sure but the overwhelming failure of Chinese Medicine to effect medical benefit in general says to me it might have some accidental application - but it’s premise is spiritual - that Qi and imbalances in it are the source of physical ills.

No, I don’t suggest that, but I am more than happy to suggest that a spiritual system around 5000 years old with no significant update is probably bunk.

Chiropractic was literally instantiated by a liar, DD Palmer. The placebo effect is strong - as is people lying about receiving benefits from treatments they would be embarrassed to admit were useless.

Fwiw my brother is chiropractor and admits readily that there’s close to zero medical benefit beyond general pressure release of joint clicking (ie bursting synovial bubbles)

. Yet people swear by it. — Outlander

People also swear by blessing a cup of dogs blood in the shadow of a virgin or whatver.

I hope you’re being ironic lol

People also swear by blessing a cup of dogs blood in the shadow of a virgin or whatver. — AmadeusD

I can't say I've met one. Are you sure these people are not made of straw?

Did Westerners experience a similar history?
-> Technology introduces inequality to society (Iron, Colony, Industrial Revolution)
-> Moral system collapse (War Time)
-> Extreme legal systems that end war but cause severe destruction (Communist Party, Cultural Revolution)
-> Attempts to use legal means to maintain order (UN, Universal Declaration of Human Rights)
-> But still faces challenges? — YiRu Li

I am most interested in comparisons of this sort between our cultures. New technology is always going to be disruptive, and early adopters will tend to be winners and late adopters losers economically.

I don't have a formula for moral collapse; but the West is currently suffering it. Certainly the disruption of new technology is a part of it, as stability of peoples lives is lost, but there is much deeper stuff there as well.

I think part of the cause in the West currently is the result of an ongoing conflict between science and religion whereby the success of science in material knowledge has been so overwhelming that social, political, and moral considerations, and especially any spiritual or religious concerns have been dismissed as fantasy, and nonsense. The roots are in the enlightenment, but the modern attitude is well exemplified by this insightful book about how to exploit the information age and the collapse of democracy that is predicted to happen therefrom:— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sovereign_Individual
This is not a reading recommendation from me, except as one might seek to understand the thinking of one's enemy or any antisocial person.

From the loss of any foundation for a moral consensus comes the need for law, and rules and authority and punishment, which you have from Lao Tsu of course.

When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.
When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.
When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,
He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order.
Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion. — Tao Te Ching 38.

Now something less clear, but close to this can be found in Christianity, but these things are not amenable to measurement, experiment, or demonstration, by science, and therefore they are ignored and dismissed by many in this culture. An attitude which is illustrated by the some of the responses you are getting to your comments on Chinese Traditional medicine. To the modern Western mind, tradition is the enemy to be overcome by modernity.

What about chiropractic? People say that's "not a real science/medicine". Yet people swear by it. — Outlander

There is the placebo effect, which science does recognize.

I think chiropractic helps people by rubbing their backs and making it hurt less, but the "science" of it in that it somehow actually changes the skeletal structures or that it corrects malalignments, that's all horseshit and should be discarded.

I'm not willing to just say all medical treatment is the same and that we should allow all forms to be considered for fear we'll offend or be hypocritical. It's prefectly ok to say accupuncture is nonsense if it fails to show it works based upon scientific testing. And it is nonsense as a treatment for illness. It doesn't work. If it's some sort of pseudo-religious or sacred cultural practice, I have no objection to it, and I'll step back in reverence when its practioners use it, but I'm not going to suggest whatever illness suffered from has been addressed when it's used.

I think part of the cause in the West currently is the result of an ongoing conflict between science and religion whereby the success of science in material knowledge has been so overwhelming that social, political, and moral considerations, and especially any spiritual or religious concerns have been dismissed as fantasy, and nonsense. — unenlightened

I do agree that there is a spiritual crisis in our material society, so much so that most don't even know that their depressed state is caused by a lack of spirituality because they never were aware that even existed to be missing. The worst way to fix that is to proselytize, so they must left to be to find their way, which I actually think they will. Where I disagree with you though fairly profoundly is that I have no fear that religion will be over-run and that secular society will snuff it out. I don't believe that because I absolutely am as devout a theist as there might be, which means it's an impossibility that wrongness prevails. And I keep this vague enough because I know you have no desire to hear the tenants of my faith, but I just point out the that crisis you feel is from a lack of your own faith. I'm sure though that you find my optimism absurd, but your response is exactly as it ought to be, as is everything.

I think chiropractic helps people by rubbing their backs and making it hurt less, but the "science" of it in that it somehow actually changes the skeletal structures or that it corrects malalignments, that's all horseshit and should be discarded. — Hanover

While I can't say I'm familiar with any scientific research or lack thereof involving chiropractic, and generally rank your general knowledge as on par if not better, the idea, as I was sold by my former chiropractor, that over time adjustments, well, adjust, seems to be plausible.

