I did not say that. Ignore my evidence if you want, make up your own fantasies about little fairies dancing on the taiji, but don't misrepresent what I wrote. I always thought you were a little goofy, but I didn't think you were dishonest too. — T Clark
You posted your opinion implying that the common Yin Yang symbol was used as input... — Gnomon
a, Coincidence image of interference between a reference SPDC state and a state obtained by a pump beam with the shape of a Ying and Yang symbol (shown in the inset). The inset scale is the same as in the main plot. b, Reconstructed amplitude and phase structure of the image imprinted on the unknown pump.
Thanks for that information. I asked TC where he got the information to support his assertion that the Yin Yang image was both input & output, and he did not respond. I guess I was supposed to take his word for it. But he didn't state his qualifications as an expert on the subject.You posted your opinion implying that the common Yin Yang symbol was used as input... — Gnomon
Have you looked at the original paper? (Which T Clark linked early in the thread.)
I just took a look and the caption under the only picture of the Yin-Yang symbol says:
a, Coincidence image of interference between a reference SPDC state and a state obtained by a pump beam with the shape of a Ying and Yang symbol (shown in the inset). The inset scale is the same as in the main plot. b, Reconstructed amplitude and phase structure of the image imprinted on the unknown pump. — wonderer1
So the published Yin Yang image seems to be a Red Herring*1. What does it reveal about entanglement? In what sense is the published image a "visualization of the wave function"? Can you enlighten me? — Gnomon
I didn't "misinterpret the paper", and I didn't "interpret the paper", because I didn't read the technical paper. I did request that others, more qualified, would interpret the significance of the symbol relative to the experiment.Do not assume that just because you managed to misinterpret the meaning of it, that it was MEANT to be misinterpreted. You said yourself that you're not qualified to interpret the paper. — flannel jesus
Note --- Speaking of "collapse of wave function", how would you take a picture of Schrödinger's Cat when it's both dead and alive? — Gnomon
I agree : picture-taking is an observation/intervention, that -- like silver & vampire -- is incompatible with mystery-shrouded superposition. And the irrational "arbitrariness" of the symbol/article juxtaposition is exactly why I started this thread. I was not trying to assert --- as some posters have assumed, and the quoted article seems to imply --- that Yin Yang is a "hard" scientific concept, instead of a "soft" philosophical conjecture.You wouldn't. By the time you can take a picture of something, the quantum superposition has already decohered.
It's good to see you've accepted the arbitrariness of the yin yang symbol in the context of this experiment. — flannel jesus
After Quantum Physics introduced Uncertainty into Science, and substituted Virtual Particles for Real Atoms, I suspect that quite a few disillusioned undergrads dropped-out of their physics programs. The most famous expression of the "switch" you noted is Feyman's "shut-up and calculate" quip*1. Since then, physics divided into large teams of experimental scientists (atom smashers) and a few individual philosophical (theoretical) scientists. But both groups are "chasing rainbows" that are more & more elusive. Also, the empiricists are typically distrustful of un-tethered Philosophical Reasoning for epistemological knowledge of Material Reality.↪Gnomon
My best friend, who passed away seven years ago, was a physics major up until the required introductory senior level course in quantum theory. He switched to mathematics and retired a fellow professor. A very bright guy - certainly smarter than me - but math made more sense at the time, easier to understand.
I think dropping a physics major at this crucial point of transition in thinking happens fairly frequently. Some become engineers, a profession using physics that moves along Newtonian lines. Well, maybe not so much electrical engineers.
It's a shame the forum doesn't have quantum physicists who might elucidate better than philosophical minded novices. But this is not a physics forum. Our best is not good enough. — jgill
Quantum mechanics is the governing theory. It's fundamental quality is that a system can be described by a vector in an abstract space, called a Hilbert space. The Hilbert space is the space of all possible measurement outcomes, so it is distinct from 3D space that describes the position of objects. For instance, the Hilbert space can be, and often is, infinite dimensional. A vector in Hilbert space has complex-valued coefficients and must be normalised to unity length. For an infinite dimensional space it must be square integrable.
Physical observables are described by hermitean matrices that act on the Hilbert space vector such that measurement outcomes are real-valued. The vector in Hilbert space evolves according to rotations induced by various interactions described in the Hamiltonian operator (or Lagrangian density). This is called unitary evolution, as the vector is just rotated preserving the normalisation.
