So sure, I'm in favor of the Garden of Eden you envision. It's unfortunately a myth. — Hanover
It is a tragedy that the Arab world has failed to mesh with western values, for whatever reasons. I’m not blaming them, the blame stands more with the duelling between the US and the Soviets.
Even the rich Arab states, who were spared due to their oil, are living on borrowed time. — Punshhh
- Given these military actions have generally involved significantly looser rules of engagement than Israel (e.g., both Syria and Egypt have hosed down large crowds of protestors with belt fed heavy machine guns in the past decades), and significantly higher death tolls (e.g. the Siege of Mosul involved 40,000 civilian fatalities despite being in a significantly smaller city against a significantly smaller occupying force);
-Why is Israel such a lightening rod for criticism? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Syrian civil war
Total killed
503,064–613,407+[3][4]
Civilans killed
306,887+[5]
Displaced
6.7 million internally
6.6 million externally (refugees) (March 2021)[6] — Wikipedia
Again, don't forget the little guys, the regional players, and insist everything happens because of the US. — ssu
- Given these military actions have generally involved significantly looser rules of engagement than Israel (e.g., both Syria and Egypt have hosed down large crowds of protestors with belt fed heavy machine guns in the past decades), and significantly higher death tolls (e.g. the Siege of Mosul involved 40,000 civilian fatalities despite being in a significantly smaller city against a significantly smaller occupying force);
-Why is Israel such a lightening rod for criticism? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Syrian civil war
Total killed
503,064–613,407+[3][4]
Civilans killed
306,887+[5]
Displaced
6.7 million internally
6.6 million externally (refugees) (March 2021)[6] — Wikipedia
But if you really think that supporting the enemy of your enemy is allways 'makes sense', I have to disagree.
These myriad tricks usually blown in the face of these politicians who think that they can juggle with live grenades. — ssu
Yes don’t trust any party that isn’t western, liberal democratic, and who are not generally trying to get along peacefully. — schopenhauer1
Haha. :rofl: you really have no sense of history at all, do you? — Benkei
Peaceful coexistence is fine, there is no need to go the whole hog and 'mesh with western values' not sure what they are. After all, the Abraham accords were all about peace.
Short & sweet from a Rabbi to a fool: — Nicholas
I agree. And the rich Gulf states with their tiny citizenry have their own milder version of Apartheid namely in the form of permanent migrant workers, whose legal rights can be dubious (at least by Western standards). At least usually the migrant workers can go home.It is a tragedy that the Arab world has failed to mesh with western values, for whatever reasons. I’m not blaming them, the blame stands more with the duelling between the US and the Soviets.
Even the rich Arab states, who were spared due to their oil, are living on borrowed time. — Punshhh
a larger persepective, this was the curse of decolonization: how could you even think of 'capitalism' that your colonizer had, as surely the part of being a colony wasn't so great? Socialism seemed a perfectly viable answer back then. How would Palestinians think about "American democracy" after having lived under occupation that the US supports? Hence the "back to original roots" -movement with islamism is now the 'viable' option. Unfortunately. — ssu
Another possibility is that bad people assumed power and imposed their will on what might otherwise have been a better society.
That comes to mind as the cause in China, N. Korea, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Stalin's Russia, maybe even Putin's as well.
And Hamas
Intentional, malicious leadership. — Hanover
Why is it you suppose that people cannot give them agency? — schopenhauer1
And what would be the reason for Israel to support a two state solution in the first place?And how can you expect the Israelis to support a two state solution given their experience with the Palestinians? — Hanover
Quite well: In the end in both countries, there was no support for the previous aggressive expansionism as the utter defeat was totally evident to everybody. How bad previous national socialism and Imperial militarism had been simply couldn't be denied. And then, both countries happily accepted the position they were given: being an ally of the US was quite different from being an "ally" of the Soviet Union.How can we explain the US alliance with Germany and Japan given their WW2 experience? — Hanover
Well, the US military still had Operational Plans for a war against Canada and the UK even after WW1 (Warplan Red), so it wasn't so easy I guess.How can we explain the US alliance with the UK given the history of colonization and indentured servitude. — Hanover
Well, if you don't understand that, wonder what gives. Yes, why do the Palestinians oppose Israel??? :roll:Why do Muslims live in the US peaceably, but not in their ancestral homelands? — Hanover
Yet it's you who talk of evil. And the variables are many, but not limitless. There are important and then not so important issues. Which are the most important reasons is the interesting discussion here.My point here is that if we want to widen our scope to figure our why people act as they do, the variables are limitless, and are not simply explained by focusing on the select events that satisfy a narrative that evil is explainable as being reactionary. — Hanover
Even if what is right and wrong is important, I still would not base issues here on a moral judgement of good and evil. Or just bad people get into power than good ones. There was a reason that people did vote for mr Hitler in Germany, just as they voted into power mr Trump. Or mr Biden. Or anybody.Another possibility is that bad people assumed power and imposed their will on what might otherwise have been a better society.