Men grow old and often develop Dowager's Hump, or old man's hunch, after a time in life. Just as teeth can be straightened or made crooked, certainly can other bones such as the spine or neck? I had a bit of a near-hunch and was prescribed (or rather sold) a product known as a Denneroll, basically a solid pillow you place at the base of your neck for 20 minutes a day that prevents/treats/corrects what I described. I have to say I basically saw it work. Now if this is mere postural exercise, similar to laying flat on the floor and not related to chiropractic in the least, well, that's another matter. The average person will find the two related if not identical.

It's prefectly ok to say accupuncture is nonsense if it fails to show it works based upon scientific testing. And it is nonsense as a treatment for illness. It doesn't work. — Hanover

Again while I'd trust your general knowledge of most subjects over my own, the logic and claims are far from unsound. When your body is cut or pricked, it responds and releases chemicals. To quote John Hopkin's Medicine:

"Acupuncture points are believed to stimulate the central nervous system. This, in turn, releases chemicals into the muscles, spinal cord, and brain. These biochemical changes may stimulate the body's natural healing abilities and promote physical and emotional well-being."

Sure, it's not a game of Operation where you touch one spot and all of a sudden your lifelong migraines instantly vanish all the time, every time. Simply the idea, it doesn't hurt and for some people, claims to help or otherwise provide some tangible, medical benefit.

Those are just my thoughts on your comment, thoughts which are held by many, mind you.

While I can't say I'm familiar with any scientific research or lack thereof involving chiropractic, and generally rank your general knowledge as on par if not better, the idea, as I was sold by my former chiropractor, that over time adjustments, well, adjust, seems to be plausible. — Outlander

The history of chiropractic dates back to a man named Palmer who opined that all illness (as in all, from back pain, to sinus infections, to liver disease and so on) was caused by the inability of the life force to find its way down the spinal column due to an improperly aligned spine. He charted out what body parts were affected by misalignments at each level, so perhaps misalignment of the lower lumbar spine might cause you abdominal pain wheras the mid spine might cause you heart disease. The solution was to align your spine, which meant popping your back and supposedly bringing it into alignment, where you could then be cured of your illness.

Over time, most (but not all) chiropractors abandoned to the idea that their adjustment cured various problems with the organs, but they limited their practice to curing spinal pain, although many still claim that periodic adjustments are necessary for maintaining one's general health. Of course, these "adjustments" don't actually change the alignment of the spine, which is easy enough to observe on radiological studies, which is a good thing, because it you were able to manipulate someone's spine so easily, they'd be paralyzed.

The best you can say they do is treat muscular pain and their efforts are glorified massages. Some chiropractors have stopped cracking backs as they're known to do because that poses some liability risks in the event they hurt the patient. That has caused most to turn to a small spring device that they pop lightly on the patients spine and they claim that aligns the spine. Those devices are particularly stupid, but it is part of the practice. In fact, more than 50% of chiropractors now use that method.

https://www.advancedchiropracticgroup.com/services---techniques/activator-technique/activator-technique-faqs-.html#:~:text=The%20Activator%20Technique%20of%20chiropractic,chiropractors%20use%20the%20Activator%20Method.

To quote John Hopkin's Medicine:

"Acupuncture points are believed to stimulate the central nervous system. This, in turn, releases chemicals into the muscles, spinal cord, and brain. These biochemical changes may stimulate the body's natural healing abilities and promote physical and emotional well-being." — Outlander

That statement does not indicate that accupuncture works. It recites what the belief is, but makes no reference to any study.

The New England Journal of Medicine reports the results of a double-blind study on the efficacy of accupuncture for osteoarthritic pain, finding

"Forty patients, randomly assigned to an experimental and a control group, participated in a double-blind study to assess the effectiveness of acupuncture in reducing chronic pain associated with osteoarthritis. The experimental group received treatment at standard acupuncture points, and the control group at placebo points. Analysis before and after treatment showed a significant (P < 0.05) improvement in tenderness and subjective report of pain in both groups as evaluated by two independent observers and in activity by one observer. Comparison of responses to treatment between the two groups showed no significant( > 0.05) difference.

Thus, both experimental and control groups showed a reduction in pain after the treatments. These results may reflect the natural course of illness, and various attitudinal and social factors. (N Engl J Med 293:375–378, 1975)" https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM197508212930803

You can do a full review of the literature, but you'll find no supporting evidence for accupuncture for the relief of pain. If you did, then your neighborhood family doctor would be performing it, or at least they should be. If it worked and they didn't do it, then it would build an argument that medical practices are just social voodoos dependent upon cultural norms and not actually empirically based.

