It wasn't a comment on your proposal; it was on your view of achieved and achievable progress. — Vera Mont

But I don't put a time limit on my proposals of what would be a better way to live as human beings.
I do insist that we will get there however. Even if it take another million years. In the cosmic calendar, 1 hour is more than 1.5 million years.

I have often also accepted that we may well drive down many more horrific dead ends first.
As I stated, we will keep getting it wrong until we get it right.
I accept that you think our species will have to experience an almost, close to extinction event, before we learn how to 'get it right.' Would that be an accurate summary of your position?
I remain confident that it wont get as bad as that. I think that's the only main difference between us, or do you see more important differences in our viewpoint compared to that one?

I accept that you think our species will have to experience an almost, close to extinction event, before we learn how to 'get it right.' Would that be an accurate summary of your position? — universeness

Close enough. That's the optimistic end of my spectrum.

I remain confident that it wont get as bad as that. I think that's the only main difference between us, — universeness

Correct. Ish. Close enough.

Then I think the imagery and invocations involved in an emotive but accurate statement, such as 'we/they/I will be back and we/they/I will be millions/billions, encompasses both of us.
Such thoughts, help me maintain that 'optimism,' that you and @180 Proof find so naive.
Do you not feel connected to those in the past that fought/died/failed/succeeded to do what they could to change peoples lives for the better? Or do you think they should not have bothered trying as our species is doomed anyway?

'Happy warriors' prepare for the worst, strive for the best, and gladly take whatever comes. :death: :flower:

Do you not feel connected to those in the past that fought/died/failed/succeeded to do what they could to change peoples lives for the better? — universeness

Of course I do. 'Histories are ghost stories', which haunt us, whether or not we believe them.

Or do you think they should not have bothered trying as our species is doomed anyway?

Living things survive in spite of – not because of – their inevitably "doomed" state. Facticity. Entropy. Extinction. "The blues is life itself." "One must imagine Sisyphus happy." After all, there ain't no immaterialists in foxholes. :fire:

Of course I do — 180 Proof

That's all that matters to me. As even though you are prepared for, or perhaps even expect the worse, you will continue to strive for the best, why is that? Is it more than mere forlorn hope?
What do you think of this.

If you are falling from a tall building, you may as well flap your arms, you have nothing to lose!
(I think the idea here is, you might catch a a grip on a flagpole or such, on your way down.)

Is the fight you have in you still, more, less or equal to this? For me, of course it is much much more than this.

As even though you are prepared for, or perhaps even expect the worse, you will continue to strive for the best, why is that? Is it more than mere forlorn hope? — universeness

Like breathing or a beating heart, defiance – striving – is involuntary. Conatus, will to power / amor fati, revolt. A 'happy warrior' does not succumb to the despair of "hope". :strong:

That is not necessarily the case. This was a run-down, trouble-prone housing project near the hospital where I worked. It got better since that time. There are many community gardens in big cities in the US, too. As gardening brings people together, so can an industry or reclamation project.

Any neighbourhood can become a community; given the resources and freedom, any well-functioning neighbourhood can become a self-governed political unit. One of the key factors to involve everyone, down to the toddler old enough to remember which weed to pull and big enough to carry a thermos, in the planning and in the work, to the extent of their capability, as well the benefits. Not to do things for other people, but with other people. — Vera Mont

What you said is agreeable but who is going to put in the effort to make that happen and how can such a dreamer activate the community? I am in the Bethel district and monthly I am notified about the committee's plans and I have done nothing! Especially since the meetings have been online, I have no desire to participate, yet I really want to address education and take action to make civic education mandatory. I think I am doing all I can do with my present commitments and that I don't have the energy to do anymore.

I have worked in a community garden and strongly agree with what you said. I don't think there is a community garden in Bethel and maybe I could do something about that, but until I end my present commitments I just don't have the energy to do more. But keep sending out your message and my desire to take action might get stronger than my concern about not having enough energy to do more.

Like breathing or a beating heart, defiance – striving – is involuntary. Conatus, will to power / amor fati, revolt. — 180 Proof

To me, that describes what true spirituality is, when it is directed against injustice.

