If you've decided to end your life, for either a rational or emotional reason, that's hardly a handicap.

Being purely rational, I do not have opinions. — tim wood

Pure rationality is a matter of form, not of content. An opinion can be rational in the sense of being logically valid and yet wrong.

All of the reasons for or against suicide (including "moral" reasons) come up short against the opacity of death. That is, we don't know what happens when we die. Those who have a strong stance on suicide almost necessarily have a strong stance on what happens when we die. The only caveat is that someone who is suffering may believe that anything is better than their current suffering, and hence they may wish to commit suicide regardless of what happens when we die. — Leontiskos

Given that we certainly do not know what happens to us after we die, whereas it seems most plausible to think that nothing at all happens, it would seem that the only objection to suicide would be lost opportunities within the ambit of this life.

If some people feel incapable of going on, unable to convince themselves that things might improve for them in the future, then there would seem to be little scope for argument against suicide in those kinds of cases.

If some people feel incapable of going on, unable to convince themselves that things might improve for them in the future, then there would seem to be little scope for argument against suicide in those kinds of cases. — Janus

There I'd disagree.

I'm not sure how to put it though, other than Camus' essay -- a kind of defiance and rebellion against the bleak future, a rolling of the bolder knowing that eventually you'll slip, a heroism in the face of the absurd.

Though I like to tamper the notion of heroism down a bit, that's where I'd think of as a rational place to argue against suicide, philosophically.

So yours is a kind of 'virtue ethics' argument? I think it comes down to what people care about, though, and addressing an argument that one should put courage first to someone who just doesn't care about such ideals would seem to be futile at best, and arrogant at worst.

Oh, yes. I'm not thinking in terms of putting an argument, but reflecting.

OK, I see...and fair enough.

Camus' essay is still my favorite philosophical reflection on suicide.

THERE is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is
not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest— whether
or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories—comes afterwards.

I also have read and like Camus' essays. although many years ago. The part I question there is whether there is a definitive and general answer to the question about whether life is worth living—that is I tend to think the answer may be different for different individuals.

If you've decided to end your life, for either a rational or emotional reason, that's hardly a handicap. — Vera Mont

Some people plead for mercy to the spiritual overlord while others abuse antidepressant and anti-anxiety medication. By the way, there is also no opioids overdose crisis in countries where people prefer the spiritual route:

https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/opioids/prevention/painperception.html

The United States makes up 4.4% of the world’s population, and consumes over 80% of the world’s opioids.

Antidepressants, anti-anxiety medication, and opioids are the rational solution to a spiritual problem. There simply is no rational reason for life itself. Therefore, the only truly rational solution for the rational meaninglessness of life is to medicate it away.

It is not just that the unbelievers do not want children. They are even actively self-deleting. In the meanwhile, we pray to the spiritual Lord, and carry on, with or without the unbelievers.

I agree there

Antidepressants, anti-anxiety medication, and opioids are the rational solution to a spiritual problem. There simply is no rational reason for life itself. Therefore, the only truly rational solution for the rational meaninglessness of life is to medicate it away.

It is not just that the unbelievers do not want children. They are even actively self-deleting. In the meanwhile, we pray to the spiritual Lord, and carry on, with or without the unbelievers. — Tarskian

This has nothing to do with suicide at all.

Judging whether life is or is
not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy.

In the abstract, yes. On the personal level, the question becomes, is my life, in its present state worth living? It comes down from Life to my life, from Philosophy to personal experience, from the general to the specific - and that's a world of difference.

This has nothing to do with suicide at all. — Moliere

The opioids crisis is a suicide crisis.

I'm a person with clinical depression. And anxiety! It's a fun time.

There are people with these symptoms who are spiritual. Ergo, It's not a spiritual problem

Suicide is different from opiods. Yes?

There are people with these symptoms who are spiritual. Ergo, It's not a spiritual problem — Moliere

Empirical studies suggest otherwise:

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2011.11091407

In this issue, Miller and colleagues present data from a longitudinal study of offspring from a sample of depressed and nondepressed subjects to determine if religion or spirituality influenced the onset and course of major depression over the 10 years of follow-up (1). They found, among individuals who affiliated as either Protestant or Catholic, that subjects who reported religion or spirituality as highly important were 76% less likely to experience an episode of major depression during the follow-up. In contrast, religious attendance and denomination had no impact. The protective effect was experienced primarily among subjects at high risk because their parents experienced depression.

But then again, I agree that the only truly rational solution to the problem is medication.

But then again, I agree that the only truly rational solution to the problem is medication. — Tarskian

Cool.

I'm pro-medication!

Though I want to push back a little and say that's not the only true rational solution.

I don't know if the solution is exactly rational even, though it helps me so I'm fine with the solution.

I only know people who are spiritual who struggle with these issues, and so I can't say that it's a spiritual problem.

'Spiritual' is a pretty vague term. Someone who was steeped in the dogma of a particular denomination in childhood carries a load of beliefs and attitudes and assumptions of which he is only partly aware. They may not seek medical help for depression, or even call what they feel depression, because they're trained to seek spiritual help instead. And not just mental health issues; physical ones, as well. People do try to 'pray away' an illness, meditate their way through chronic pain, approach faith healers with their injuries. But they are less likely to commit suicide if they believe that the suffering on earth must end sometime; in hell, it never does.

