Unfortunately, I haven't read all of this thread.
I have a question: "Why is it in The Lounge?"
@Jamal @Baden and team.

I moved it to the Lounge because it’s more of a chat than a focused philosophical discussion.

OK. I think that was a mistake.
It's more than a 'chat'.
It's a fascinating philosophical conversation. Better than some on the 'Front Page'.
Hidden away. Such a shame...

I disagree. It’s mainly a long-term social area for three or four people talking informally and sometimes intelligently about many different topics, and not in a way that touches on philosophy, sociology, or other disciplines. This is not really a criticism, but it does mean that it doesn’t belong in the main area.

I disagree. — Jamal

Again, I disagree with your judgement. This thread is full of philosophy.
But, you're the boss.

:up:

But just to be clear, technically I’m one of three administrators.

technically I’m one of three administrators. — Jamal

Yes. I did notice Les Trois Mousquetaires - you, @Baden and @fdrake.
"All for one, and one for all"?

Yes... unless that's a trick question. :scream:

unless that's a trick question — Baden

What do you think is the real question? :chin:

Maybe you want my opinion on this issue? Honestly, I haven't read enough to pipe in, but I do understand the frustration of good lounge threads being backgrounded.

Maybe you want my opinion on this issue? — Baden

Yes, I would like that. Also from the OP @Athena and the participants.
From the last page alone: @praxis @universeness @Vera Mont @180 Proof
How would you describe this thread?
Is it only a 'chat' or is there more to it? Has it touched on philosophy? How valuable have the exchanges been? What ideas/posts have made you think? And think again...
Would it be out of place in the main area?

Honestly, I haven't read enough to pipe in, but I do understand the frustration of good lounge threads being backgrounded. — Baden

Given that there are 25 pages, its place in the Lounge doesn't seem to have done it any harm.
When was it moved here? Perhaps it already had enough momentum to motivate.

That being said, there will be those who haven't even noticed it, tucked away as it is.
I haven't read it all. Only sampled a few pages. That was enough for me to 'pipe in'.
I felt the need to question. But that's me being me. Avoiding housework.

That's a horrible view you have of what humans do. — universeness

The footage of a beach covered in oil, all in motion with floundering fish and waterfowl and some good guys attempting to save them was shown on broadcast news. The oil industry had to pay some money, which it quickly recovered in government subsidies. Car sales did not decline.

according to the International Energy Agency, fossil fuel handouts hit a global high of $1 trillion in 2022 – the same year Big Oil pulled in a record $4 trillion of income. In the United States, by some estimates taxpayers pay about $20 billion dollars every year to the fossil fuel industry.

Feel free to tell me where to shove my sadness/pity. — universeness

It's yours to bestow or withhold, just as my disillusion is mine to carry or abandon.

I have been contributing to this thread from its beginning by @Athena
I would first, again clearly state, my lack of academic qualifications in philosophy.
My field of academic expertise is Computing Science
I think however, that there is a great deal of philosophy in this thread and some chit chat as well.
I would use terms like social, political and cultural philosophy and perhaps even 'philosophy of life as a human,' but these are probably considered 'flippant' concoctions and associations of the word philosophy, which are not robust, academically accepted, uses of the word or field title as compared against those listed on TPF.

I don't think it should be in the lounge and I thank you for your protestation.
I also accept the mods/administrators decisions, even though I often disagree with some of them.
@Athena and @Vera Mont have lived very interesting lives imo, and the thread title 'culture is critical,' casts a wide net. I have really enjoyed my exchange with both of them on this thread and I have enjoyed the contributions of others. This is one of the best threads on TPF, if you ask me. @Athena and @Vera Mont are also two of the most interesting TPF members, that I have exchanged ideas and viewpoints with.
I am just about to post a response to another very interesting member of TPF, @180 Proof.
There are many other very interesting folks on TPF, including some that are mods and administrators.

But yeah, if TPF management introduced a democratic voting system, where there was a mechanism by which a decision made by the mods/administrators, could be overturned, if an agreed number of the 'active' membership, voted for such, based on an agreed minimum number of active members calling for such a vote. I think that would be a good and fair addition, to the way this site is managed. But, then, I am a democratic socialist! who does not own this site. :smile: But I am also expected to be banned at some point from TPF, according to some members. So, my suggestion here could only be taken forward by others, in that possibly inevitable eventuality.

This thread is full of philosophy. — Amity

It's so full of disparate topics and ideas and individual convictions, in no coherent pattern, that it belongs nowhere in particular. It reminds me of some long, wine-soaked nights of my youth. Nostalgic, y'know?

Your youtube link suggests maybe I/we are persuading you that we're circling the drain of our own ten thousand year
making ... :smirk: — 180 Proof

:lol: No sir. The points you and some other (shall I say doomsters or would you at least accept pessimists) folks make, when projecting the future of our species, based on reflections on our past, are well made and have a lot of supporting evidence.
I maintain however, that 'we' or perhaps I can only claim for sure, 'me,' as an optimist, about the qualities and future potential of our species, also have significant evidence, of past and current human endeavour to improve who we are, what we want, and how we choose to be, exist and progress.