I think I am doing all I can do with my present commitments and that I don't have the energy to do anymore. — Athena

who is going to put in the effort to make that happen and how can such a dreamer activate the community? — Athena

You do what you can Athena, as will I. I would rather be too busy, than be too bored.
My work in education burnt me out but since my early retirement, I now have quite a pleasant, 'fight for what I think is right' / chill out, have some whisky, beer and good cheers, paint, write, play computer games, etc, balance. Getting the balance to a stage that suits you, is what is needed. You cant help others, if you are 'messed up' yourself.

I think the answer lies somewhere between more help for those on the front line, from AI based expert systems and the establishment of more robust grievance procedures when you don't agree with the actions or decisions of your line managers. I think this would apply to all service based employment. — universeness

Okay, that is so for most schools and hospitals and social services. Reading your story I see only one possible solution that does not mean change but does mean good reasoning. Focus on facts! As long as you were giving parents facts, those above should be supportive of you and they too should deal honestly with the facts. How dare those SOB's leave a child believing his/her failure is his/her fault because s/he is just too stupid to succeed and the parents believing it is the child that needs to be corrected not what happens in the classroom. When parents understand the problem, they will hopefully be able to hire a tutor. Deal with the school's limits in a sane way! And here comes the cultural point....

We absolutely must end autocratic order that leaves those on the frontline powerless and failure unavoidable. Your favoring of AI terrifies me because it can make the problem worse. Can you see the possibility of our reliance on AI becoming a total nightmare? We must empower the people, not take another step towards destroying their power.

To me, that describes what true spirituality is, when it is directed against injustice. — universeness

A post from an old thread Ethics in four words ...

Flourish By Minimizing Harm.

Liberty By Minimizing Injustice. — 180 Proof

Ethical & political, respecticely.

:up: and such comes :100: from the human mind and I get sooooooo annoyed when some folks give credit for such moral standards, completely, to the god that they believe in, but have no evidence for its existence.
That's one of my biggest issues with theists. All good that humans ever achieve, either individually or collectively is credited, by theists to their particular god, and all bad performed by individual or groups of humans is blamed on human free will alone. You cant get more unjust than that!

You do what you can Athena, as will I. I would rather be too busy, than be too bored.
My work in education burnt me out but since my early retirement, I now have quite a pleasant, 'fight for what I think is right' / chill out, have some whisky, beer and good cheers, paint, write, play computer games, etc, balance. Getting the balance to a stage that suits you, is what is needed. You cant help others, if you are 'messed up' yourself. — universeness

Thanks, I do understand. I am taking off for the beach today. It is not a great day for the beach but the recreation center bus goes today and I have a great raincoat. This is a rare event because I have clients 5 days a week and don't usually take time off for me.

And this chatting is what got us in the lounge. At least here we are free to be full humans and I think that is very important to everything else. Human relationships strongly impact everything. How we understand each other, strongly impacts what we think of someone and what we think that person thinks of us. It seems like we are trying to close out this humanness with unrealistic standards. Such as teachers should work miracles despite the lack of support and parents should help their children despite not having the preparation that teachers have. All these demands without concern for the bottom line- how do we feel.

I see that as a cultural problem made worse by technology. Comparing ourselves to computers is worse than comparing ourselves to the gods.

We absolutely must end autocratic order that leaves those on the frontline powerless and failure unavoidable. — Athena

:100: I am a democratic socialist and a secular humanist.

Your favoring of AI terrifies me because it can make the problem worse. Can you see the possibility of our reliance on AI becoming a total nightmare? We must empower the people, not take another step towards destroying their power. — Athena

I have spent my career in Computing science and AI can be a fantastic assist to humanity, in all the problems they face, on a day to day basis, both individually and as a community.
In my experience, 'expert systems,' have helped our children's education, advance, more than (or at least as much as) direct interaction with people/teachers/school systems.
Absolutely yes, yes, yes! Athena, AI can be used to spread fake news and AI can be used to deceive and manipulate. But please remember, that is only currently done via nefarious humans, not nefarious mecha. I don't know if a future AGI/ASI would become anti-biological life, such as anti-human life. That has been a long time discussion on TPF and is currently a main discussion happening on-line and in the global media today. So far, the only evidence I have encountered that suggests projected mecha might turn against us, is in sci-fi productions.
The warnings recently stated by those in the field of AI, regarding projected AI advances, seem to me, to be currently concerned more about how some nefarious humans might manipulate AI advances, rather than how AI might become independently malevolent towards us. Do You agree?

