• intrapersona
    530
    I know I don't want to live forever because that would be a drag, but I feel instinctively deep down in my unconscious like I want to live forever. It feels that if I don't live forever then everything I do is just a waste of effort. Yet despite this, I know that the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence. How can such contradictory thoughts/feelings be imputed on to the mind of man?
  • Bitter Crank
    4.1k
    I don't know the mind of all men but... I'm pretty sure that very few people would say

    if I don't live forever then everything I do is just a waste of effortintrapersona

    What do you think led you to this impasse? (And it is an impasse -- you are definitely not going to live forever).

    The proper course for you is clear enough, and its the same for everyone else: whatever worthwhile, acts of kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity (and more) you are going to perform, you had better do it while you are here.

  • intrapersona
    530
    I don't know the mind of all men but... I'm pretty sure that very few people would sayBitter Crank

    You must be living under a rock then. That question is incredibly popular. Just type into google "why live if you are going to die?" and see the immense amount of posts,articles, blogs etc. I have even seen it on this forum quite a bit.

    The proper course for you is clear enough, and its the same for everyone else: whatever worthwhile, acts of kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity (and more) you are going to perform, you had better do it while you are here.Bitter Crank

    Why is kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity the prime motive of my life? Tbh all I wanna do is fuck bitches get money... forever...
  • Noble Dust
    1.3k
    Yet despite this, I know that the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence.intrapersona

    How/why do you know that?
  • Noble Dust
    1.3k


    So, if it doesn't last... "forever"...why do good things versus atrocious things? Shouldn't I just do what catches my fancy? After all, eternity won't know the difference. How do you predicate this idea that I should do useful things?
  • intrapersona
    530


    Because you don't have to live forever in order for you to appreciate beauty.
  • Noble Dust
    1.3k


    Seems purely arbitrary. I actually agreed with everything you said in your OP other than this statement; the plague of posting on a philosophy forum: we focus on the negative. So, props on your OP, but...you said "the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence", I asked how/why you know that: you said: "because you don't have to live forever in order for you to appreciate beauty". So, basically this sounds like...some kind of fallacy, I'm too rusty on all of them to call it out. But, the simple point I wanted to make was: You made no argument as to why "the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence."
  • Bitter Crank
    4.1k
    You must be living under a rock then. That question is incredibly popular. Just type into google "why live if you are going to die?" and see the immense amount of posts,articles, blogs etc. I have even seen it on this forum quite a bit.intrapersona

    Of course, "seeing it on this forum" is not much of a recommendation, really. Some people here go on at considerable length about the imposition on beings that don't exist yet of conceiving them and bringing them to birth. without their consent. How nonexistent beings can give consent is beyond me.

    Tbh all i wanna do is fuck bitches get money... forever...intrapersona

    I suppose you could aim a bit higher, but if that's all you want to do, you still have to do it in the limited time you have here. So you had better get busy and start fucking those bitches before time runs out. Where does money figure in there?
  • Bitter Crank
    4.1k
    So, if it doesn't last... "forever"...why do good things versus atrocious things? Shouldn't I just do what catches my fancy? How do you predicate this idea that I should do useful things?Noble Dust

    Is your judgement as to whether it is better to do atrocious things or good things affected by whether you have 1 day or an infinity of days to do them? I wouldn't think the time remaining on the clock would make any difference.

    What is the wellspring of atrocities and beneficences? Isn't it whether your mind is driven by cruelty or love? Bitterness vs. sweetness? Resentment or acceptance?

    I suppose you will do whatever catches your fancy at least some of the time. So will I. We do useful things, don't we, in order to obtain the results of utility, and because we have decided (for some odd reason) that useful things are better than things without any use whatsoever?

    Mostly our choices of actions are predicated on the short run--sometimes the next 15 minutes. Once in a great while we plan to act for the intermediate future (say, 25-50 years). We all find it pretty difficult to think about a longer range future, like a century. Are you making any plans for late August, 2117? Probably not.
  • Bitter Crank
    4.1k
    I know I don't want to live forever because that would be a drag, but i feel instinctively deep down in my unconscious like i want to live forever.intrapersona

    I also think living forever would be a drag - a great big monumental fucking drag. It would be hell itself.

    But... do you have so much access to your unconscious mind that you know it (your unconscious) wants to go on forever?

    And even if your unconscious mind wants to live forever, who is running the show -- you or your unconscious?
  • intrapersona
    530
    Seems purely arbitrary. I actually agreed with everything you said in your OP other than this statement; the plague of posting on a philosophy forum: we focus on the negative. So, props on your OP, but...you said "the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence", I asked how/why you know that: you said: "because you don't have to live forever in order for you to appreciate beauty". So, basically this sounds like...some kind of fallacy, I'm too rusty on all of them to call it out. But, the simple point I wanted to make was: You made no argument as to why "the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence."Noble Dust

    Matters of fact are not fallacious unless you make them. If the appreciation of beauty does depend on eternal existence then that would be a fallacy because RIGHT NOW I am a mortal being and also RIGHT NOW I am appreciating beauty. Perhaps you were thinking of circular reasoning, begging the question, but it isn't.

    This does not mean to say that appreciation of beauty can not depend on eternal existence, its just that if it does i know nothing about it because right now I am stuck in some kind of finitude called human existence.
  • intrapersona
    530
    Some people here go on at considerable length about the imposition on beings that don't exist yet of conceiving them and bringing them to birth. without their consentBitter Crank

    What does this have to do with the OP, or was this a dig at my other thread on people's desires/wishes continuing on after they die? Because in the OP I didnt posit any beings that don't exist...
  • intrapersona
    530
    Is your judgement as to whether it is better to do atrocious things or good things affected by whether you have 1 day or an infinity of days to do them? I wouldn't think the time remaining on the clock would make any difference.Bitter Crank

    Oh really? So is hurting someone for one second the same as hurting someone for 302039493904005930495450694059604596 years? assuming they could live that long to feel that excruciating pain.

