The question you should ask: Will Bibi be OK with a hundred thousand or more Israelis having fled their homes in the North and now having live somewhere else?The issue then is, can the Israeli economy, and the Israeli's themselves (the citizens) be able to sustain an in-depth fight with Hezbollah? — Manuel
(Times of Israel, 22nd Oct 2023) Some 200,000 Israelis have been internally displaced in the ongoing Israel-Hamas following the terror group’s October 7 massacre in southern Israel, and amid escalating skirmishes on the Lebanon border in the north with terror group Hezbollah and allied Palestinian factions, according to Israeli authorities.
About half of the 200,000 were instructed to evacuate from 105 communities near the Gaza and Lebanon borders in the south and north, while half left areas close to the front of their own volition, a spokesperson for the Prime Minister’s Office said Sunday.
The Defense Ministry, through its National Emergency Management Authority (NEMA), said it was giving services to about 120,000 displaced Israelis ordered to evacuate from 25 communities up to four kilometers from the Gaza Strip, and from another 28 communities up to two kilometers from the Lebanon border, according to a Defense Ministry announcement.
- You think those Israelis living close to Lebanon are happy to just come home and wait for the tens of thousands of Hezbollah rockets to be fired at them at some time? — ssu
- Second of all, when Israel is already in a war. Why not try to kill two flies at the same time? You are already running around with the flyswatter and not minding your peaceful doings, so why not? — ssu
Are they in a worse condition? I don't think Bibi thinks at all like that.But they couldn't "swat the fly" in 2006, when they only focused on Lebanon. How could they do so now, when they are in a worse condition, militarily speaking? — Manuel
Isreal and Bibi react. Then think about tomorrow. 'The distant future' is not on their minds.I don't see how they can beat Hezbollah, if they can't beat Hamas. And then what? A defeat against Hamas and Hezbollah? — Manuel
Isreal and Bibi react. Then think about tomorrow. 'The distant future' is not on their minds.
And note, IDF cannot surely beat the movement called Hamas, but present military units of Hamas the can take out or degrade to a point that they can say to the Israeli public that Hamas isn't a threat. And that's it. That's the objective. Same is for Hezbollah they have a huge stockpile of rockets, so the issue is to destroy the existing capability. Those physical rockets and present leadership and present fighters. And with the October 7th attack having a similar effect of the 9/11 attacks, this logic can easily prevail. Why not? It's an opportunity. — ssu
Hence for Israel to deal with Hezbollah now is an opportunity. It's not when things are calm. — ssu
Naturally "Genocide Joe" is against this. Yet it will be harder and harder for the US to keep this stance when it's already fighting it's war against Hezbollah in Iraq! — ssu
Yes, there surely are those who are tired about Netanyahu and question how October 7th was possible. Yet the response isn't so much criticized by Israeli politicians. Just look at for example interviews of former prime minister Ehud Olmert. He's really not a Bibi fan in any way, but the response to destroy Hamas is quite there. It's as if on 9/11 we would have had a democratic administration of Al Gore: it would have gone also to Afghanistan. Not perhaps later to Iraq, but it would have gone there. To handle 9/11 like a police matter was simply out of the question. And so it is for Israel: it's at war. The real question is if another administration would want to enlarge the conflict as Bibi evidently does.For the time being. There are elements with the government that are tired of Bibi, but sadly, many of the alternatives to him are even worse, which is hard to comprehend. — Manuel
It risks escalating into an even bigger war this time, I don't believe that, once this is over, whenever it is, Israel will ever be the same again, nor will Gaza. I see the logic you are presenting, similar to what many in the government are presenting, but it has its drawbacks too, most notably civilian losses for Israel. — Manuel
I agree. Basically if Netanyahu overplays his hands, the end result may be a peace deal. But that would mean that the Israel lobby in the US loses it's position on the US. That is a big if.Well, a lot can happen, but my feeling is, even if they go to war with Hezbollah, which they may very well do, Israel is no longer guaranteed long stretches of peace, that is, they won't be able to avoid significant large wars, if they do not give up some land. So this is a band-aid for a missing arm, only more troubles for everybody. — Manuel