My head is screaming we must replace autocratic industry with a democratic model. All the workers need to feel appreciated and we need to respect the whole person by empowering the individual to say what would improve the working conditions and therefore manifest a better outcome for everyone.

I attended workshops teaching the democratic model for supervisors and was blown away by realizing how the democratic model of Industry would greatly improve the quality of our families because the democratic model treats everyone very well and the worker who learns how to treat others well will bring this home to the family. — Athena

Thanks for your input. :halo:

What you are saying here appears to be close to democratic socialism perhaps?
Which is quite fine in my book. Just wanted to get your feedback on that.
Now for a country like the USA to get a TRUE democracy joined with a TRUE socialism is the difficult part.
It’s difficult because the Elite (rhymes with excrete) the 1% and their servants and wannabes are pulling with all their mighty might in the opposite direction.
(Sorry, if it’s been covered already in this long thread. If so, point me to it).

What you just said is fundamentally the same as what universeness said. — Athena

Oh no! I take it all back then! (just kidding :blush: )

Thanks, I do understand. I am taking off for the beach today. It is not a great day for the beach but the recreation center bus goes today and I have a great raincoat. This is a rare event because I have clients 5 days a week and don't usually take time off for me. — Athena

Hope you have a brilliant time!

And this chatting is what got us in the lounge. At least here we are free to be full humans and I think that is very important to everything else. Human relationships strongly impact everything. How we understand each other, strongly impacts what we think of someone and what we think that person thinks of us. — Athena

That sound like good philosophy to me! The personal philosophy people use and live by every f****** day! Surely has a place on TPF. If that place is the lounge, then so be it. I hope we can each sit on a nice comfortable lounge recliner, and discuss the individual philosophy we each have amassed, that influences the way we live and the actions we might take, day to day.
As I have already stated, a thread title such as 'Culture is critical,' casts a wide net imo.

. Such as teachers should work miracles despite the lack of support and parents should help their children despite not having the preparation that teachers have. All these demands without concern for the bottom line- how do we feel. — Athena

You remind me of the response I got from the 5 parents, who caused such a brilliant fuss when I told them the truth, about why their kids were not doing so well in that class. Two of them almost whispered to me, that they intended to take what I had told them further, but they would say to the headmaster that the information did not come from me, but from their child. This shows how familiar they were with the kind of bullshit consequences 'whistleblowers' can face and they wanted to try to protect me from such. These are good people. But I told them I was happy for senior management to know I was the source. The senior management team was treating this class like this, purely to save money. Its much cheaper to try to cover a class internally due to an absent member of staff than it is to find a replacement outside subject specialist. The system is called 'please takes.' Any teacher in the school, can be asked to take the class of an absent teacher for a period. The PT of the department is expected to set work for the class and the 'please take' teacher would simply babysit it. BUT, this was a higher computing class. The result could mean entry or non-entry into a desired university degree course. This class was getting 'please take' teachers for 3 out of the 4 periods they had in a week. This is within the rules but will totally 'f*** up,' their chances of completing the course successfully. Totally unacceptable, imo. My report to those 5 parents forced those senior management idiots to pester the region to fork out for a temporary replacement subject specialist.
This is only one of the many tedious battles I had with my line managers to try to get the pupils in front of me, what they needed. Again I am not saying that my line managers were all f***wits that did not care about the pupils but I do say that too often, they would not fight for the pupils, if it meant going up against their own line managers.

Do you not feel connected to those in the past that fought/died/failed/succeeded to do what they could to change peoples lives for the better? Or do you think they should not have bothered trying as our species is doomed anyway? — universeness

Case by case. Some past efforts were seriously misguided; some had the right idea and tried to achieve their goal by the wrong means; some chose unwisely in their alliances; some were clever and competent and persistent. I am connected, Dog help me!, to all of humankind. And while I feel just as, or more connected to the animal kingdom, the dolphins won't invite me on their exodus.
We might have done better but for a handful of terrible decisions. We had some pretty awful tendencies from chimphood on, which we might have been able to overcome with intelligence in all that time you think we have. But we took a wrong turn; embraced the wrong side of our character, and so lost our way to enlightenment - even our Enlightenment was fatally flawed. There were decisive moments when we could have gone changed direction, but we have somehow gotten into the habit of following all the wrong leaders and ignoring all the best advice. The very last such moment that I'm aware of was 1980. We didn't take corrective action then, and have now passed the point of no return.
And I still hold out hope for the species. It's the civilization that is doomed.