We currently know of no other source of manifest purpose and intent, that can assign meaning and purpose to this, and within this, universe in the way that humans can and do.
We need to celebrate that, and we need to unite as a single species on this little pale blue dot. Then we can start to do what we seem, imo, compelled to do. Find out that which we don't know about yet.

That's the greatest adventure I can ever imagine, much much greater imo, than anything offered by deference to notions of gods and the very stupid decision imo, that many humans have made, to see ourselves as nothing more than unfortunate wretches, whose best chance of salvation is only available at the whim of supernatural intent and intrigue, and can only be awarded based on the ridiculous judgement of such.
You have not been fooled by such nonsense. My debate with you continues, for as long as I can communicate with you, on the basis that I still hope to convince you, to be more optimistic about the future of our species. Ditto with @Vera Mont.

The footage of a beach covered in oil, all in motion with floundering fish and waterfowl and some good guys attempting to save them was shown on broadcast news. The oil industry had to pay some money, which it quickly recovered in government subsidies. Car sales did not decline. — Vera Mont

Yeah, we all need to work much harder to prevent such. Do you think we can, if we all cooperate more.
Yeah Vera, I know I must sound like I am stuck on repeat, but it's not like I have not cited and exemplified the efforts that many groups all over the world are making, every day. I am just asking you to recognise those efforts a bit more, rather than handwave them away and minimise their efforts with such as:

Yes, I'm aware of them. My heart goes out to them. — Vera Mont

They need your support and active assistance not your sympathy.

It's yours to bestow or withhold, just as my disillusion is mine to carry or abandon. — Vera Mont

True Dat! (sorry just trying to kid myself that I am still hip!)

The points you and some other (shall I say doomsters or would you at least accept pessimists) folks make, when projecting the future of our species, based on reflections on our past, — universeness

And the effect of that past upon the present. Three main obstacles to the progress you envision:
It took 13 years to build the World Trade Center (badly) and 15 minutes to knock it down.
The good are armed with placards, shovels and stethoscopes. The bad have armaments up and down the wazoo, financed by the good and the indifferent.
Good people's actions are constrained by ethics, scruples and compassion; evil people's is not similarly hampered.

Okay, rather than respond to each of your three points, which I will still do, I first would ask, how would you combat such? I assume you don't want to just give up and surrender to such, as inevitable events and circumstances that there are no antidotes or solutions for?

I first would ask, how would you combat such? — universeness

I can't. And I have tried, while I was physically up to volunteering and marching. I still give money when I can, and write a lot of utopian guff. But that is, at its longest possible stretch, an ounce of mitigation to every pound of harm.

It's so full of disparate topics and ideas and individual convictions, in no coherent pattern, that it belongs nowhere in particular. It reminds me of some long, wine-soaked nights of my youth. Nostalgic, y'know? — Vera Mont

Yes, I can see that there is no coherent pattern.
But that's to be expected when it comes to a 4-month long philosophical conversation!
With 25 pages and 736 replies - that's a helluva long, wine-soaked night.
Like wine and cheese you and others have matured and I don't think this sharing of convictions, topics and ideas is a flippant chat.

I would first, again clearly state, my lack of academic qualifications in philosophy.
My field of academic expertise is Computing Science
I think however, that there is a great deal of philosophy in this thread and some chit chat as well.
I would use terms like social, political and cultural philosophy and perhaps even 'philosophy of life as a human,' but these are probably considered 'flippant' concoctions and associations of the word philosophy, which are not robust, academically accepted, uses of the word or field title as compared against those listed on TPF. — universeness

Philosophy might be an academic subject but on TPF, there is more of a mix. Some excellent contributors don't even consider themselves philosophers.

I think the discussion deserves to be Front Page. Perhaps in this subcategory:
Interesting Stuff
Politics and Current Affairs
Humanities and Social Sciences
Science and Technology

But the decision by @Jamal seems final and perhaps he is right!

But the decision by Jamal seems final and perhaps he is right! — Amity

Nah!

It's so full of disparate topics and ideas and individual convictions, in no coherent pattern, that it belongs nowhere in particular. It reminds me of some long, wine-soaked nights of my youth — Vera Mont

Exactly, it reminds me of that kind of thing too.

@Amity that is why it belongs in the Lounge, and also because it’s not just like any old wine-soaked evening, but like a wine-soaked evening that goes on for months.

like a wine-soaked evening that goes on for months. — Jamal

Plenty of those under 'Interesting Stuff'!
But I know when to leave it...with liver still functioning. Cheers.

I can't. And I have tried, while I was physically up to volunteering and marching. — Vera Mont

I believe you. But what you can still do, you should do. What you should not do, imo, is suggest that the efforts of those on the front line or in support of such, are hopeless and pointless. Don't surrender to tock, whilst tick is still ticking.