if taking a critical look at the middle east, it is both necessary and wise to look at it "large-scale." — tim wood
And note, IDF cannot surely beat the movement called Hamas, but present military units of Hamas the can take out or degrade to a point that they can say to the Israeli public that Hamas isn't a threat. And that's it. That's the objective. Same is for Hezbollah they have a huge stockpile of rockets, so the issue is to destroy the existing capability. — ssu
Isreal and Bibi react. Then think about tomorrow. 'The distant future' is not on their minds. — ssu
Can we please steer away with a very wide birth from the "psyche" of a group of people? Smells too close to racism to me. Cultural and material conditions have caused both sides to have a majority of people that can drink the other sides blood. That is a consequence of a decades long (rather one sided) conflict but little to do with "psyche". After WWII my grandfather-in-law hated Germans for the rest of his life - that was only 5 years of conflict. — Benkei
Another point I thought of regarding anti-semitism: Could you think of another country whose hostage posters would be torn down if its citizens were kidnapped by another group? I struggle to think of one. Israel is regarded as the nexus of worldly evil for so much of the world, especially on college campuses and among the youth. It's disturbing.
Moreover, why are so many of the pro-Palestinian protests violent and destructive while in the pro-Israel ones I've never heard of any vandalism and everyone's sitting around singing "HaTikvah." The difference in "culture" between the two groups is stunning. The Palestinian crowd disturbs cancer wards with their bullhorns. It's self-righteous psychopathy. Extremely dangerous.
↪neomac
Many Westerners still refuse to see the threat their governments pose to others and as such create the very conditions for those others to become a threat in turn. — Benkei
Also nice how you reduce everything anti-zionists in this thread have said about the crimes from Israel as comparing them to Nazis. — Benkei
As to your whole spiel about human rights, war crimes etc. not being considerations; they obviously are as all appeals by like-minded individuals, especially former colonies that better understand the oppression of the Palestinians, to higher norms are couched in international law norms, which have been recognised by Western and non-Western countries alike. — Benkei
Because what is offered to the Palestinians by the current Israeli government is to move away, to Sinai or Jordan, or somewhere else. That's basically it. Or be second-class citizens with different laws applied that Israelis. The majority of Israelis don't want a Palestine state and also don't want the Palestinians in their state. And this administration of Bibi is determined to do something about this.What if I were to say, "the US and Britain surely cannot beat the movement called Nazism, but only their present military units"... I suppose I would be technically right also but not making much of a point. Nazis do still exist. — BitconnectCarlos
Hopefully? Of course it will. The infants of today will be all military age in 20 years. Then at least the next serious mowing of the grass.Hopefully Israel won't need to "mow the grass" in another decade or two if real, systemic changes can be made and if the Rafah campaign is successful. — BitconnectCarlos
Or I get it: The Palestinians simply have stop being a death cult and stop attacking peaceful Israelis. And perhaps just move somewhere else and "get on with it!". I mean it's just a place where you live. One place is as good as another. For nobody the place they live is a "Holy Land", right??? :grin: — ssu
Well that’s not my case. Indeed, what you are saying is very much related to the point I made on several occasions in the thread about the Ukrainian crisis: if states/governments are security driven and anticipate threats (because if the threat is imminent, it may be too late to respond to it effectively), then any DEFENSIVE move can be perceived as OFFENSIVE by a competitor states/governments (see Putin’s complaining about NATO expansion and invasion of Ukraine to prevent that, triggered Finland and Sweden to candidate for NATO membership, so NATO expanded). Notice that, by this logic, even Nazis and Christians could see Jews as a threat for what Jews did and had done. BTW this is true also for PROPAGANDA spin by ordinary people like you: any propaganda by political activists can threaten and trigger a counter-propaganda. — neomac
And ultimately pick a side as consistently as possible with such understanding, if one wants to be rationality motivated.