What you said is agreeable but who is going to put in the effort to make that happen and how can such a dreamer activate the community? — Athena

Lots of people have, and are doing it. https://ecovillage.org/urban-ecovillages-north-america/

I hope it's the right video this time.

You cant get more unjust than that! — universeness

Damn real! I liked Jesus - at least in the pictures where his heart wasn't exposed (*shudder!*) until I read the NT. So there he is, this hero with super powers, and how does he use them? He smites a fig tree because it's not the season of fruit, and then throws a herd of innocent pigs off a cliff. At 12, I had very strong sense of justice. I've tempered it with some forbearance since then - a feat the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god couldn't manage.
No, that's not fair! He was actually doing a little better in the ecumenical 1960's, except he did nothing about the child molesting - too busy scoring football goals in Brazil? Then got hijacked by white southern Baptist preachers in pursuit of fast bucks and political clout. "So it goes.... "

I am connected, Dog help me!, — Vera Mont

You still have 'us'!!!

And I still hold out hope for the species. It's the civilization that is doomed. — Vera Mont

There are many aspect of our current global civilisation that I hope are absolutely doomed! So, we both think our species will survive all of the threats it currently faces. That's quite optimistic of you, all past posts considered. :party:

Damn real! I liked Jesus - at least in the pictures where his heart wasn't exposed (*shudder!*) until I read the NT. So there he is, this hero with super powers, and how does he use them? He smites a fig tree because it's not the season of fruit, and then throws a herd of innocent pigs off a cliff. At 12, I had very strong sense of justice. I've tempered it with some forbearance since then - a feat the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god couldn't manage.
No, that's not fair! He was actually doing a little better in the ecumenical 1960's, except he did nothing about the child molesting - too busy scoring football goals in Brazil? Then got hijacked by white southern Baptist preachers in pursuit of fast bucks and political clout. "So it goes.... " — Vera Mont

A great paragraph that I hope many theists read.

So, we both think our species will survive all of the threats it currently faces. — universeness

Just not in the same way that you envision. This time-line has to break before a new one can begin. The breakage itself will be.... unpleasant.

Nobody should have a job. Jobs destroy integrity, self-respect, family, community and democracy. As long as humankind is divided into employers and employed, masters and minions, democracy cannot flourish. — Vera Mont

:up: Exactly, not with the way most jobs are now. Although our culture agrees that nobody should have a job… they should have two or three jobs if they want the lights to stay on.
A savings account? What’s that? Let me google it…

If we could make work as fun and as casual as possible, like an Amish barn-raising… people would be falling over themselves to work. But we don’t have the sense of community as a family.
Where is the love? :love:

Where is the love? — 0 thru 9

It's out there!

Nearly 51% of the U.S. population age 16 and over, or 124.7 million people, informally helped their neighbors between September 2020 and 2021 at the height of the pandemic, according to the latest Volunteering and Civic Life in America research released today.
In response to a separate question, more than 23% of people in that age group, or 60.7 million, said they formally volunteered through an organization during the same period. ...
The research, released every two years, shows that those who formally volunteered gave more than 4.1 billion hours of service with an estimated economic value of $122.9 billion.

The economy would fall on its face without the people helping - that's beyond their own family obligations - without financial recompense.

:up: Well that is good news! And only a fool would argue with good news.

Thus, Let me begin my arguments… :wink:

.... Ergo, what these same people, and many more will be doing, once they have no 7-3 and 5-midnight jobs to be on time for or get docked on their already meager pay, is helping people in their community, cleaning up the streets and parks, repairing the ex-tenements, visiting the disabled and lonely, organizing street parties and free-to-all sporting events, painting pictures they don't need to sell, restoring furniture they don't need to flip, learning new skills from one another and playing.
If only they don't get bombed, starved, burned or flooded out.