    My point is... TIME MATTERS!
  • Bitter Crank
    4.1k
    I didn't say you did, but others have. Which is fine, more posts to them. No, it wasn't a dig at your post on desires continuing after death.

    Now that you mention it, I'll have to come up with a really good dig for you.
  • intrapersona
    530
    What is the wellspring of atrocities and beneficences? Isn't it whether your mind is driven by cruelty or love? Bitterness vs. sweetness? Resentment or acceptance?

    I suppose you will do whatever catches your fancy at least some of the time. So will I. We do useful things, don't we, in order to obtain the results of utility, and because we have decided (for some odd reason) that useful things are better than things without any use whatsoever?
    Bitter Crank

    So are you saying that love,sweetness,acceptance is useful in the sense of utility? I wouldn't disagree about that. Society functions on those sort of principles so that we all get along and don't fuck each other over. But predicating it as a reason to exist? Maaaan, that's a whole different ballgame...

    Like I am sure you know, the universe isn't implicitly good or bad. Therefore it makes no difference how you act in your life,that is "objectively". It only matters in how it improves you life in the direction you want it to. For a psychopath, hurting others improves their life so don't assume that kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity are the things that I had better do before i die. Why? well attack this argument coming up in the next paragraph:

    It makes no difference if I just sit in my bed for the next 20 years than if I spent it helping people, being kind, loving and creative? Why? Because everyone dies in the end and the experiences are lost forever, everything is meaningless so there is no point guiding anything in any direction. We might as well just die right now. (Obviously there is a flaw in what I just said but you should be the smart one to pick it out, because I can't).
  • Bitter Crank
    4.1k
    by some standards, (like JC's) a man who hates his brother is already a murderer, so by that measure, whether you wish to hurt someone for a short period of time or an eternity doesn't make much difference.

    But you don't have an eternity. Unless you are an unlimited being living, sadly, in a limited world.
  • intrapersona
    530
    by some standards, (like JC's) a man who hates his brother is already a murderer, so by that measure, whether you wish to hurt someone for a short period of time or an eternity doesn't make much difference.Bitter Crank

    Yes it does, it makes ALL the difference. Is hurting someone for one second the same as hurting someone for 302039493904005930495450694059604596 years? Absolutely not!

    If this wasn't the case then people would prefer to stay in hospital for months on end with multiple broken bones than just one... The amount of time you feel the pain for is relevant to how bad the experience is... Man o man, how on earth can you not even see that lol?
  • John Days
    146
    Tbh all i wanna do is fuck bitches get money... forever...
    2 hours ago ReplyShare
    intrapersona

    You want to be part of the rat race, forever? If there is a hell, I could imagine that being it.
  • Bitter Crank
    4.1k
    predicating it [love,sweetness,acceptance ] as a reason to exist? Maaaan, that's a whole different ballgame...intrapersona

    Right. Love, sweetness, acceptance, and all that good stuff are not a reason to exist. They are a way to exist.

    Like I am sure you know, the universe isn't implicitly good or bad.intrapersona

    Yes. I have often said the universe has no particular meaning, and it doesn't provide us with meaning as one of it's custom services.

    Therefore it makes no difference how you act in your life,that is "objectively". It only matters in how it improves you life in the direction you want it to. For a psychopath, hurting others improves their life so don't assume that kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity are the things that I had better do before i die.intrapersona

    Just because the universe can get away with not having any meaning doesn't therefore result in our having no meaning. The universe doesn't need any meaning to do its thing. We do. We are meaning makers, meaning traders, meaning dependent beings.

    Hurting others does not improve the lives of psychopaths. Where did you get the idea that psychopaths live to hurt others? Psychopaths aren't demons, they are people with an inability to feel guilt and be guided by fear of punishment. What would improve their (often unhappy) lives is to have normal responsiveness to feelings.

    so don't assume that kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity are the things that I had better do before i die.intrapersona

    Is what's good for a psychopath is good for you? Why the hell shouldn't I assume that kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity are the things that you should do before you die? Just guessing, but you probably do these things already, when the opportunity (like, for bravery and mercy) present themselves.

    ... everything is meaningless so there is no point guiding anything in any direction. We might as well just die right now. (Obviously there is a flaw in what I just saidintrapersona

    There is a flaw. The universe may be meaningless, but you aren't meaningless, and your human environment isn't meaningless. Yes, you could go to bed and stay there until you die, which would be an act of self-destructive meaning.

    As far as your experiences (your existence) disappearing when you die, that would only be so if everyone who had every had any contact with you in any way, shape, manner or form ALSO DIED when you died. Everyone who had read your posts here, for instance, would have to die with you. The web site would have to disappear too, so nobody else could read anything you said, in the future.

    IF we all go together when we go, every Hottentot and every Eskimo, THEN your experiences will disappear FOREVER, because it is the human narrative that carries forward our contributions after we die.
  • Bitter Crank
    4.1k
    how on earth can you not even see thatintrapersona

    Of course I can see that. I am arguing against your view that if you don't live forever, then your life doesn't have any meaning. Or as you say, it would be a "waste of your time". Now there's something to snort over (lol).
  • Bitter Crank
    4.1k
    It's almost 2:00 a.m. Time for us old folks to hit the hay.
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