The reason this matters is because healthcare is a mulit-billion dollar industry and all sorts of people want to get their hands on some of this money. That has resulted in the "alternative healthcare" industry to emerge where they build upon a narrative that there are all sorts of simple solutions to problems and they flood the market with non-scientific testimonials to support their claims. This is not to say that true medical providers don't cheat, rob, and steal, but they at least have a valid methodology that works if they choose to use it. Alternative medicine does not have a valid methodology, and for that, it's not a valid enterprise.

I would need to see studies on this subject before committing to a view. — Tom Storm

I disagree — AmadeusD

Why don't you agree? I believe it's a translation issue. After hearing your perspective on the definition of 'Medical Practice,' I think a more accurate translation would be 'Chinese medical philosophy' or 'Chinese healthy lifestyle.'

Western medicine emphasizes that healthy food, exercise, and emotional well-being are key to our health. Chinese medical philosophy supports this idea, placing a stronger emphasis on pinpointing the key factors contributing to illnesses. While general attention to food, exercise, and emotional control is beneficial, it may not address specific organs or illnesses.
- Healthy food -> herbs.
- Exercise -> Qigong and Acupuncture.
- Emotion -> the philosophy of equality.

'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' specifically teaches these everyday life practices in relation to our health, following the 20-80 principle.

Western medical practice theory contradicts Chinese medical philosophy, as the latter does not advocate for unnecessary and excessive control. There is a fundamental disagreement with side effects and intensive control of small areas. Chinese medical philosophy views spirit, mind, and body as interconnected, treating them as a holistic entity.

A Chinese doctor is seen as a teacher, guiding individuals towards changes in spirit, mind, and body. In contrast, Western doctors primarily focus on treatment without insisting on lifestyle changes. When consulting a Chinese doctor, people expect guidance and transformations in spirit, mind, and body. Therefore, Chinese medical philosophy cannot be accurately translated as 'Medical Practice' in Western thinking. It entails different concepts and expectations.

'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine,' mentioned in our OP, is a prophetic book with a writing style similar to Laozi, Zhuangzi, and the Bible. Prophetical works require a master to teach the disciple for proper understanding.

I find it puzzling that when people hear about 'Medicine,' they automatically associate it with 'Western Science' and demand scientific proof. Why can't it be considered a 'Philosophy' classic book, similar to Plato's Dialogues, inspiring new modern thinking?

I've heard that a few hundred years ago, science was part of philosophy in Europe. Where is the Western medical philosophy book?

Maybe give it a try and see for yourself.
This Chinese doctor teaches how to protect our eyes using Chinese Medicine methods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCzMEAOYfPs

At the 12:18 mark of the video, he demonstrates 'Eye care 5 points reverse vision,' teaching how to self-massage the acupuncture points around our eyes.
Give it a try! It's free!

He has many videos covering various small and big illnesses, all with English subtitles."

Maybe give it a try and see for yourself. — YiRu Li

So instead of relying upon a double blind study with multiple participants, you want me to just give it a try and see if it's true or not?

Like I said, I have no objection to protecting your cultural rituals and holding them in proper regard (as I, no doubt, have my own), but I'm not going to pretend your medical claims are valid just to be accomodating.

Just sharing some healthy practices in the hope of benefiting others.
I don't aim to prove whether it's true or not;
Chinese medicine is simply an exercise, food, or emotion therapy for me.
Do we need scientific proof of our mother nature? :chin:

Just sharing some healthy practices in the hope of benefiting others.
I don't aim to prove whether it's true or not;
Chinese medicine is simply an exercise, food, or emotion therapy for me.
Do we need scientific proof of our mother nature?" — YiRu Li

The proper justification for a scientific claim is that the methodology used is consistent with the scientific method. I don't know how more clear to say that.

But, if you see Chinese medicine as a cultural or religious practice, like I said, I'll stand back and respect your prayer.

Part of my respect cannot be to suggest that your practices are scientifically valid or that they should be included in a typical doctor's visit, though.

Why don't you agree? I believe it's a translation issue. After hearing your perspective on the definition of 'Medical Practice, — YiRu Li

I have not defined medical practice.

The proper justification for a scientific claim is that the methodology used is consistent with the scientific method. I don't know how more clear to say that.

But, if you see Chinese medicine as a cultural or religious practice, like I said, I'll stand back and respect your prayer.

Part of my respect cannot be to suggest that your practices are scientifically valid or that they should be included in a typical doctor's visit, though. — Hanover

Exactly.

ongoing conflict between science and religion — unenlightened

if you see Chinese medicine as a cultural or religious practice, like I said, I'll stand back and respect your prayer. — Hanover

Exactly. — Tom Storm

Certainly! It is essential to conduct a background check on any unfamiliar culture.
Here are the background check materials I can provide.
Additionally, I believe this history is valuable when analyzing the power inequality between Religion and Science.
I am curious about how to understand 'Spirit' in a purely philosophical way?

