Isn't this 'actively cultivating suffering' a fetish indistinguishable from other possible fascinations?

Okay, I'm sorry if I've upset you it was not my intention, I'm trying to resolve these thoughts within my own mind.

Isn't this 'actively cultivating suffering' a fetish indistinguishable from other possible fascinations? — Paine

Could you give some examples of these other possible fascinations so I can understand better?

:death: :flower:

Fear is your best friend or your worst enemy. It’s like fire. If you can control it, it can cook for you; it can heat your house. If you can’t control it, it will burn everything around you and destroy you. — Mike Tyson

I fear death and use that fear to live the best life I can every day so that nightly I can fall asleep at ease without needing any assurance that I will wake again. Like sleep and love, there's no need to seek, or hurry, death because it'll come when it comes. This life is a song, I feel, and its meaning is in singing, not ending, it.

I'm sorry if I've upset you — MojaveMan

What makes you think you've upset me? This subject doesn't come anywhere close to raising that kind of emotional response. I serenely and respectfully disagree with your stated position.

:heart:

I'm saying that because the fear of death is what drives humans to do everything. (Terror Managment Theory) — MojaveMan

Right. Well that's a load of codswallop, and maybe explains why you have everything backwards.

Most psychologists consider TMT to be a sort of evolutionary trait. Humans naturally became aware of dangerous threats as a means of preserving their lives and continuing their gene pool. The deep existential anxiety that comes with that knowledge is an unfortunate byproduct of this evolutionary advantage. — PsychologyCodswallop

Elephants have some awareness of death, and show interest in the bones of their deceased. But fear of dangerous threats is not at all the same as fear, or even awareness of death. Even a fly will try and avoid being squished. Proper psychology talks about adrenalin levels and the fight or flight response to such threats - this is the physiological response to threat, which does not distinguish fear from aggression.

And that response is on a totally different level (it is instinctive and physiological in origin), from any possible conscious awareness of death. To the extent that there is a specific fear of death, it is is much more likely to be social in origin. In civilised society sex and death are taboo. By custom they are kept hidden, not talked about, not to be seen by children. It is the hiding that invests death with particular significance and creates anxiety and the excitement of the forbidden.

Most psychologists consider CMT (Codswallop Management Theory) to be a valuable therapeutic tool in the management of psychobabble, the disease spread by the regurgitation of sensationalist nonsense composed of unsubstantiated claims mixed with random scientific terms to lend it some credence, such as 'evolutionary' and 'gene-pool', and 'existential anxiety'.

For me the known too comes in a wide variety of flavors. Some knowns are quite pleasant while others are the converse. — javra

Yes, that is how I characterise the unknown - by reference to the known. Because there is no other character I could conceivably give it. And hence no particular response it can evoke, except by association with something known. So if one arrives at a fear of death, it can only be by associating it with something known and feared - a fear of abandonment perhaps. Which is the loss of relationship. Whenever one imagines one's death, one imagines being alive to it, and that is where fear can arise.

All creatures who are aware of life are likewise aware of death. We humble homos seek meaning and purpose and in the process project it onto the world and pretend that we have found it! This to most is not good enough, my own grandmother is close to passing and she is a devout Christian, and I can tell she is absolutely terrified of the end. I believe this is the case for all rational animals, it's never good enough. But what if instead of being scared of death we actively try to make ourselves suffer and seek pain with the purpose of trying to force ourselves to want death? — MojaveMan

Wanting what you are going to get could be viewed as a form of Stoicism.

MojaveMan: “my own grandmother is close to passing and she is a devout Christian, and I can tell she is absolutely terrified of the end”
It’s not surprising that a religion which teaches the possibility of eternal torture would have followers who are afraid of dying. I don’t mean to say your grandmother has committed any great sins. But Christian denominations have different, contradictory views on how to be saved. Suppose I’m Catholic. Some Baptists say Catholics aren’t saved. Suppose they are right? That would certainly lead to fear of dying.