After all, from a rational standpoint, suicide is a disproportionately (ir-ratio ... absurd) permanent solution to a temporary problem. :smirk: — 180 Proof

Suicidal folk can see it quite differently. Trust me. The problems are not "temporary" until their gone. Death is believed to provide that.

No doubt, yet the act is not rational (i.e. false hope).

Suicidal folk can see it quite differently. Trust me. The problems are not "temporary" until their gone. Death is believed to provide that. — creativesoul

That is why there have never been atheist societies in history. They don't last long enough to make it into the history books.

No doubt, yet the act is not rational (i.e. false hope). — 180 Proof

I'm not sure I understand that.

If the person believes the only way to rid themselves of misery is to end their own life, and they choose to commit suicide, then that is a completely rational choice. I do not see how false hope plays a role here my friend. If one ceases to exist at death, and misery requires one to persist, then their hope to end the misery and suffering by virtue of committing suicide will be well grounded, and their belief/hope that death ends misery... true.

That said, I suspect there are - sometimes - multiple other ways to rid oneself of misery, but that is definitely context dependent.

That is why there have never been atheist societies in history. They don't last long enough to make it into the history books. — Tarskian

I question what counts as a non atheist society.

* deleted pointless response

If the person believes the only way to rid themselves of misery is to end their own life, and they choose to commit suicide, then that is a completely rational choice. I do not see how false hope plays a role here — creativesoul

The hope is that all suffering will end with life. It's false if there is a judgmental afterlife, in which suicide is against the law.

That said, I suspect there are - sometimes - multiple other ways to rid oneself of misery, but that is definitely context dependent. — creativesoul

Sometimes there are other means - or would be, if they were made available to the person contemplating death. But there are situations in which that person is powerless to affect change in their circumstances. (I'm thinking prisoner in some benighted country or terminally ill or catastrophically injured patient. those are extreme situations, but they're the simple fact of life for many thousands.)

If the person believes the only way to rid themselves of misery is to end their own life, and they choose to commit suicide, then that is a completely rational choice. I do not see how false hope plays a role here
— creativesoul
The hope is that all suffering will end with life. It's false if there is a judgmental afterlife, in which suicide is against the law. — Vera Mont

Agreed, if there is some judgmental afterlife.

However, I was simply pointing out by anecdote that suicide is not always irrational, which is about being well grounded, justified, and/or arrived at from valid reasoning. That is quite distinct from whether or not the decision/reasoning was based upon true belief/premises. There are other stories as well.

Samurai will fall on their own sword rather than to be dishonored by virtue of being killed by an enemy. In that culture, it is most honorable to do so. Kamikaze pilots performed honorably according to the cultural mores as well. Suicide is not always irrational. That's the only point I was making.

That said, I suspect there are - sometimes - multiple other ways to rid oneself of misery, but that is definitely context dependent.
— creativesoul
Sometimes there are other means - or would be, if they were made available to the person contemplating death. But there are situations in which that person is powerless to affect change in their circumstances. (I'm thinking prisoner in some benighted country or terminally ill or catastrophically injured patient. those are extreme situations, but they're the simple fact of life for many thousands.)

Yup.

Suicide is not always irrational. That's the only point I was making. — creativesoul

You don't have to convince me! While I would not want to live in a culture that values 'honour' -whatever they think that means - over life and happiness, I have my own exit strategy in case of certain foreseeable eventualities.

Suicide is not always irrational. That's the only point I was making.
— creativesoul

You don't have to convince me! While I would not want to live in a culture that values 'honour' -whatever they think that means - over life and happiness, I have my own exit strategy in case of certain foreseeable eventualities. — Vera Mont

No worries. Convincing you wasn't the aim. Clearly making the case was.

:wink:

'preciate it!

suicide is not always irrational — creativesoul

Suicide is deemed a perfectly rational response to deal with an environment that inspires absurdism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

Absurdism is the philosophical theory that the universe is irrational and meaningless. It states that trying to find meaning leads people into a conflict with the world. Absurdism claims that existence as a whole is absurd.

Various possible responses to deal with absurdism and its impact have been suggested. The three responses discussed in the traditional absurdist literature are suicide, religious belief in a higher purpose, and rebellion against the absurd.

All you need, is a situation that is exceptionally difficult and/or hopeless at first glance, for any a-spiritual individual to seriously consider such final solution. It is an absolutely rational conclusion. That is why it is so predictable.

In that case, it is often too late in the game to teach this individual any "religious belief in a higher purpose" while this person will already have tried and failed a "rebellion against the absurd".

If the person believes ... — creativesoul

... but does not know because she cannot know. Her mere "belief" – desperate guess – is an unwarranted hope, or fantasy (i.e. ideation¹) – thus, the "choice" to kill oneself might be valid and yet unsound; and often is unavoidable, even involuntary.

suicide is not always irrational — creativesoul

Perhaps, but my point is that suicide is always either unsound (choice) or involuntary (abject / pathological).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidal_ideation [1]