this proxy war — Mikie
Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption and abuse of power, the influence of Russia and oligarchs, police brutality, human rights violations,(29)(30) and repressive anti-protest laws.(29) — Revolution of Dignity (Wikipedia)
If it turns out the US was involved in this attack, and I honestly find that quite plausible (even though it's far from certain what happened), we are looking at a new low in western foreign politics - an all-time low, perhaps - and it would be further evidence that the United States is looking to escalate the conflict. — Tzeentch
supporting the Nazis — boethius
Hum...
Paradoxically—at least for purveyors of Kremlin propaganda, which holds that Ukrainians have been oppressing ethnic Russians—most Azov members are in fact Russian speakers and disproportionally hail from the Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine — neomac
The West can’t reasonably troubleshoot everything the Russian can use as a pretext. They do not lack creativity and can literally spin anything in their media (as we have seen, the Isis-K terrorist attack is readily associated to Ukraine, and do you remember the "bioweapons labs" in Ukraine?), while the West can’t do much about it no matter what it does (https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis/). — neomac
Reiterating (again), Russian officials claim that Kyiv is a Nazi regime, and Ukraine is to be deNazified and demilitarized. That's one pillar of their justification, and it's nonsense lapped up by the gullible and susceptible to Kremlin story-telling. — jorndoe
Do you have a list of Azov members and where they come from? — boethius
Probably a better indication of where support for these groups draws from is the Svoboda's election results.
Here's a map for 2019: — boethius
West wants to provoke a war with Russia then you need to back the most radical elements of society. — boethius
If you don't want the war, then it's quite easy to make support contingent on concrete reductions of Nazis, and if Ukraine doesn't achieve that, well then no support, no weapons, no hundreds of billions of dollars if you get attacked. — boethius
You're presuming the West owes Ukraine something come-what-may and so if Weapons find there way to Nazis despite trying to make that "illegal" then there's nothing that can be done, we all just have to throw our hands in the air and just accept the situation. That's not the case, we could send no weapons at all. The West doesn't owe Ukraine any weapons at all. — boethius
And theNazis areNazi-propaganda is important to understand the war — boethius
actually Westernisation was the Western way to also “denazify” Ukraine, while Russia has no problems to support neo-nazi militia if they are pro-Russian — neomac
the US is waging a proxy war against Russia that Ukraine is being caught up in" is about as misleading (or helpful/relevant) as "North Korea / Iran waging proxy war against Ukraine" — the Kremlin started the war against Ukraine whom are defending (including what they wanted) — so, misdirection or "blindness" or something — jorndoe
It is a proxy war between the US and Russia. Easy to see why. — Mikie
"the US is waging a proxy war against Russia that Ukraine is being caught up in" is about as misleading (or helpful/relevant) as "North Korea / Iran waging proxy war against Ukraine" — Mar 31, 2024
? ? ?If you're point is Russia, being an empire, will seek dominate where it can (where it does being its "sphere of influence") its expand when it can: sure, obviously, but that's exactly my point that given Russia's propensity to expand — boethius
Well I've studied history in my own country and I think I know the history, so please say just to whom you refer this idea.Actual historians very much disagree with your view. — boethius
Stop right here.Had Ukraine accepted the peace deal on offer at the start of the war, — boethius
↪Tzeentch, what UA wanted was [really] a US plot [instead]? — Apr 1, 2024
? ? ?