Moreover, it’s easy to accept what you’re told if it helps you get along in life. Ancient Greeks believed in Zeus. Ancient Aztecs believed in Quetzalcoatl. But death is real and accepts no bullsh*t. Maybe doubts about her religion are surfacing and she’s beginning to suspect what she believes about death and heaven may be untrue. Thus, death would be an unknown and fear of the unknown is understandable.

MojaveMan: “But it's the only thing we can really expect, so why not spend ones entire life preparing for what is certain?”
I agree but would express it differently. Death is real; bullsh*t beliefs aren’t. So, one preparation for death would be to try and really confront and understand reality, without the comfort of religion’s spoon-fed answers. If anticipation and/or fear of death motivates someone to search for the Real, I say that was a good thing.

Perhaps that article wasn't the best one to send I didn't read it I only googled the posted, that's my fault. Terror management theory at least to my knowledge and I could have it wrong of course says that once a creature obtains self awareness, they become aware of the end of the self and develope existential dread. To avoid this they manage the terror by creating everything, culture basically, hobbies, jobs, philosophy forum discussion. Basically distracting ourselves to stop thinking about death and create meaning. That's how I understand it and how I meant it.

And that response is on a totally different level (it is instinctive and physiological in origin), from any possible conscious awareness of death. To the extent that there is a specific fear of death, it is is much more likely to be social in origin. In civilised society sex and death are taboo. By custom they are kept hidden, not talked about, not to be seen by children. It is the hiding that invests death with particular significance and creates anxiety and the excitement of the forbidden. — unenlightened

Death is not taboo is simply uncomfortable to talk about and creates the sense of dread the terror comes first upon self awareness. And I don't understand the distinction between civilized and uncivilized here.

I agree it could be she's having doubts, or could be a mass murderer, I've known her a mere 25 years anything is possible. But how she talks she seems certain she's going to heaven and has nothing to worry about so that's all I can really know. But other than that we are in agreement.

Interesting, care to expand on that?

Death is not taboo is simply uncomfortable to talk about and creates the sense of dread the terror comes first upon self awareness — MojaveMan

There are many people who have never seen a dead human. When you see the dead, they do not terrify, any more than a sleeping human terrifies. They are rather boring as they do not wake up.

Psychology is full of theories of this sort that are long on explanation and short on justification. Freud also had a theory about the importance of death in the unconscious, and he went so far out of fashion as to be almost unmentionable. That this is just another plausible but out of fashion hypothesis is well supported by this comment:

Psychologist Yoel Inbar summarized the popularity of the theory:

I can not explain to people who were not around during this time - which I would say was roughly 2004 to 2008 - how much everything at the time was about terror management theory. You would go to SPSP and it seemed like half of the posters were about terror management theory. It was just everywhere. There is just an explosion of terror management theory stuff. And then it sort of receded. And now you barely see it. Which is also kind of weird. We were obsessed with this for a period of 3-5 years, then we moved on to other things

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory#Criticisms

It doesn't say much for psychology as a reputable science that this sort of thing goes on; I have argued elsewhere that there are particular features of the human sciences that make such errors almost the rule.

But it's the only thing we can really expect... — MojaveMan

Not really, no. People die only once; the rest of the time they can expect to live. Plenty of stuff to prepare for inbetween, like your next meal maybe. What's so important about that single moment that all your energy should be directed towards it?

As a kid, I confused fear of death for fear of dying. I was, am, and probably will be afraid of dying, but mostly because it's very likely going to be one of the more unpleasant moments of life. After the dying's done with? Nothing. So nothing left to worry about.

Well, that's a bit of a simplification. I do think beyond my death. I don't like the idea of my left-overs causing trouble (if I were involved in a messy accident, for example, I imagine I'd feel like apologising to the people who have to clean up, except I know won't be able to, me being dead and all). So I'm no stranger to projected unpleasantness. However, the mere fact that I'm here now, but won't be in a hundred years? This is something I'm entirely indifferent to.