1) **Sacrifice**
‘Heaven’ or 'Tao' is the Chinese name for God in the Bible. We find 'Tao' everywhere in all Chinese Classic books, encompassing all of nature and social science. We can examine all Chinese classics alongside the Bible to 1) Check if every word aligns with the Bible and 2) facilitate a better understanding of both.

Chinese civilization was initiated by the Bible's God from the 'Yellow Emperor' after the Tower of Babel. The Chinese emperor was the only one allowed to sacrifice to the Bible's God once a year on the Solstice day for 5,000 years. This ritual ceased when China became a democracy in 1911. The general public's worship was entirely prohibited for 5,000 years. Authentic Chinese civilization lacks a religious concept or word.

The 'Temple of Heaven' served as the sacrificial place from 1420. Before 1420, for about 4,500 years, the Emperor would find a natural mound each year to conduct the sacrifice, similar to Abraham's way of sacrificing outside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Heaven



2) **Church Missionary**
Catholic missionaries researched authentic Chinese civilization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figurism

Protestant missionaries researched iChing, LaoZi, and ZhuangZi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wilhelm_(sinologist)

[Matthew 10.1] Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them the authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

The Church of the East implemented the church in a master-disciple style by Jesus. I speculate that Jesus' medical knowledge was brought by the Church of the East to China. Many Church of the East missionaries were renowned doctors. In the last paragraph of the 'Xi'an Stele,' we see that 'healing' was the primary method for them to carry out mission work. 'The naked came and were clothed; the sick were attended to and restored; the dead were buried in repose.'
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Nestorian_Monument:_An_Ancient_Record_of_Christianity_in_China/Translation_of_the_Nestorian_Inscription

3) **Chinese Official Astronomy History of Jesus' Birth & Death**
The editor of 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' is the best astrologist at Jesus' birth time. He was very likely one of the wise men who visited baby Jesus.

*The official Chinese astronomy history of Jesus' birth:*
In February of the second year, the comet appeared for more than seventy days. It is said: "The comet is the reason why the comet removes the old and establishes the new. The morning glory is the starting point of the sun, moon, and five stars. It is the element of counting and the beginning of the three uprights. When the comet comes out, it is the sign of change. If it comes out for a long time, it is a big thing." In the sixth month of the year, Xia Heliang and others suggested that the name of the Yuan Dynasty should be changed and the engraving should be added. The imperial edict changed the second year of Jianping to the first year of Taichu Yuanjiang, and the title was Chen Sheng, Liu Taiping, Emperor, and the inscription was marked as one hundred and twenty. On Dingsi in the eighth month, Xi returned and eliminated him. He Liang and his party were all executed and exiled. Later, Wang Mang usurped the country.

*The official Chinese astronomy history of Jesus' death:*
In the fourth month of the summer, on the day Renwu, an imperial edict was issued, stating: "Due to errors in the yin and yang, there have been eclipses of the sun and moon. If the people have made mistakes, let them be attributed to me alone. A general amnesty is granted to all under heaven."

4) **Foreign Religions**
All religions in China are considered foreign religions.
Taoism and Buddhism were approved as legal in the 1st century.
The Church of the East, Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, and Islam were approved in the 7th century. Greek pagan is consistently illegal. However, during the 2nd - 6th century, foreigners killed 90% of the Chinese and occupied China. Greek pagan spread everywhere through foreigners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

The Chinese tried to remove the temples and statues for 1,000 years but still failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Buddhist_Persecutions_in_China

The Church of the East opened sects in Buddhism and Taoism.
It gained 100% market share and integrated all foreign religions, except Islam, in the 10th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land_Buddhism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanzhen_School

All foreign religions need to follow Chinese civilization's rule of no general public worship, and no one can make a living solely on religion. Even a Buddhist monk needs to find a job other than religion, such as farming.
The no general public worship rule is robust and makes all foreign religions feel like a philosophy class in the university until today.

5) **Jewish Dynasty**
At least 6 dynasties are highly related to Jews. Either Jews got hired as prime ministers or diplomats, or the Emperor himself is a Jew.

Authentic Chinese civilization lacks a religious concept or word. — YiRu Li

There is such a lot to understand here that is very unfamiliar to Westerners. But this one phrase stands out as explaining much about what you have been saying that others have not understood. In the West there is a conflict between science and religion because people have fought over which religion is true, and who is in charge of what a religion says. So one cannot, or people do not, take the best of what Buddha says, and what Jesus says, and what Mohammed says and what Lao Tsu says and and put it together with what physicists and astronomers say. No, one must be right, and all the others wrong and false and evil.

Which must make the West look rather foolish to you.

Chinese medical philosophy views spirit, mind, and body as interconnected, — YiRu Li

Which is exactly why it is not a medical practice. It's closer to a soft version of Shamanism. Which i have no issue with, but it should probably be delineated correctly, rather than pretend to medical effectiveness in teh same way as say cardiology does/can.

