...if you consider the brain as a physically complex system, with "consciousness" as a (weak) emergent phenomenon, then there is nothing to worry about. — Ypan1944

b) the supervenience of sentience and reason is so strong that minor changes in brain tissue can radically alter practice of sentience and reason. — ucarr

Conversely, the brain is also damage tolerant and in some cases is able to rewire itself to compensate for damage. So perhaps there is both supervenience and some form of strong emergence? — Pantagruel

In my opinion, this addition by Bedau is superfluous: you do can actually describe the properties of an emergent phenomenon with "normal" physics, where its substructure is usually irrelevant, so a form of "coarse graining" will happen (f.i. with Bohr's atomic model the substructure of the atomic nucleus is irrelevant, only the electric charge of the nucleus plays a role; and you need a new theory (namely quantum mechanics) to describe that phenomenon) — Ypan1944

Supervenience is therefore completely different from "downward causation". — Ypan1944

I don't agree with you. The features of an atom are totally dependent on the electron configuration of the atom, which you can describe with quantummechanics (harmonic oscillator etc.). The internal structure of the nucleus is irrelevant. You only need to know the electric charge of the nucleus. — Ypan1944

Also in chemical reactions, only the electron configuration of the participating atoms or molecules is important. — Ypan1944

To argue that our consciousness is highly emergent you must show that the features of our consciousness are supervenient over the underlying complex structure of neurons. — Ypan1944

For reactions between atoms or molecules, only the "outside" of an atom (i.e. the outermost electrons of the atom) plays a role. — Ypan1944

Deuterium oxide, also known as “heavy water” or “deuterium water”, is the compound of oxygen and the heavy isotope of hydrogen, namely deuterium. It is called heavy water because its density is greater than H₂O and its chemical formula is D₂O. Deuterium contains a neutron and proton in its nucleus, which makes it twice as heavy as protium (hydrogen), which contains only one proton. Deuterium oxide is colorless and odorless liquid in normal temperature and pressure. Compared to ordinary water, its chemical characteristic is relatively inactive with specific gravity of 1.10775 (25 ℃), melting/freezing point of 3.82 ℃, and boiling point of 101.42 ℃. The hydrogen bond strength and degree of association between heavy water molecules are both stronger than that of ordinary water molecules...

Nuclear reactions have nothing to do with the features of an atom or molecule. For reactions between atoms or molecules, only the "outside" of an atom (i.e. the outermost electrons of the atom) plays a role. The emergent feature of an atom or molecule depends only on its outermost electron configuration. — Ypan1944

Of course: nuclear reactions have emergent aspects by themselves, but you should distinguish these from emergent chemical features.
You can of course lump everything together and say that the universe, with everything in it, is emergent as a whole. But that means that the various properties of the universe are obscured. — Ypan1944

Supervenience is indicative of a dependence of a higher order entity on its constituent components. Strong emergence, on the other hand, is defined precisely in terms of non-reducibility (the whole is more than the sum of its parts). So, for example, if a man was able to build a neural computer, and transfer his consciousness to that computer, his consciousness would definitively be strongly emergent and not supervenient. This would also be an example of downward causation. — Pantagruel

Yes, you are right, but the chemical features of "heavy water" are exactly the same as "normal" water. The features you mentioned are just physical, not chemical. These physical aspects are not emergent (they are the direct result of the fact that it is a heavier atomic nucleus). The chemical features are indeed emergent, depending on the specific electron configuration. — Ypan1944

No the chemical properties are not exactly the same. For example, the pH of heavy water is 7.44 instead of 7.0. — wonderer1

But I don't bother about more refinement of definitions about physics versus chemistry — Ypan1944

To argue that our consciousness is highly emergent you must show that the features of our consciousness are supervenient over the underlying complex structure of neurons. This would mean that any damage to the brain has consequences for consciousness. — Ypan1944

Do you accept selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors -- SSRIs -- an established medication treatment for major depressive disorder -- as an example of the deep interweave of mind and brain via supervenience? SSRIs can greatly relieve long-term depression, a state of consciousness embedded in the empirical experience of some individuals. They achieve their effect by increasing the volume of serotonin, a neurotransmitter that carries signals between neurons. — ucarr

To argue that our consciousness is highly emergent you must show that the features of our consciousness are supervenient over the underlying complex structure of neurons. This would mean that any damage to the brain has consequences for consciousness. I didn't think this is the case. But I admit that the distinction between weak and strong emergence is not a strong one. — Ypan1944

Do you accept selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors -- SSRIs -- an established medication treatment for major depressive disorder -- as an example of the deep interweave of mind and brain via supervenience? SSRIs can greatly relieve long-term depression, a state of consciousness embedded in the empirical experience of some individuals. They achieve their effect by increasing the volume of serotonin, a neurotransmitter that carries signals between neurons. — ucarr

In my opinion this is certainly a case of supervenience. But supervenience can both exist in weak and strong emergency. — Ypan1944

You emphasize the strong versus weak emergence distinction, saying there's little difference, thus implying strong emergence is only slightly stronger than weak emergence.

Since supervenience -- whether strong or weak -- evidences emergence of mind, you presumably accept it as fact. Is your goal in this conversation denial of strong emergency? — ucarr

With strong emergence, the components lose their independence and a new ontological entity with new properties emerges. — Ypan1944

To some, Strong Emergence seems to imply a violation of Determinism, and Downward Causation implies a violation of physical Cause & Effect. Is this seemingly "magical" appearance of novelty the crux of your OP? — Gnomon

In his seminal work, Incomplete Nature, Terrence Deacon addresses both of those controversial topics. Yet, the Information Philosopher goes into even more detail, and both use the language of Information Theory to explain how the "magic" works. Are you familiar with these authors? :smile: — Gnomon

Therefore I like also to call artifacts emergent (even strong emergent): they need an inventor or artist to construct them, and they are in essence unpredictable. — Ypan1944