Given that you're prone to exaggeration, I'll take that with a pinch of salt.

Given that you're prone to exaggeration... — Sapientia

Oh, come on, give the guy a break.

I'm probably one of the best educated people on the planet — Agustino

On second thoughts... :D

Some of those people earning 80K/year struggle because of excessive job stress (compared to their earnings), lack of time for family or themselves, increasing job associated costs (rent/car/clothes/food, etc.) and lack of overarching meaning. They are struggling - whereas some people who earn 20K/year don't stress so much at their work, and have a lot more free time, even though, their smaller income doesn't give them as many possibilities — Agustino

If this is all you mean, I don't really disagree, but conflating financial struggles in this context with general stress and unhappiness seems a bit awkward.

Where can I make a donation to those earning £80,000 or more who struggle to make ends meet? Anyone know of any such charities? Agustino's comments have been tugging on my heart strings. I have seen the error of my ways, and I no longer think that these poor souls should be horribly punished by having to pay more tax than me. In fact, they should be exempt from tax altogether rather than be forced to give up their luxurious lifestyle. Perish the thought of living like those little people with their common possessions and reliance on public service!

Where can I make a donation to those earning £80,000 or more who struggle to make ends meet? Anyone know of any such charities? Agustino's comments have been pulling on my heart strings. — Sapientia

It would actually be better if you educate them, rather than donate. That way you'll teach them something, and they'll pay you ;) :D

Well, unlike yourself, I'm probably not one of the best educated people on the planet, but I'm sure I could teach them a thing or two in the hope of removing their head from their arse and putting things into perspective.

I chose not to venture down the legal profession because I see no glory in this Republic of yours or any country that values profit over human life. — TimeLine

I'm prone to irony. Regardless, I don't believe being a practicing lawyer requires appreciation of the glory of God's favorite country, these United States. Perhaps you should have become one after all.

For me, it has always been a dream of mine to study the classics, ancient history and languages, but the utility of a degree is to enable the prospect of working in the field you desire. Not sure what compelled you to become a lawyer. :-$ — TimeLine

I've always been fond of the classics and ancient history as well, and do what reading on them that I can. When it comes to ancient languages, I'm a fan of Latin. That might be due in part to my Catholic youth. But my knowledge of it is haphazard. It's no longer necessary to recite the Credo or Confiteor, and lawyer-Latin won't take you far at all. As to why I became a lawyer, I had no particular vocation. Continuing in the Academy, or going into journalism or the law were the options I presented to myself, and I chose the law.

Well, unlike yourself, I'm probably not one of the best educated people on the planet, but I'm sure I could teach them a thing or two in the hope of removing their head from their arse and putting things into perspective. — Sapientia

I referred to "best educated" in terms of grades and university. If you read that whole paragraph, instead of tidbits as Baden is used to misquote, you'd realise that the point was that the best education in the world (in terms of grades/university) doesn't mean much. The point was you still have little to no practical skills after that. That's why I have little respect for what is considered education in today's age. The quality of universities has decreased tremendously from how things stood in the past.

The uneducated often get ahead of the very best educated for precisely this reason - they have better practical skills.

That's why I have little respect for what is considered education in today's age. The quality of universities has decreased tremendously from how things stood in the past. — Agustino

See, told ya you're a reactionary! ;)

See, told ya you're a reactionary! ;) — Sapientia

>:O Yes, but consider what I say. It is true on this point.

But there are people who're making that income who are struggling. — Agustino

People struggling on $80,000 ($1500+ a week, $38+ an hour, assuming a 40 hour week) usually have difficulty making ends meet because they are upgrading their standards of living above their financial capacity. This is true at many income levels, and is true for many people.

Some people save money even on low incomes (except if they have children to support) and if they can preserve saving habits as their incomes rise, they can accumulate enough cash to build deep cushions against misfortune or have enough money to invest in property or retirement funds. Property in Ireland took a dive, as it did in many places a decade ago, and if you had cash at that point, one could buy houses for rental purposes on the cheap.

When I started working in 1971, I earned about $390 a month--working for a Catholic college. $90 went to rent an efficiency near the college, I had a small loan to repay, and then the usual expenses. I managed to save by living frugally, which I more or less did from then on out. However, I didn't have children, I didn't own a car (can't drive), and I always rented cheaply so I wasn't tied into housing costs that couldn't be reduced on short notice. As a result, I was never close to being broke (by my standards, anyway). As my income increased, I was cautious about improving living standards, and was always prepared to cut costs abruptly when adverse circumstances came along.