'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine,' mentioned in our OP, is a prophetic book with a writing style similar to Laozi, Zhuangzi, and the Bible. Prophetical works require a master to teach the disciple for proper understanding. — YiRu Li

This is, to my mind, an extreme red flag. Prophecy as a part of medicine is ... let's say not got a good history.

I find it puzzling that when people hear about 'Medicine,' they automatically associate it with 'Western Science' and demand scientific proof. Why can't it be considered a 'Philosophy' classic book, similar to Plato's Dialogues, inspiring new modern thinking? — YiRu Li

It can. But then it can't be considered a medical book. Medico-religious perhaps? In the same vein as Shamanism. No issues - But again, the pretense that you're in the same arena as Western medicine beggars belief to my mind.

Where is the Western medical philosophy book? — YiRu Li

Why do you want one?

Like I said, I have no objection to protecting your cultural rituals and holding them in proper regard (as I, no doubt, have my own), but I'm not going to pretend your medical claims are valid just to be accomodating. — Hanover

:ok:

FTR, I have consulted Chinese medical practioners a fair bit. I went through about eight years of being entirely ensconsed in a new-agey, "traditional" mindset that had my thinking pulse diagnosis was better than a thermometer. My experience confirms my conceptual understanding that it is a placebo-based psychological practice with some efficacy around stress and self-understanding but has next-to-no medical efficacy beyond what has been developed along side Western concepts (such as diet and exercise - minus the Qi concept. As metaphor, perhaps).

I have not defined medical practice — Tom Storm

I think the comment may have been aimed at me - but im unsure i did either lol.

Overall, the history is really interesting and as a 'practice' as it were, Chinese medicine is a cool practice and generally characterized by social cohesion of inter-personal understanding.

But this seems, as with most religions, to entirely fail if one is not an adherent. When something begins to fail in absence of a belief, I tend to get off the train.

[ It’s not hard to find enthusiasts for any kind of therapy or pseudo scientific practice, from crystal channeling to psychic healing.

My experience confirms my conceptual understanding that it is a placebo-based psychological practice with some efficacy around stress and self-understanding but has next-to-next medical efficacy beyond what has been developed along side Western concepts (such as diet and exercise - minus the Qi concept. As metaphor, perhaps). — AmadeusD

Nice. Did you mean ‘next to no’ ?

It’s not hard to find enthusiasts for any kind of therapy or pseudo scientific practice, from crystal channeling to psychic healing. — Tom Storm

100%. I used to be all in on 'telepathine' (its a can of worms) and various other really discreet modes of supernatural activity. I used to be 100% convinced you can think your way out of a broken arm. I took crystals seriously, at least as conduits, if not tools in themselves. Its attractive, and the less you're incline to seek 'the truth' the easier it is to seek 'the most fun' stuff and convince yourself otherwise.

Nice. Did you mean ‘next to no’ ? — Tom Storm

Yes, will go edit that LOL thanks

I hear you. I got lost amongst theosophists, New Age types, mystics, Gnostics, Buddhists and Hindus for much of the 1980's and early 1990's.

But this one phrase stands out as explaining much about what you have been saying that others have not understood. In the West there is a conflict between science and religion because people have fought over which religion is true, and who is in charge of what a religion says. So one cannot, or people do not, take the best of what Buddha says, and what Jesus says, and what Mohammed says and what Lao Tsu says and and put it together with what physicists and astronomers say. No, one must be right, and all the others wrong and false and evil.

Which must make the West look rather foolish to you. — unenlightened

Inequality is the root cause of dishonesty.
— YiRu Li
I disagree. "Dishonesty" is caused by intelligence; it is often an effective social, business or political tactic. — 180 Proof

I find it to be 'intelligent'! Adam and Eve ate the apple, marking The Beginning of Sin. Does intelligence cause inequality?

Authentic Chinese civilization is a reformation based on the West from 5,000 years ago. It cannot be understood in isolation. For example, I wasn't aware that Chinese worship was banned 5,000 years ago until I learned about Western worship.

I also feel that the solstice sacrifice ritual is a very powerful symbol. It unequivocally asserts that authentic Chinese civilization doesn't have a distinct religion. Every knee bows to it!

Or, as ChuangZi says, we need to empty ourselves first to deal with inequality.

I find it to be 'intelligent'! Adam and Eve ate the apple, marking The Beginning of Sin. Does intelligence cause inequality? — YiRu Li

It's an allegorical or fictional story about obeying god and the consequences of not doing so. Yahweh being a Mafiosa-style, don't-fuck-with me deity. This is a story that has nothing to offer me personally. Me being a crass, contemporary, secular humanist type who is comfortable living in the present era and holding Western worship to be pointless nonsense. :wink:

I find it to be 'intelligent'! Adam and Eve ate the apple, marking The Beginning of Sin. Does intelligence cause inequality?
— YiRu Li

It's an allegorical or fictional story about obeying god and the consequences of not doing so. — Tom Storm

Have you heard the one about Schrodinger's cat? Ridiculous! how anyone can be scientist after that is beyond me.

