united with Christ and can be saved through him, implying that non-Christians can still be recipients of God's grace and attain salvation.
What are your thoughts? — Igitur
I reason that if so, God likely doesn't care if you follow a particular religion, but only if you act according to the correct concepts — Igitur
I'm puzzled about what you mean by trying religions out. You must mean more than going through some motions - something closer to taking them seriously. But the only ideas even close to religious that I've been able to take seriously (since I abandoned the church I was brought up in) don't require taking seriously the idea of a God or gods. Pascal seems to think that it is possible to do something like trying Christianity out, but he believes that I will end up believing it. I think he may be right; at least, it is a possible outcome. So even "acting as if" Christianity is true requires at least accepting that adopting it would be a good thing.Given this, it would make sense to pick popular religions and try them out, learning as much as you can, and giving each a chance to display their truth to you. When you find a religion you think contains truth, you practice it but remain skeptical, still searching other religions for more/more relevant truths. — Igitur
Given this, it would make sense to pick popular religions and try them out, learning as much as you can, and giving each a chance to display their truth to you. When you find a religion you think contains truth, you practice it but remain skeptical, still searching other religions for more/more relevant truths.
— Igitur
I'm puzzled about what you mean by trying religions out — Ludwig V
I guess I can get this gist of the joke from the general context. I don't remember much about the movie. Was that an actual scene, or something that you imagined?I’m picturing Woody Allen trying out Christianity by eating Wonder bread with mayo in Hannah and her Sisters. — Joshs
This is a good idea, I think. It does have a few issues, though. One is that a lot of belief in religions comes from personal experiences, and it might be too easy to write off someone’s religion as ridiculous if you don’t try it first.Instead of a religion, ask if God matters. If we assume God matters, and/or assume we matter to God, then instead of seeking a religion, you seek a saint, or a wise, mystic sage, one who lives a religion. If you find God in that saint, then you might look to the religion that saint practices, and see if you see for yourself why that religion can be lived by that saint, and why that religion might help you become a saint yourself. — Fire Ologist
That basically excludes Buddhism, which is not predicated on there being a God. It might be better phrased ‘if there is a higher truth’ or something along those lines — Wayfarer
Forgive me for my specific interpretation. I don’t think my view on this (or, if there is a God, the truth of it) actually matters to the post, but I’m willing to share my justification.You seem to hold to a fairly conventional idea of a god. A single god? Why not 2 or 16? A god who is anthropomorphic and pays attention to us and has 'correct concepts'? Why not an indifferent god such as the one of deism? Why not a cosmic consciousness version of theism, such as held by William James?
What reason do you have for believing in your particular account of god? — Tom Storm
It's simply not practical to think of trying out all the sects of Christianity or any of the others — Ludwig V
Maybe. I guess I would respond to this by saying that this would just be another experiment. Assuming you care about religious truth, values, or community, you would probably also attempt to practice religions (which likely brings to you back to nature anyways).The most logical path to religion, or God, or the spirits, or whatever mystical thing you're seeking, is a wide berth around churches. Those vast piles of wasted stone, timber and human effort do not contain a deity or a soul. Walk in the woods on a May morning or an orchard in September twilight or across a meadow on a hot, still July afternoon, then rest in the shade of a viburnum. If you're ever going to have a spiritual experience and find some kind of truth, that's where you'll find it. — Vera Mont
orgive me for my specific interpretation. I don’t think my view on this (or, if there is a God, the truth of it) actually matters to the post, but I’m willing to share my justification.