So if Russia you accept that Russia has this propensity to expand, how then view NATO enlargement is this US plot against Russia. More of a ploy of the neighboring countries to get under NATO security umbrella before they have a conflict with Russia. — ssu
Well I've studied history in my own country and I think I know the history, so please say just to whom you refer this idea. — ssu
Finland illustrates flexibility born from necessity (factor #10). In response to Soviet fears and sensitivities, Finland did things unthinkable in any other democracy: it put on trial and imprisoned its own war time leaders according to a retroactive law; its parliament adopted an emergency decree to postpone a scheduled presidential election; a leading candidate was induced to withdraw his candidacy; and its press self censored statements likely to offend the Soviet Union. Other democracies would consider those actions disgraceful. In Finland those actions instead reflected flexibility: sacrificing sacred democratic principles to the extent required to retain political independence, the principle held most sacred. Quoting again from Zaloga's biography of Mannerheim, Finns excelled at negotiating "the least awful of several bad options". — Upheaval, Jared Diamond
Since the day he had assumed power, Finnish Foreign Minister Väinö Tanner had attempted to reopen talks with Moscow by every means he could think of. He had made personal appeals, he had sent secret emissaries to the Baltic states, he had tried to make contact through the offices of a number of sympathetic neutral nations. Moscow's only response had been a chilly silence. — Frozen Hell, William Trotter
Stop right here.
There was an attempt to make peace talks. I don't recall a written peace offer on the table from Putin. Perhaps unconditional surrender is for you a "peace offer".
Besides, this is irrelevant as Russia has formally annexed more territories (partly one that it doesn't even fully control) and hence this is quite meaningless.
I can also continue saying "If Putin had only had large exercises on the border and never attacked Ukraine!". Yeah, but that didn't happen, he did invade. — ssu
Thus in 1944 as in 1941, Finnish resistance achieved the realistic goal expressed by my Finnish friend: not of defeating the Soviet Union, but of making further Soviet victories prohibitively costly, slow and painful. As a result, Finland became the sole continental European country fighting in World War Two to avoid enemy occupation. — Upheaval, Jared Diamond
There's a lot to be critical about of US actions, but when it comes to Europe, here fortunately the US hasn't made it's biggest blunders. On the contrary, I would say.Now I get it, you view US empire as good and Russian empire as bad. Therefore, the US is justified in moving its military hardware and system closer to Russia. My view is more complicated than this dichotomy. — boethius
Some developments so far: — Mar 8, 2024
The election was recognized as free and fair.(4) — 2019 Ukrainian presidential election (Wikipedia)
When freedom and sovereignty themselves are perceived as threats then we get results like what we're seeing (word, infra, civil, grab). Too bad for Ukraine, eh? — Mar 11, 2024
Wait, you still claim having the scoop on the Nord Stream thing? — jorndoe
You departed therefrom again once having mentioned the Vietnamese — a comment I took to mean that what UA wanted was real enough, as opposed to a US plot (I suppose we might have enquired into both possibilities, but no matter).
So, implications of what they wanted, what to do with that (by the Kremlin)? — jorndoe
On the Nord Stream thing, Sy + Rose = your (sole) source...? — jorndoe
It's not settled. — jorndoe
at any rate, this is just speculation.
↪Tzeentch
, so, back to the inquiry, what the heck was the Kremlin to do with that, with what UA wanted? — jorndoe
cherry-picked — jorndoe
So obviously the Kremlin believed it was their business, and whether you agree with that or not, if you do not take warnings like these seriously, — Tzeentch
Again with your piece of pro-Russian propaganda? — neomac
So obviously the Kremlin believed it was their business, and whether you agree with that or not, if you do not take warnings like these seriously, you're a fool, or you're the United States preparing to sacrifice a pawn. — Tzeentch
Ukraine couldn't join NATO because Russia had ENOUGH Western/NATO complacent parties and issues (corruption, border issues, far-right movements) to prevent that from happening. So much so that Ukraine didn't join NATO since the collapse of Soviet Union until now.
Besides the reasons to keep NATO alive and NATO military capacity were declining.
And Ukraine was neutral until Russia annexed Crimea (https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrality/26758725.html) as much as Finland did, pushed by Russian aggression of Ukraine. — neomac
The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do. For instance, you can accept that your father was a pirate and a good man or you can't. But pirate is in your blood, boy, so you'll have to square with that some day. And me, for example, I can let you drown, but I can't bring this ship into Tortuga all by me onesies, savvy? So, can you sail under the command of a pirate, or can you not? — Captain Jack Sparrow
Putin will be forced to use tactic nuclear bombs, now. European populists and men-of-honor save Europe with your indisputable all-knowing wisdom! — neomac
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