I would say it is not that intelligence causes inequality, because even in the Garden of Eden everything had to eat something, but inequality becomes an issue for intelligent beings.

There is some subtlety to the story: they eat of the tree of knowledge, and the first thing that happens is "they saw that they were naked, and were ashamed." They didn't need God to be pointing and laughing at their genitals. We know that animals can have memory and learn, and form complex social relations in hierarchies, and so on. And the story pinpoints a crucial difference that only happens in humans that scientists have still not quite seen the importance of, because they want to emphasise language and reason, which are in fact common to many species.

Part of learning is to replay events in the mind - of a hunt for example, and see where things went wrong and how to perform better. Now at a certain level of complexity of such mental re-enactments, one has to imagine, not only oneself and others acting out the scene, but also to imagine their thoughts and feelings and one's own thoughts and feelings. And in this way one starts to have an idea of how one appears to another. I see you looking at my sex, and I imagine what you are thinking. And that's when inequality starts to become an issue, and one that perhaps 'ought to be other than it is'. That is to say, humans uniquely model their own minds and the minds of others in their imagination, and it is this mindfulness of mindedness that takes us out of the natural world so that we live in our own imagination of the imagination of others, more fully than we do in the real world. And that is why our place in society, our status in the minds of others is the most important thing about us, and inequality is the most vital issue.

Have you heard the one about Schrodinger's cat? Ridiculous! how anyone can be scientist after that is beyond me. — unenlightened

Absolutely ridiculous! Science is clearly nonsense and more fool you for even suggesting it might be useful.

Just because we can't "see" something or correlate how and why something works doesn't automatically mean it doesn't. — Outlander

most don't even know that their depressed state is caused by a lack of spirituality because they never were aware that even existed to be missing. — Hanover

Yahweh being a Mafiosa-style... — Tom Storm

I would say it is not that intelligence causes inequality.....one has to imagine, not only oneself and others acting out the scene, but also to imagine their thoughts and feelings and one's own thoughts and feelings... — unenlightened

Or, can I draw the conclusion that the inequality issue stems from 'Body & Mind'?
We need to address it at the 'Spirit' level ?

Prophecy as a part of medicine is ... — AmadeusD

:up:
Good question!

I believe the medical philosophy book in the West is 'the Bible'.
'The Bible' is also studied alongside 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' from the 7th century until today.

This is because authentic Chinese civilization doesn't have a religious concept or word.
We use 'the Bible' and 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' in a purely tool book way.

Before I explain how to view them as tools, in a completely non-religious way, we need to understand how to think of 'Spirit' in a purely philosophical way.

The following is a summary from ZhuangZi to explain 'how to feel Spirit in us'. Please check if it makes sense. Afterward, I will explain how to use prophet books as 'Citation' or 'Search Engine' , to address inequality issues at the 'Spirit' level (e.g., Religion <-> Science inequality).

---------------------------------------------------------------
*In general, we often only notice the 'Body' and 'Mind'.

We need to lower the activity of the body and mind to feel the spirit. For example, lower desires from body and mind.

Carl Jung (psychiatrist): My patients are all physically and mentally healthy but not happy. If we want to be happy, we can't only depend on the body and mind. We need the spirit.


*How can we feel that we have Spirit? From two perspectives:

1) Inner Self

We might do everything to satisfy others' criteria, but we don't feel happy ourselves. How can we make ourselves feel content, too?

The body will die. The mind will lose function (e.g., Alzheimer's disease). What else can we have after the body or mind function dies? Body and mind are weak.


2) Self-transcendence

We feel others' pain. Cry for sad things in movies. But we're not suffering; why do we feel sad for others? Because our 'self' connects with others' 'self,' called 'the greater self'.

"If every time we do things for our 'self', we add decoration to our 'self', then add more distance from others. If we think for others, we will get rid of the decoration of our 'self."
For example, not being selfish, being nice to strangers -> Spirit.

Body, Mind -> Self
Spirit -> Self-transcendence

If we can lower each individual's 'Self' but have more 'Self-transcendence,' then this world will be more 'a community of shared future'.

-------------------------------------
* 'The Attitude to Hear' practice:

"You hear not with the ears but with the mind; not with the mind but with your soul."
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Chuang_Tz%C5%AD_(Giles)/Chapter_4 [43]

Stop hearing by ear -> Stop 'Body' activity
Stop hearing by mind -> Stop 'Mind' activity (Mind is used to understand things).
Only use 'Spirit/Breath' to hear.