It took 13 years to build the World Trade Center (badly) and 15 minutes to knock it down. — Vera Mont

As horrific as that was, we humans are very, very good at rebuilding and starting again and we often rebuild better and stronger than before.

The good are armed with placards, shovels and stethoscopes. The bad have armaments up and down the wazoo, financed by the good and the indifferent. — Vera Mont

Only up to a point of that which is survivable. If the only input from the other side is to unleash hell upon us then, we will put the placards down and pick up/steal/make armaments, until we also have them up the wazoo. It has always been our final and most bitter choice, but when the masses make such a choice, the so called 'bad' soon fall, because most of their forces are actually made up of our kin!

Good people's actions are constrained by ethics, scruples and compassion; evil people's is not similarly hampered. — Vera Mont

A similar response Vera, only true up to a point of collapse, we can become evil to defeat evil but I agree we pay a terrible price when we choose that final option. But need and justice can mean there is no other option.

With 25 pages and 736 replies - that's a helluva long, wine-soaked night. — Amity

Just as well it was virtual; don't want to imagine the morning after.

Perhaps we can improve the status of the lounge threads. What is your take on the OP for this thread?
I've just opened another case of wine. I'm Glaswegian, we have some different ideas about party longevity.

Only up to a point of that which is survivable. If the only input from the other side is to unleash hell upon us then, we will put the placards down and pick up/steal/make armaments, until we also have them up the wazoo. — universeness

Yeah, right. Every two hundred years of so, we rise up against the oppressors and cut off their hydra heads. Even while the revolutionaries are binding their own wounds, new evil head grow and swallow up the gains. Time is always on their side. While we're rebuilding and improving, they're growing more heads and feed them. It always takes longer to build than it does to destroy. There comes a point when you don't realize it's not survivable until you are actually dying.

A similar response Vera, only true up to a point of collapse, we can become evil to defeat evil but I agree we pay a terrible price when we choose that final option. — universeness

There is no return from evil. When you become as they are, you are one of them.
When projected ends justify means, those means determine the actual end.

I've just opened another case of wine. — universeness

I've never tasted Scottish wine. Your whisky, OTH, is a thing of beauty and a joy forever.... We dabble in both, make some decentish potables. Parsnip wine was the most potent of my amateur efforts; elderberry was the most palatable.

Yeah, right. Every two hundred years of so, we rise up against the oppressors and cut off their hydra heads. Even while the revolutionaries are binding their own wounds, new evil head grow and swallow up the gains. Time is always on their side. While we're rebuilding and improving, they're growing more heads and feed them. It always takes longer to build than it does to destroy. There comes a point when you don't realize it's not survivable until you are actually dying. — Vera Mont

Two hundred years is no time at all considering a scale of almost 14 billion.
So how come Kings and aristocracies don't still rule in every country?
How come I can shout 'not my King,' in the town centre and not be hung, drawn and quartered?
How come unions exist?
How come I have human rights?
I could list a lot more hard fought for improvements but you probably know them all.

There is no return from evil. When you become as they are, you are one of them.
When projected ends justify means, those means determine the actual end. — Vera Mont

I think there is much truth in that first sentence but not so much in your second sentence. If the evil is removed then the next generation can do better. I agree that those who become evil to defeat evil are mostly destroyed by the experience, but if it can free the next generation from that original evil, then it is worth it, imo.

I've never tasted Scottish wine. — Vera Mont

Neither have I. The wine I mostly buy comes from California, is red and made by Earnest and Julio Gallo. Merlot or Cab Sav! I don't even know if wine is made anywhere in Scotland?

Your whisky, OTH, is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. — Vera Mont

Uisge Beatha (water of life/Scottish whisky). The peatyer the whisky the better the swally, at least for my tastes.

Parsnip wine was the most potent of my amateur efforts; elderberry was the most palatable. — Vera Mont

What what what??? par...snip? elder .... berry? :grimace: :yikes: :chin: I like red wine, made from grapes, about 11-12% full bodied, that's about the extent of my knowledge of quality wine.

So how come Kings and aristocracies don't still rule in every country? — universeness

Because they took different titles. It's a good enough disguise to fool many.

Two hundred years is no time at all considering a scale of almost 14 billion. — universeness

Only it's not measured on the cosmic scale, but in human life-cycles. It takes about 8 generations to build a viable nation; two to corrupt it and a single cohort to shatter it. In global terms, the next two hundred years will feel to the survivors like two million. Even without the several anticipated deployments of WMD withing the next two years, imminent climate changes will do us enough harm.

that's about the extent of my knowledge of quality wine. — universeness

I never said I made "quality wine", and if California is your hallmark, you'd be content with many Canadian vintages.
Yes, as far off into the rough of this topic it may be, you can ferment pretty much anything organic. (I do not recommend blood.) Apples, cherries, plums and pears can make acceptable wine and go on to become excellent brandy. To bring it a little closer to the fairway: in every culture I've heard of, alcohol and other psychotropic substances have played significant roles in social bonding, medicine, ritual and taboo.