I read the terror management article, and interestingly the coping strategies they mention are (all? mostly?) things I don't care for either: Leaving a legacy? What for, if I'm not around. Continuing my gene pool? How am I supposed to derive value from this? And so on. I don't think I ever really experienced that existential terror in the face of death. Other people dying, loss, is far more frightening than my own future non-existence.

These come to mind.

Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come. — S. Shakepeare -

I'm not scared of dying
And I don't really care
If it's peace you find in dying
Well, then let the time be near

If it's peace you find in dying
And if dying time is near
Just bundle up my coffin cause
It's cold way down there
I hear that's it's cold way down there
Yeah, crazy cold way down there

And when I die and when I'm gone
There'll be one child born
In this world, carry on, to carry on — Blood, Sweat, and Tears - When I Die

I'd forgotten this was written by Laura Nero. B,S,&T was a great band.

The true men of old
Knew no lust for life,
No dread of death.
Their entrance was without gladness,
Their exit, yonder,
Without resistance.
Easy come, easy go.
They did not forget where from,
Nor ask where to,
Nor drive grimly forward
Fighting their way through life.
They took life as it came, gladly;
Took death as it came, without care;
And went away, yonder — Chuang Tzu

The Master gives himself up
to whatever the moment brings.
He knows that he is going to die,
and her has nothing left to hold on to:
no illusions in his mind,
no resistances in his body.
He doesn't think about his actions;
they flow from the core of his being.
He holds nothing back from life;
therefore he is ready for death,
as a man is ready for sleep
after a good day's work. — Lao Tzu - The Tao Te Ching, Verse 50 (S. Mitchell)

just because death is an inevitable fact does not mean we should cherish or favour it.

Just as in the case that mint ice-cream exists, we do not have to worship mint ice-cream. We can opt for banana, vanilla, pistachio or any other preference.

They may be factual existants. This doesn't mean we must hold them in similar esteem to other existants.

Death is what it is. And it comes to all of us whether we want it or not, at a time that we do not know.

Does that mean we ought to seek it out? No. If it is a definite. Then we are liberalised in the fact that we need not worry about our demise. For it is a sure thing regardless of what we do.

So then it is simply logical to dismiss it as a given and continue doing that which we love until death finds us.

Constants or certainties are gifts in that we need not concern ourselves with them as they're out of our control.

They can be brought into our control if we wish to. But choosing to die now purposefully removed your potential agency for those things that can only be done when living. So in my opinion it's much better to focus on activities that can be done while alive. Be it experiences, emotions or lesson to be had.

For in death, none of these things can be had. Why die at 30 when you can die at 80? It gives you 50 years more of choices to make. Life to live, and hopefully love to be had.

Desiring what happens in congruity with Nature is one of the three Stoic Disciplines.

"Ultimately, the discipline of desire involves bringing our will into congruity with Nature. In this state of congruity with Nature, we will live every present moment desiring what happens rather than what we may want to happen."
Traditional Stoicism
The attitude to death would fit in this program nicely.

But what if instead of being scared of death we actively try to make ourselves suffer and seek pain with the purpose of trying to force ourselves to want death? — MojaveMan

I'm pretty sure that people fear pain and suffering. I know that I do. So for your plan to work we need to first figure out a way to not fear pain and suffering.

Yes, that is how I characterise the unknown - by reference to the known. Because there is no other character I could conceivably give it. And hence no particular response it can evoke, except by association with something known. — unenlightened

Yes, but in reference to your initial claim that we fear the loss of knonws (by which I initially understood: this via the presence of the unknown):

There are ample cases where the unknown, once experienced, only adds to that which is already known - rather than doing away with ready held knowns. The empirical future, for one general example, is replete with unknowns. But when knowledge of what tomorrow holds in store is acquired via immediate experience this does not, typically, dispel the empirical knowns already held. The unknown does not necessarily present a loss of knowns, in other words.

The unknown of what death is existentially - for those who don’t hold a belief of certainty regarding it - can conceivably be just such a type of relation between the knowns of today and the unknowns of tomorrow, so to speak. Hence, if death is an unknown, it will not thereby logically entail a “a loss of knowns”.