Practice 'The attitude to Hear' in an inequality case in our daily life (e.g., God in a Mafiosa-style).
See what we'll experience when we stop understanding things by body and mind?

Sure, it's not a game of Operation where you touch one spot and all of a sudden your lifelong migraines instantly vanish all the time, every time. — Outlander

I have no fear that religion will be over-run and that secular society will snuff it out. — Hanover

Did you mean ‘next to no’ ? — Tom Storm

people do not, take the best of what Buddha says, and what Jesus says, and what Mohammed says and what Lao Tsu says and and put it together with what physicists and astronomers say. — unenlightened

Where is the Western medical philosophy book?
— YiRu Li

Why do you want one? — AmadeusD

One citation example for the prophet books.

**Case Study 1: Lady A's Glaucoma**

Lady A developed glaucoma between the ages of 15-18, unable to cope with the persistent financial conflicts between her parents and the pressure of academic studies. This stress contributed to high eye pressure. Despite multiple visits to Western medicine doctors before her glaucoma diagnosis, they couldn't offer advice to prevent its development. After confirming glaucoma, Western medicine's sole solution was using eye drops to alleviate eye pressure. However, these proved ineffective during periods of stress, poor diet, lack of exercise, and aging.

[Citation]*This citation can be from any prophet book, e.g., Buddha as the great physician.

-> 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine': "When the liver is harmonious, the eyes can distinguish the five colors."
-> Herbs for the liver are 'Chamomile' or 'Chrysanthemum'.
-> Mapping to the Bible 'Flowers of the Field'.
-> [Matthew 6:28] “And why do you worry about clothes? Look at the wildflowers in the field. See how they grow. They don’t work or make clothes for themselves." [James 1:10-11] "And the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits."
-> Rich <-> Poor Inequality

* Throughout Lady A's life, her pursuit of the best schools, profession, and company caused high eye pressure as she neglected her inner self.


**Case Study 2: Sir B's Gout**

Sir B developed gout at age 25 after a year of extreme stress and daily sugar consumption following his dismissal from his first job. The terrible situation lasted about a year until he felt intense pain in his feet one day, leading to a confirmed diagnosis of gout. Depression and anxiety from age 12, resulting from his parents' tumultuous relationship and years of bullying starting at age 6, left lasting mental scars. Gout thwarted his dream of becoming a drummer by triggering dystonia, making it challenging to control his feet while playing drums. Medications for gout were sometimes ineffective.
At age 28, Sir B started feeling stroke-like symptoms, though Western medicine doctors deemed him fine. Seeking relief, he turned to marijuana, now believing it's the only solution to his life's agony.

[Citation]
-> 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine': "If the pain comes fast and is strong, we can massage it; if the pain lasts long and is huge, we can release it."
-> Herbs for Gout are 'Job's tear' and 'Cypress seed'.
-> 'Job's tear' mapping to the Bible 'the book of Job'.
-> 'Good <-> Bad' Inequality
-> 'Cypress seed' mapping to the Bible [Isaiah 14:8] "You were an evil king, and now you are finished. Even the pine trees are happy. The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice. They say, 'The king chopped us down, but now the king has fallen, and he will never stand again.'"
-> 'Strong <-> Weak' , 'Domination' Inequality

* Everyday, Sir B feels everything is agony.

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In both Lady A and Sir B's cases, 'Mind' issues or a 'Poor Spirit' are the main triggers of their irreversible chronic diseases. Can we treat 'Mind' issues only at the 'Mind' level, e.g., addressing hate? Or do we need to treat it at the "Spirit' level, e.g., loving our enemies?

Though herbs may seem mild, learning healthy practices for Spirit, Mind, and Body from minor ailments is valuable. If a challenging event arises, maintaining a peaceful mind can prevent it from developing into a significant irreversible chronic disease.

[Extension: Spirit, Mind, Body as a Whole; Religion<-> Science Inequality]
Authentic Chinese civilization considers prophet books a comprehensive 'Citation', integral to history, other prophet books, and nature & social science. The Prophet books offer 'Keywords' for understanding ancient civilizations, making it easy to find similar teachings across cultures. In Taiwan and China's K12 schools, 50% of daily learning over 12 years is dedicated to understanding ancient prophet books.

In Taiwan and China, every doctor is trained in both Western and Chinese medicine. Numerous TV shows and YouTube videos daily educate on combining Western & Chinese medicine for various conditions, emphasizing the need for doctors to guide medical therapy use.

None of these are citations my friend. These are excerpts from spiritual texts.

Authentic Chinese civilization considers prophet books a comprehensive 'Citation', integral to history, other prophet books, and nature & social science. The Prophet books offer 'Keywords' for understanding ancient civilizations, making it easy to find similar teachings across cultures. In Taiwan and China's K12 schools, 50% of daily learning over 12 years is dedicated to understanding ancient prophet books. — YiRu Li

That may explain the lack of efficacy and acceptance. I have no issue with being a bit of a Western Chauvinist when it comes to medicine.