Honestly, I just defaulted to a monotheistic human-like God concept because that is the God I believe in, but I agree that an open mind is important when discussing this. — Igitur
Maybe. I guess I would respond to this by saying that this would just be another experiment. — Igitur
I have no idea how religious truth differs from common garden variety truth or personal truth, so I can't possibly care about it. Values and community do not require religious faith or adherence. I certainly would not attempt to practice one just for appearances - unless there was a threat of persecution, which there often is, and in which case deception is perfectly acceptable.Assuming you care about religious truth, values, or community, you would probably also attempt to practice religions — Igitur
Yes, and afaik it's this ...Does it matter what the primary function of religious thinking is? — Igitur
ergo[H]istory amply shows, imo, that 'religion' is required only (or at least mostly) for herding sheep, prophets making profits and sanguinary propitiating/martyring/scapegoating. — 180 Proof
It depends what you mean by primary, and the point of view.Does it matter what the primary function of religious thinking is? — Igitur
I think you understate this. Religion is not merely about truth, but about how to live. The practice is the point, really. The truth is just there to give a basis for the practice. That's why Bhuddhism, Stoicism, etc. all figure in this discussion.Assuming you care about religious truth, values, or community, you would probably also attempt to practice religions — Igitur
Yes, also for all of that. If religion is primarily how I am to live, others will use it for their purposes. So will I. If religion is primarily about social control (manipulation), I will demand of it that it tells me how to live.[H]istory amply shows, imo, that 'religion' is required only (or at least mostly) for herding sheep, prophets making profits and sanguinary propitiating/martyring/scapegoating. — 180 Proof
Yes. That's why it is perfectly reasonable to go for satisficing rather than maximizing. In other words, something that is good enough, rather than something that is perfect. (Your suggestion of looking at popular brands is close to this.) In addition, I am bound to start from where I am, that is, by evaluating the religions available in the community I happen to be born in. There's no reason to look further afield if I can manage with what is nearest to me. I don't know that objective absolute truth is the most important criterion. Something that's near enough will do.This seems like the most important thing to respond to, the idea that it is unreasonable to try out so many sects of religions. — Igitur
That's perfectly reasonable. Except that the ideal is impractical. Everyone has to make their living somehow. Independence is a mirage. We have to settle for an independent mind, which is not impossible, though difficult - and requires courage.b) The moral advice or ruling must enjoy consensus amongst independently judging scholars. These scholars must not be on someone's "payroll". — Tarskian
That's perfectly reasonable. Except that the ideal is impractical. Everyone has to make their living somehow. Independence is a mirage. We have to settle for an independent mind, which is not impossible, though difficult - and requires courage. — Ludwig V
I can see that. The confessional is a possible example - except, of course, are priests independent? It depends on how you rate their religion.Anonymous moral advice is the best, actually. — Tarskian
There's no escape from the responsibility of deciding who to ask and, in the end, what to do.It is the same for other types of advice, such as investment advice or relationship advice. They won't tell you the truth if they simply can't. — Tarskian
Given this, it would make sense to pick popular religions and try them out, learning as much as you can, and giving each a chance to display their truth to you. When you find a religion you think contains truth, you practice it but remain skeptical, still searching other religions for more/more relevant truths. — Igitur
That's very likely true. A comparative - and dispassionate - study would be very interesting.I suspect you'll come to find, e.g., that the ideal Christian is quite different from the ideal Jew and that different religions contain different visions for humanity. — BitconnectCarlos
I agree. This is definitely a lot of the purpose of religion. Most of the “truth” you get is about how to act anyways. The concepts lead to actions, which supposedly lead to some result. Thank you for the clarifications.The practice is the point, really. The truth is just there to give a basis for the practice. That's why Bhuddhism, Stoicism, etc. all figure in this discussion. — Ludwig V
. I suspect you'll come to find, e.g., that the ideal Christian is quite different from the ideal Jew and that different religions contain different visions for humanity. — BitconnectCarlos
But it also seems to me that we might also find that certain traits of human character might find recognizably similar expression in each religion - or at least those that are big enough to have internal divisions or sects. The most obvious example is fundamentalism, which seems to me to be instantly recognizable in all the major religions — Ludwig V
That's a good recommendation. One should be sensitive to differences as well as similarities.This is likely true. Maybe the best path is to merge the most valuable ideals. Don’t confine yourself to one set of concepts. — Igitur
That's odd. Many people think that trying to organize people is like trying to organize ferrets - very difficult and any organization you do achieve rapidly disintegrates. That fits better with my lived experience. But maybe you live in a different world from me.Modern affairs and lived experience are telling me that people are broadly still sheep that need herding. — Lionino
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