Besides I also do not underestimate the possibility that not all human problems can be solved through diplomatic means or for the benefits of all involved parties. — neomac
Sorry, but I'm an old reserve officer... so I would fight and die for my country if needed. I cannot know what I would be as a Palestinian, but likely I wouldn't be fleeing my country. That's the best option we Finns know when faced by an overwhelming enemy which we cannot militarily destroy is to defend yourself and hope it's too costly to continue the war and you get a peace deal where you remain independent. Being a refugee and you know how much respect refugees get in this world. Fuck that!Let's say Netanyahu is a psychopath and can/wants to murder ALL Palestinians in Gaza for fun, would you ssu still want to remain in Gaza and risk the life of your entire family to be massacred for Netanyahu's fun or would you try to flee to more hospitable lands of the holy All-Peace&Love Pan-Arabic Pan-Islamic Pan-Brotherhood Islamic Arab Ummah AS FAST AS POSSIBLE (like Jews massively fled to the US when persecuted by the Nazis)? — neomac
Sorry, but I'm an old reserve officer... so I would fight and die for my country if needed. I cannot know what I would be as a Palestinian, but likely I wouldn't be fleeing my country. That's the best option we Finns know when faced by an overwhelming enemy which we cannot militarily destroy is to defend yourself and hope it's too costly to continue the war and you get a peace deal where you remain independent. Being a refugee and you know how much respect refugees get in this world. Fuck that!
My grandparents were in WW2 and they didn't send their children, my parents, away to Sweden. In fact, those children that were sent to Sweden had far more traumatic experience as the country wasn't occupied by the Russians. I wouldn't have respected them if they would have sent their children away. Children adapt to things and are happy with their parents, even it's just their mother there. — ssu
Special pleading.
A low level of anti-semitism is endemic in Western countries. It’s a hang over from the last few hundred years of persecution and prejudice against them.
If it weren’t there and Isreal were conducting the same actions against the Palestinians there would still be the same level of outrage across the globe. Outrage at a so called civilised country, a Western country confining a population and then starving them to death and bombing indiscriminately. — Punshhh
I don't want to start about Ukraine in this thread but expansion of NATO has deteriorated relations with Russia several times and therefore deteriorated our safety in Europe. It has always been a bad idea for Europe and has more to do with the geopolitical ambitions of the USA and Europe's dependence on its protection. We (the EU) need our own defensive alliance and leave the US and create a fourth power.
More generally, I don't see how anyone can call an expansion of any military alliance as defensive. Expansion is by definition offensive. It is the "trust our blue eyes" we're really a defensive organisation that everyone in the West sincerely believes because it's our guys claiming it - until it isn't. With its expansion into space, expansion into other countries and actions like Libya we already know where this is going to ensure NATO remains relevant. What will worry any country not in the alliance is the capabilities of such an alliance. So it's not so much propaganda on the side of Russia but more realising how our own propaganda works and ignoring it. — Benkei
I don't pick a side the way you do as the only rational position in my view is one that is morally consistent. Picking sides never gets you that. — Benkei
They obviously are AS other considerations. What I’m questioning and solicit people in this thread to give a more serious thought about is whether the considerations you seem to cherish so much (as many privileged white Westerners) are the main driving motivations of main involved parties’s decision makers with their supporters like Netanyahu with its Israeli supporters, Hamas with its Palestinian supporters
I think it is representative. It is a simple question about geography, something we cannot do anything about. The question of defense is in politics easy here. No difference between the left and the right wing parties. If we had an over 1000-km eastern border with Canada, I wouldn't ever gone to the military: it's not something for me whose has so low physical fitness. Or so I thought, I never imagined to be an officer. Likely we wouldn't have conscription.All right, I can respect that. And, for my education, how representative do you think your views are among Finns today? — neomac
Section 127 -National defence obligation
Every Finnish citizen is obligated to participate or assist in national defence, as provided by an Act.
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