I have spent my career in Computing science and AI can be a fantastic assist to humanity, in all the problems they face, on a day to day basis, both individually and as a community.
In my experience, 'expert systems,' have helped our children's education, advance, more than (or at least as much as) direct interaction with people/teachers/school systems.
Absolutely yes, yes, yes! Athena, AI can be used to spread fake news and AI can be used to deceive and manipulate. But please remember, that is only currently done via nefarious humans, not nefarious mecha. I don't know if a future AGI/ASI would become anti-biological life, such as anti-human life. That has been a long time discussion on TPF and is currently a main discussion happening on-line and in the global media today. So far, the only evidence I have encountered that suggests projected mecha might turn against us, is in sci-fi productions.
The warnings recently stated by those in the field of AI, regarding projected AI advances, seem to me, to be currently concerned more about how some nefarious humans might manipulate AI advances, rather than how AI might become independently malevolent towards us. Do You agree? — universeness

Absolutely not possible that a computer program can be more important to a child's learning than the teacher. What motivates us to learn is not a computer program but our human contacts. Oh, if you have an anti-social, angry young man, he may delight in using the computer to find out how to make bombs, but that is the most important education for a child. I think directing the student to use the computer rather than interact with the student because there are too many students in the room, could lead to a problem.

Last night on the news was an interview with the woman who wrote "Your Face Belongs to US". Face recognition technology is not widespread yet, but it has been used to direct security to prevent a person from entering places. Imagine someone like Trump with that technology. It does not matter that AI would or would not decide to do something evil because the humans who use it, gain the power to do evil. It does not take more than a handful of people to do a lot of evil, like spread the lie the vote was corrupted and the country must be protected by those who fight against the evil of corruption because good people can so easily be led to do the wrong thing.

I am not worried about AI being anti-human. I am worried about us being anti-human. Thinking computers are superior to humans or can be, is dangerously anti-human. We are not born knowing everything in our lifetimes we can make terrible mistakes as we stumble through life. However, I think the only way things can better is for us to truly love each other. If the God of Abraham didn't have favorite people and if this belief did not go with a Satan and demons, and believing in curses and give us a totally false story of creation, religion might be a good thing. I think we need to work on a good religion, not AI that can give a human terrible power.

Socrates and Plato were strong on us learning morality before we held the power to govern.

What you are saying here appears to be close to democratic socialism perhaps?
Which is quite fine in my book. Just wanted to get your feedback on that.
Now for a country like the USA to get a TRUE democracy joined with a TRUE socialism is the difficult part.
It’s difficult because the Elite (rhymes with excrete) the 1% and their servants and wannabes are pulling with all their mighty might in the opposite direction. — 0 thru 9

I do not like labels and I know nothing about socialism because I ignore labels. I also do not pay attention to human names but what a person does will get my attention. I don't have a head for individuals but perhaps a universalness? How do I say? My head asks where is humanity going and what is the best way to get there? This is not about me and you, but us. Does that make any sense?

universeness favors socialism and perhaps the two of you can agree on what it is and share that with me. I understand democracy as individuals having liberty and justice. Democracy enables people to be the best they can be, but autocracy prevents that. In an autocracy, you do not dare be insubordinate! this mentality prevents people from making their best contribution and it can lead to serious economic problems because it means Industrial problems do not get the full benefit of having humans who enjoy doing the right thing for the good of all.

I am concerned that socialism may require government control and that disempowers individuals.

As for the elite intentionally protecting the autocratic status quo, yes, I believe that is so. We do not have a good understanding of democracy. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended.

Whoo I just realized how paradoxical my thinking is. We are a small part of something much bigger than ourselves, yet we are individuals with liberty and justice.

I am concerned that socialism may require government control and that disempowers individuals. — Athena

Which individuals are most empowered by lack of government control?

Thanks for your response. :smile:

More and more, I’m leaning towards democratic socialism.
I was pulling for Bernie Sanders, but I don’t think the country was ready for him, unfortunately.
Seems to me the two (democracy and socialism) go together like peanut butter and jelly.
But one without the other leads to some kind of imbalance.

I’m no expert in political science, so I’m probably over-simplifying this…

Socialism without democratic representation seems like it’d slide into Soviet abuses of power.
Democracy without socialism is kind of the status quo in the USA.

I suppose technically the USA is a constitutional democratic federal republic.
What is most important (politically and metaphysically) is not so much what we ARE,
but what we WANT to be, and CAN be, and CHOOSE to be right now.