None of these are citations — AmadeusD

That may explain the lack of efficacy and acceptance. — AmadeusD

:up:

One citation way is like 'Lego'.
They grouped legos with similar functions in one prophet book.
But on each piece of Lego, it has a link point which can connect to other pieces of Lego in other books.
e.g. 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' only discusses the way to treat disease. But it doesn't have herb or spiritual teaching in detail. It just provides the 'keyword', so it can freely link to any local herb books and local prophet books.

It makes sense from a Computer science view. Maybe the Law field also has a similar concept?

An easier way: Listening to the doctor on YouTube how they explain the spirit and mind issue for each disease. e.g. anger, high blood pressure. Then link it to the prophet books or modern psychology therapy that you are familiar with.

Because Taiwanese people spent lots of time studying ancient prophet books when we were young, it's fun to find out the citation by ourselves. But for easy & correct application, the doctor will explain the Spirit, Mind, Body theory for you.

Using the human body's 'Self-Healing functions' is as easy as using a cell phone.
All the disease and corresponding acupuncture points are all taught in the YouTube videos.
We can self massage and try all the acupuncture points at home.
We can at least experience 1% effect by self massage, compared to doctor's acupuncture service.
If we are sick, we'll feel 'sore or hurt' at the acupuncture points.
Doctor + needle only makes the effect: 1) Stronger, 2) Last longer 3) more accurate points
Is it scientific proof enough if we try all our acupuncture points at home, following the doctor's instruction in the video?
e.g. My friend has a back pain issue. While he massages his acupuncture points, the back pain is immediately released. He feels very sore at the points.

People in Taiwan and China watch doctors on TV & YouTube to use Chinese medicine everyday at home, as a fun hobby with family and friends. e.g. Go to nature together to find herbs, practice massage and Qigong together, or encourage each other with spirit & healing.

as a fun hobby with family and friends — YiRu Li

This sounds right. And there's nothing wrong with this, and the heavy effect of Placebo on spirituality-derived healing.

An easier way: Listening to the doctor on YouTube how they explain the spirit and mind issue for each disease. e.g. anger, high blood pressure. Then link it to the prophet books or modern psychology therapy that you are familiar with. — YiRu Li

How would this be a good idea? Looking at unreliable spiritual chat on the Internet and linking it to unreliable historical, poetics masquerading as medicine seems a sure-fire way to preclude yourself from gaining any understanding of the issues you're facing.

It makes sense from a Computer science view. Maybe the Law field also has a similar concept? — YiRu Li

It doesn't make sense for either point of view imo. This is networking disparate, unreliable poetic passages with unreliable internet (Youtube, even!) 'medical' advice and pretending that the arbitrary connect-the-dots game is a legitimate practice of synthesizing medical information.

All the disease and corresponding acupuncture points are all taught in the YouTube videos. — YiRu Li

And not in any medical texts, or anything that can be taken particularly seriously.

How would this be a good idea? Looking at unreliable spiritual chat on the Internet and linking it to unreliable historical, poetics masquerading as medicine seems a sure-fire way to preclude yourself from gaining any understanding of the issues you're facing. — AmadeusD

And not in any medical texts, or anything that can be taken particularly seriously. — AmadeusD

:chin:

Let's assess the principles of Chinese medicine:

1. Equality Philosophy:
- Concept: Self-healing through thought.
- Basis: Inherent design of the human mind.

2. Qigong:
- Concept: Self-healing through exercises and breath.
- Basis: Inherent design of the human body.

3. Acupuncture:
- Concept: Self-healing through acupuncture points.
- Basis: Inherent design of the human body.

4. Herbs:
- Concept: Self-healing through nature.
- Basis: Inherent design of humans and nature.

The question arises: When did humans first acquire this knowledge of self-healing?
What are your thoughts on this matter?

What does this have to do with the previous conflict in our views?

Most of the listings you've put out are just tenets of TCM. They are not 'facts' to be discussed as such.

They also posit an intelligent designer, whcih I can't take seriously at this stage.

Most of the listings you've put out are just tenets of TCM. They are not 'facts' to be discussed as such. — AmadeusD

Acupuncture is effective because it naturally exists in everyone's body. Each person possesses acupuncture points that contribute to this inherent self-healing function. Doctor-administered needles are not the only option; individuals can also stimulate these points at home by pressing them with their fingers to enhance overall health.

For thousands of years, people in Korea, China, Japan, Vietnam, and Taiwan have been utilizing these acupuncture points to treat various ailments, and this practice continues to thrive today. The only way to refute its efficacy is to examine your body and confirm the absence of inherent acupuncture points.