Only if one considers death to be a known state of nonbeing will death necessitate the loss of knonws.

So if one arrives at a fear of death, it can only be by associating it with something known and feared - a fear of abandonment perhaps. Which is the loss of relationship. Whenever one imagines one's death, one imagines being alive to it, and that is where fear can arise. — unenlightened

I translate this into a fear of suffering upon death and subsequent to it (rather than prior to its occurrence) - which, by the way, is a given in ideologies such as that of reincarnation.

Yet, taking at his word, he doesn’t believe in the possibility of suffering subsequent to death but yet finds death potentially fearful on account of losing awareness of all pleasant experiences acquired throughout life as an ego (by which I here merely mean an “I-ness” that experiences other). Something which I take to be more inline with loss of knows upon death (as I initially interpreted you as saying).

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BTW, as to fear of death as an ultimate unknown: no human is perfectly good; all have willfully done wrongs in life; this is a given. Some then fear the unknown of death in terms of how they will be judged by some form of what they might consider to be universal justice - ranging from notions of karma to notions of God. Of course though, again, this possibility will strictly apply to those who don't consider death to be the known state of nonbeing.

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As an aside, I guess in all this discussion the distinction should be made between “not wanting to die” and “fear of death”. All life lives by avoiding death and thus by either consciously or unconsciously striving against death, i.e. not wanting to die. Whereas the want to die to me borders on suicidal ideology.

All the same, one can well want to live in attempts to live life to the fullest without holding a fear, i.e. anxiety, about someday dying (regardless of how one interprets death: be it an unknown or else the known state of nonbeing).

There are many ways to hurt oneself and the compulsion to do so can take on a life of its own. But I don't want to compare your shadow with a darker one. Dostoevsky and Kafka can teach you enough about that.

I would rather ask you about what you enjoy. Does your work life completely bum you out or is there some portion that which is your art? And if you have that small portion, can you make it larger? Are you curious about what you do not know? Are you in love with anybody? If so, is it reciprocal?

These questions have kicked the ass of generations of mankind for time out of mind. I expect straight A's on those before considering your fascination with self-destruction.

Im not arguing for self destruction, I'm saying, perhaps if all else fails, wouldn't it be wise for a person to embrace suffering and hope that by the end of it they want to die instead of fearing it?

This embrace sounds like an obsession to harm oneself, using one kind of pain to distract from another.

It appears to be an inversion of the Bushido acceptance of death that frees you from fear and increases your ability to act. Your version seems uninterested in action, more like Dostoyevsky's Notes from the Underground.

I see that my questions about life did not interest you.

Because it is the only thing that is certain and I think we have to find some way to come to terms with it. — MojaveMan

Not sure if death is the only thing that is certain. For anyone facing the prospect/realisation of the inevitability of death, their birth was also a 100% certainty/inevitability in that it already happened. They're here afterall and death only applies to those that are living.

Other things are also certain, like your continuing freedom of choice until you die or are discapacitated.

There are many things under our personal control. And many things that are not under our personal control. And many things that ought not be under our control but we can make them under our control if we so wish, and likewise things that are under our control but we can make them not under our control if we so wish.

It's a complex dynamic for sure. Personally fixating on death is no less it more logical than fixating on life. Fixating on the past or future is no less or more important than fixating on the present moment.

Lastly, we did not suffer before being born. We just weren't and then suddenly were. No pain or suffering involved. I suspect death will be much the same.

So why we ought to want a state of total non awareness, is more of a reflection of how we qualify our current awareness. If we have endured an awful lot of suffering and are unhappy, then oblivion, a pure state of unfeeling, does seem quite appealing.