But… (and there’s always a big ‘but… ‘).
Big Money needs the government to make the laws favorable for maximum profits.
Government officials need Big Money for money lol.
The only losers are the pesky citizens who keep claiming they have rights.

By the time state-sanctioned Capitalism has its way with us, we are like the character in the fairy tale who sold his cow for some magic beans. (for example, ‘health care’ = you pay us now for insurance, then later we perform unnecessary surgery and tests and give you toxic drugs in order to maximize both our profits and the profits of our cronies).

From Wikipedia:

Democratic socialism is a left-wing[1] political philosophy that supports political democracy and some form of a socially owned economy,[2] with a particular emphasis on economic democracy, workplace democracy, and workers' self-management[3] within a market socialist economy or an alternative form of a decentralised planned socialist economy.[4] Democratic socialists argue that capitalism is inherently incompatible with the values of freedom, equality, and solidarity and that these ideals can only be achieved through the realisation of a socialist society.[5] Although most democratic socialists seek a gradual transition to socialism,[6] democratic socialism can support revolutionary or reformist politics to establish socialism.[7] Democratic socialism was popularised by socialists who opposed the backsliding towards a one-party state in the Soviet Union and other nations during the 20th century.[8]

I am not worried about AI being anti-human. I am worried about us being anti-human. — Athena

I Agree. :100:

Modes of "us being anti-human" (driven by material & symbolic, often manufactured, scarcities):
• over ten millennia of pathological dominance hierarchies (aka "civilizations" ... "hegemonies")
• consisting of enforced class-caste exploitation (e.g. imperialisms, monarchisms, (democracy-in-name-only) republicanisms, totalitarianisms)
• policed by indoctrinated sexual, racial/ethnic, tribal, sectarian descrimination (e.g. colonizing genocides / ethnic cleansings, mass enslavements, patriarchies & apartheids, 'strategic neglect' policies, anti-democratic economies, etc)...

Intelligent machines (AGI) can do no worse than what we humans have done and continue to do to each other (and our biosphere-descendants), and possibly intelligent machines might do much better than we can by, to begin with, eliminating and/or exponentially more equitably – humanely – managing resource scarcities. I suspect that we "anti-human" humans will only ever learn to be pro-human (in every practical and psychology sense) once we have been sufficiently removed from the evolutionary conditions – facticity – of scarcity that is constitutive of our "anti-human" atavisms. I'm convinced that the most likely prospect for pro-humanizing the human condition itself is, though quite risky, by machine intelligences automating global civilization ... before we anti-humanly off ourselves (through action or inaction) as a species. Appeal to a classical / liberal 'humanism' that never worked well enough to be adopted globally is just an empty utopian nostalgia for what never was and will never be on that basis alone.

Is anyone else sick of the cry of ‘YOU’LL SPLIT THE VOTE!!!’ every frickin time any 3rd party candidate sticks their head out of the ground in the USA? :vomit:

Well, here’s an idea… make a law that a candidate may delegate their votes to another party, if they themselves don’t win. They would have to be clear and upfront about it, of course.

For instance, Bernie’s imaginary son Bernie Sanders Jr runs for POTUS as an independent or socialist party. He states that if he’s NOT elected, his votes would swing to the Democratic nominee.

That way, we could see who people really want, not who they are afraid of not voting for because they are the lesser of two evils… or something.

Is this idea crazy? Even possible?

Democracy without socialism is kind of the status quo in the USA. — 0 thru 9

There is no functional democracy in the United States. A representative and relatively uncorrupted democracy tends toward socialism, simply by the power of numbers: given the chance, most people want and would vote for what's good for them, until you end up with a government that acts in the interests of most people most of the time. This is why, in America, you get this sort of thing a tour de force in misdirection.

Too Much Democracy Is Killing Democracy

And of course, socialism cannot exist in a non-democratic society, regardless of the label it sticks on its facade. That's why so many autocratic regimes go through the charade of elections.

That way, we could see who people really want, not who they are afraid of not voting for because they are the lesser of two evils… or something.

Is this idea crazy? Even possible?

It's a very modest proposition in the circumstances. And I doubt it's possible in the circumstances. No reform seems to be possible - until Premier Dumph abolishes the present form of government and stick all his detractors' heads on the spikes of the White House fence.

:up: Is that the best icon we can muster for "Right on, Brother!"