That comes to mind as the cause in China, N. Korea, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Stalin's Russia, maybe even Putin's as well. — Hanover
I've said that in the Middle East when it comes to the Arab-Israeli conflict / Palestinian-Israeli conflict, you can find both sides being the victim and the perpetrator. That's what happens when extremists take the center stage.It's the distinction between explanations and excuses. The fact that I can find an explanation for why a murderer murders doesn't mean that serves as an excuse for his murdering. — Hanover
I've said that in the Middle East when it comes to the Arab-Israeli conflict / Palestinian-Israeli conflict, you can find both sides being the victim and the perpetrator. That's what happens when extremists take the center stage. — ssu
By mesh with western values I mean they didn’t conform with political, cultural and social norms. This isn’t a criticism of the Arabic way of life, they are just different to the established western world order. The blame for the failure to live peacefully alongside following the WW2 falls fairly and squarely on the U.S./U.K. coalition.
The decent into McCarthyism in the U.S. following WW2 and the pathological paranoia about communism is the root of the failure. — Punshhh
14:57 people do not look favorably on war as they did in the past and the great defection refers to the fact that the average person doesn't want to having to do with war in a way that they didn't past okay so let me say a little bit — Dr. Cheyney Ryan
Why is it you suppose that people cannot give them agency? — schopenhauer1
But then that swings both ways. The reasons for a hardliner like Netanyahu got to power was because of previous events that pushed it that way on the Pals side. — schopenhauer1
"[People] are increasingly separated by economic and political power, inevitably heightening social tensions and increasing the risk of societal breakdown," the report says.
Demanding an immediate ceasefire in Libya, including an end to the current attacks against civilians, which it said might constitute “crimes against humanity”, the Security Council this evening imposed a ban on all flights in the country’s airspace — a no-fly zone — and tightened sanctions on the Qadhafi regime and its supporters.
Adopting resolution 1973 (2011) by a vote of 10 in favour to none against, with 5 abstentions (Brazil, China, Germany, India, Russian Federation), the Council authorized Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to protect civilians under threat of attack in the country, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory — requesting them to immediately inform the Secretary-General of such measures. — UN Security Council Resolution 1973 (2011)
Arab League calls for no-fly zone over Gaza
Reuters
April 10, 2011 11:58 PM GMT+5
Updated 13 years ago
CAIRO (Reuters) - The Arab League called on the United Nations on Sunday to impose a no-fly zone over Gaza and lift an Israeli siege of the territory after a flare-up of violence that is stoking fears of a wider escalation.
The death toll since Israel launched retaliation for an attack on a school bus that critically wounded a teenager on Thursday has climbed to 19 Palestinian militants and civilians. — Arab League calls for no-fly zone over Gaza Reuters April 10, 2011 11:58 PM GMT+5
I am glad you asked that question.
Would you agree that neither the Palestinians or the Israelis or the Jews at that time had any agency in the creation of this conflict, but mainly puppets in the great powers who decided their fate? — FreeEmotion
Care to trace the chain of cause and effect to its roots? — FreeEmotion
But more proximately, Israel, the modern state, was an idea that came about in the 19th century and borne out of the nationalism that was prevalent of that time. But the same can be said of Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, and you name it. The reality of Israel came about through the realization that Jews in the Western world (and that includes populations in Arab centers which traditionally have been "treated" a bit better than Europe prior to Israel), because history has demonstrated a rampant hatred of this group through the generations and culminating with the holocaust (and is that some sort of "End of History" moment for humanity or the Jews in general, or can that happen yet again, and again and again.. hence the idea that perhaps a location related to the group's origins makes sense for there to be at least one place for the people not to be continually at the whims of whatever country they belong). — schopenhauer1
A muscular, tanned figure, rifle in hand, tanks and fighter jets at their back. — Echarmion
Most of what you said seems to be a certain sentiment except the war imagery at the end. It was probably a mix of just wanting to feel secure and I would think most families would rather the image be collective farmers, fishermen, builders, engineers, etc just living life building the land. Being a citizen soldier is just a necessity not the driving force. If your existence is on the line though, surely fighting in the army is not a remote possibility but a necessity. — schopenhauer1
Well I can't really make any claim in my own right. But it made sense to me as a reaction to trauma. — Echarmion
Israel is not just another nation state. It's not just an anachronistic quasi colonial project. It's also a product of the Shoa. It's a promise that, the next time, the jews will not be helpless. — Echarmion
Or because Netanyahu had himself a role to play in the derailment of the peace-process, as Bibi himself has bragged about:The reasons for a hardliner like Netanyahu got to power was because of previous events that pushed it that way on the Pals side. — schopenhauer1
“I know what America is,” asserted Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. “America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won’t get in their way.”