But if we enjoy our lives, if we value them, then death is something to be feared, as oblivion in this case is not as good as the joys and pleasures of awareness

If rebirth is not a thing, and this short and peculiar state of being alive is the only time in the entirety of the existence of the universe where we have agency, then its a no brainer. Might as well milk it for all its worth as we established death will happen regardless of whether we want it to or not. And that state would be much more enduring. 14 billion years of it so far. Why not indulge life while we can. That is our freedom, in such a state of being

"I'm saying it may not be sane to seek happiness and possessions, etc. if it will all get taken in an instant as you trip going up the stairs. (Knocking on wood for you!) But if you had actively cultivated suffering you might think, as your face hits the concrete, that this wasn't such a bad thing after all."

The proposed behavioral strategy: in comparison with the misery we inflict upon ourselves, we will welcome death with a sensation of relief, being happier than otherwise, “when we are finally free to die.” But if one dies falling down the stairs, one will not experience the relief. One will be in a state of panic for about 2 seconds with no time for reflection.

“ … but at the end of it all it's gone …”

If this is accepted, it undermines the strategy. The broadest categories related to the fear of death do not involve the experience of death.

On the one hand, within a mechanist’s view, to identify something as an experience one has to ruminate on past events by way of a physiological memory. Where there is no memory there is no experience, no suffering. Consequently, one will never actually experience death. Consequently, one will never experience this relief: “it wasn’t so bad after all.”

On the other hand, within the viewpoint of an eternal soul, one disagrees and says, “But I will experience death as I pass to the next life!” But then that could only mean that one believes one will (somehow) pass on one’s memories, and the identity that depends upon them, to another self-aware state “beyond” “death.” But that’s not the death of this self, this identity, this ongoing experience. The word “death” here refers to something very different. What we fear in this case is the continuation of predicaments not very different from what we experience in this life. We fear an uncertainty akin to that of a journey from one “place” to another “place.” This journey is not the death of my sense of self and memory-dependent identity.

Reincarnation? Or, one is resurrected but not with one’s memories and identity? If one resurrects or transmigrates without one’s memory intact, one is not who one was. It would be the death of this identity. This loss would bring us back to the mechanist’s view, that death is not experienced by “us.” Our present identities do not survive the journey.

In sum, death of identity will not be experienced. If we fear that experience, we misunderstand the predicament. It is losing the sense of self and identity that is feared, and that entails a value placed upon this life. In fact, what is there that we fear we might lose that we do not value with that very fear? Just so, if we fear the loss of happiness, we value happiness.

“… if you had actively cultivated suffering you might think, as your face hits the concrete, that this wasn't such a bad thing after all.”

This is just a backdoor to valuing happiness. If we are seeking this reward for our pains, and if rewards are by definition happier than punishments, then we are ultimately seeking to be happier, not more miserable. If our strategy is “it wasn’t such a bad thing after all,” then we are still talking about progressing from a more painful experience to a less painful one. We are still moving toward happiness, even if in the form of “not as miserable after all.”

1. We can’t experience the relief of death at death.
2. And a current proposal of relief is not the later, targeted relief.
3. And if the proposal involves no real “trade” between pain and relief, it serves no purpose.
• So why not just go through the front door and admit that the goal is to live happier or at least less miserably?

“What I'm suggesting is replace the fear with want, flip it on its head, fear life by making our lives full of suffering and pain, and love it when we are finally free to die.”

This sounds like deliberately buying a very bad novel and forcing oneself to read it all the way through just so that one can be relieved to be finally done with it. And why would one do this? Because one knows that when one reads a good novel one’s joy will turn to disappointment when one comes to the end … ? Does this disappointment devalue the good novel? No, it proves its value to us. It is the ending of the pleasure of reading that we devalue in the good novel, which means that we value the pleasure of reading it.

Just so, we value the happiness of living when we fear the loss of life and resist unrewarding pain and suffering. We devalue life, meaninglessly, when we deliberately seek out pains whose rewards we can never experience.

One only experiences life, not death. If one believes it is a test, one should strive to pass that test. If one fears the loss of one’s life, then one values that life to the degree of one’s fear. If making one’s life more valuable increases one’s fear of losing this life, then one will add courage to one’s ever appreciating life. The thrill of life is implied, contained, and emphasized by our courage in the face of our fear of its end.