Following a measurement, the Hilbert space vector is projected onto the measurement outcome. This evolution is considered non-unitary, as it is not a smooth rotation, but a projection.
So that is the underlying theory of quantum physics.
For quantum mechanics, we consider particles as immutable with various properties. This restricts the possible evolution of the associated Hilbert space. However, for fundamental particle physics, the particles appear to be transmutable. Therefore, the theory required a mechanism to allow for this.
The first transmutable particle was the photon. The quantum theory of the electromagnetic field identified a set of non-hermitian operators that corresponded to the creation and destruction of photons as energy quanta in the electromagnetic field. This was the first field theory. The key to this theory was the mapping of the electromagnetic field to the quantum simple harmonic oscillator in order to identify quantum operators that satisfy the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. These field modes can be used to construct any field configuration using the superposition principle according to the Fourier decomposition of the field. This opened the gates to modern quantum field theories. Other fields were introduced that gave rise to particles as excitations of the field in a way analogous to the role of the photon in the electromagnetic field.
From here is gets complicated as various symmetries need to be satisfied and self-interaction terms need to be dealt with. However, the theory is essentially the same, just with more widgets added to satisfy the properties observed in experiments. The Hilbert space is still there. Unitary evolution is still there. Hermitean operators are still there. The measurement procedure is still there.
With particle physics, one focusses more on the scattering terms in the Hamiltonian (or Lagrangian density). These are generally expanded as a perturbation series with the high order terms truncated. This allows the calculation of scattering cross sections that are applicable to particle physics experiments.
Thanks for that quickie quantum update. I assume the article is interesting to Theoretical/Mathematical Physicists. But, can you tell me, in a few jargon-free words, what that account means -- in the real world -- to a non-mathematical layman, or to an atom-smashing CERN physicist, or to a matter-molding Chemist?Here's a quick look at ground zero in quantum studies by Mark John Fernee for Quora: — jgill
*1. What is a Hilbert Space? :
In this blog, I aim to develop a comprehensive understanding of hilbert spaces cutting through the mathematical jargon. — Gnomon
Plus the class I took was explicitly taught in the Copenhagen interpretation, and a lot of the discussions around here try to differentiate between the interpretations and, at least as I learned it, there wasn't really a way to differentiate between the interpretations — Moliere
Yes. That seems to be the point that Heisenberg was making when he said " . . . . it's a question of translation : the conventional language of physics is fashioned according to the world we experience". But most of us don't directly experience the world on the subatomic level. So, it's an abstruse language for sophisticated initiates into the mysteries of the foundations of Reality. And easily misconstrued*1. The current issue (157) of Philosophy Now magazine has an article about Solving The Mystery of Mathematics. For the purposes of this article, the author -- Jared Warren -- rejects the Ideal definition of math as presented by Plato, and also the Real definition of math as "like the physics of this reality". Instead, he prefers a linguistic definition : "this is the idea that mathematical truths are a byproduct of our linguistic conventions".That's nicely done. I suppose my point is that QM is all sophisticated mathematics and equally sophisticated experimental processes. — jgill
Yes. I think you could safely say that Mathematics is a mental philosophical language that is used by Science to describe it's sensory observations precisely. Ancient math concepts were originally devised by desert civilizations -- Egyptians & Mesopotamians -- in order to understand why the stars (gods?) formed patterns that reminded men of terrestrial things & events : Astrology. Later, Greek logicians (e.g Euclid), with cloudier skies, refined geometry to make it more abstract and less subject to variable interpretations : Astronomy."this is the idea that mathematical truths are a byproduct of our linguistic conventions". — Gnomon
The interplay is certainly interesting. — jgill
JG, I'm not picking on you by posting long dissertations to your name. It's just that I'm on a roll here, expanding the topic of Quantum Entanglement is Holistic. And your math background may allow you to hold apparent paradoxes (counterintuitive results) in your mind, while keeping an open mind --- pax . For example, math has Paradoxes of infinity ; of set theory ; Probability theory : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mathematical_paradoxes . But those "non-commutative" sub-sets don't invalidate the consistency of mathematics in general. Note --- I'm using that term in an unconventional way.The interplay is certainly interesting. — jgill
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