This quote from the hard-line right-wing Israeli leader is well-known. What is much less known are the more egregious comments he made at the same time.
A 2001 tape of Netanyahu speaking in private to a group in an illegal settlement in the occupied West Bank was leaked in 2010. In the video, Netanyahu’s extreme views are made clear.
The only way to deal with the Palestinians is to “beat them up, not once but repeatedly, beat them up so it hurts so badly, until it’s unbearable,” Netanyahu insisted in the video.
He claimed “that the only way to deal with the Palestinian Authority was a large-scale attack,” Tablet Magazine reported.
Netanyahu also “boasts of having derailed the Oslo accords with political trickery,” Tablet added.
“I de facto put an end to the Oslo accords,” the then-former prime minister bragged.
(LA Times)Appearing angry but composed, Yitzhak Rabin’s widow, Leah, bluntly criticized her husband’s political opponents Tuesday, claiming that they created and even encouraged the hateful climate that inspired his assassination.
Just a day after the funeral, still gracefully accepting the condolences of friends, Rabin’s strong and articulate wife of 47 years recalled the many personal verbal attacks that hurt her husband but never dissuaded him from his single-minded pursuit--”like a bulldozer,” she said--of peace.
So upset was she with the moderate rightist members of the Knesset, the nation’s Parliament--who she claimed stood by while extremists harassed Rabin--that she admitted snubbing Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the opposition Likud Party, at the funeral by being “as cold as I could be.”
“Surely I blame them,” Leah Rabin said of the Likud members, her husband’s most vocal critics in the Knesset. “If you ever heard their speeches, you would understand what I mean. They were very, very violent in their expressions: ‘We are selling the country down the drain.’ ‘There will be no Israel after this peace agreement.’ I mean, this was wild.”
And if you want to hear it, yes, also there were those terrorist attacks on Israelis. As I've said, the extremists dominate the scene. — ssu
If I say extremists take over, what I mean is that they do take over because they are popular. And because "appeasement" of trying to form a peace deal, a two nation solution, isn't. So I'm not against you here, Bibi is basically the most successful Israeli politican ever. Yet I think that the politicians themselves have a lot do with this. It's not like a tide has swept them even if they would have wanted a peace deal.But my point with that last post referencing Nicholas video was to show how it is that Netanyahu started to become favored over the ones willing to go for peaceful two-state solution (even AMIDST Hamas' suicide bombing campaigns). It doesn't turn that way overnight. — schopenhauer1
Bibi and others then reason that it's been the withdrawal that caused then the bombing of Israeli settlements and everywhere where Israel has tried to "negotiate", only failure has followed. Not that going off an occupying other countries will create insurgencies and escalate the conflict. — ssu
Hezbollah then followed them to the border basically as the proxy arm of the IDF, the South Lebanese Army, immediately collapsed with it's members seeking refuge from Israel. — ssu
If I knew Palestinian politics better, I would assume that the fate of those who tried aggressively to get a two state solution by negotiating with the Israelis are as unpopular as the Labor party is now in Israel. Religious fanatics rule. — ssu
So, you can try to use the talking points about Netanyahu, but I would certainly call you out on overmining the shibboleth for any and every ill of Palestinian society and mentality.
So how does one counteract that kind of deranged barbarism?
How do the moderate Pals form a state with these kind of players to control? — schopenhauer1
Israel wanted to erase PLO from operating from Lebanon. That was the "funsies" you asked about. PLO is no not firing rockets or terrorist attacks from Lebanon. Hezbollah is for that there now. And do you wonder why?This seems to be pretty tenuous argument as it is basically generalizing the end of a conflict that had determining factors for why Israel was battling the PLO in Lebanon. It's not as easy as Israel just wanted to go in there for funsies. — schopenhauer1
I'm confused why you would say Hezbollah was the "proxy arm of the IDF". — schopenhauer1
the proxy arm of the IDF, the South Lebanese Army, immediately collapsed with it's members seeking refuge from Israel. — ssu
I think you meant the South Lebanese Army was Israel's proxy (though even that is a bit tenuous)? — schopenhauer1
Now I'm the one confused. Please try refrain the question because I don't understand what your point is.So, you can try to use the talking points about Netanyahu, but I would certainly call you out on overmining the shibboleth for any and every ill of Palestinian society and mentality. — schopenhauer1
Now I'm the one confused. Please try refrain the question because I don't understand what your point is. — ssu
So how does one counteract that kind of deranged barbarism?
How do the moderate Pals form a state with these kind of players to control?
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.