What one can't do is save money on any income while regularly upgrading one's quality of life to match the larger paycheck. For instance, a bump in wages may lead someone to begin buying lunch every day, plus expensive coffees, instead of bringing one's lunch and drinking the office coffee. One can spend $5000 a year (or more) doing that. Substantially uppgrading housing as one's income rises sounds the death knell of savings. So does having several children, even if both parents are working and being somewhat thrifty, especially in a high cost area.

When I started working in 1971, I earned about $390 a month--working for a Catholic college. $90 went to rent an efficiency near the college, I had a small loan to repay, and then the usual expenses. I managed to save by living frugally, which I more or less did from then on out. However, I didn't have children, I didn't own a car (can't drive), and I always rented cheaply so I wasn't tied into housing costs that couldn't be reduced on short notice. As a result, I was never close to being broke (by my standards, anyway). As my income increased, I was cautious about improving living standards, and was always prepared to cut costs abruptly when adverse circumstances came along. — Bitter Crank

Our spending habits are very similar :P Also interesting you don't drive. I hate driving, so I don't own a car either (but I do have a license and I did drive (not my car) when circumstances forced me in the past). But everyone around me thinks I'm nuts because of that. I don't see what's the big thing people see in driving. To me, a car is expensive, driving is quite stressful, not to mention that the consequences of mistakes can be quite serious - jail if you kill someone, or being severely injured in case of an accident. The benefits? Can't see that many, apart from easier transport, but common means of transport are much cheaper and not sufficiently slow to make getting a car worth the hassle.

What one can't do is save money on any income while regularly upgrading one's quality of life to match the larger paycheck. For instance, a bump in wages may lead someone to begin buying lunch every day, plus expensive coffees, instead of bringing one's lunch and drinking the office coffee. One can spend $5000 a year (or more) doing that. Substantially uppgrading housing as one's income rises sounds the death knell of savings. So does having several children, even if both parents are working and being somewhat thrifty, especially in a high cost area. — Bitter Crank

I agree with all this.

So see BC, you are a very smart guy financially, even though you pretend to be a Communist >:) :D

People struggling on $80,000 ($1500+ a week, $38+ an hour, assuming a 40 hour week) usually have difficulty making ends meet because they are upgrading their standards of living above their financial capacity. This is true at many income levels, and is true for many people. — Bitter Crank

Exactly. But those on £80,000 or more who are "struggling" in this way should suck it up or bloody well downgrade. The population of the UK is approximately 65 million, and those earning £80,000 or more number approximately 1.2 million, which, by my calculation, amounts to approximately 0.2% of the UK population. Those people can downgrade and still easily live a much more privileged and luxurious life than the vast majority. Those people still have way more options available to them which would still mean they end up much better off than most.

Just to afford my modest studio-sized, one-bedroom apartment (which was one of the cheapest I could find on the market in my area, and which I can just about afford), I have had to pay about 75% of my basic wages each month into a savings account set up for the next 6 months rent. (I have to pay 6-months-worth of rent in advance every 6 months because my salary means that I fail the letting agent's test of affordability). And that's not including other unavoidable bills like water, gas and electricity, and grocery shopping. I'd say I'm one of those "just about managing" people. But if I were to downgrade, my options would be considerably more limited and much less desirable: shared accommodation, move back to mum's place...

And, even though the state can help, for someone like me, there are obstacles preventing me from getting that help. I have little-to-no hope of getting a council place because I'm considered a low priority and because demand is too high and supply is too low, and the majority of private landlords refuse to accept anyone on housing benefit. So I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Which is just... great.

Oh, and that makes three of us with regards driving. Don't drive, won't drive. Don't think it's really worth it for me. Costly, would walk less, which would mean less exercise, and unnecessary in light of other available means of transportation.

Those people can downgrade and still easily live a much more privileged and luxurious life than the vast majority. — Sapientia

Nope, depending on the job in which they're making that income, it may not be possible to downgrade. But yes, probably many could downgrade. Though the family pressure gets most of them. People live beyond their means because they have a wife which wants more and more, because they have parents who push them, etc. Most give in to the pressure.

Just to afford my modest studio-sized, one-bedroom apartment (which was one of the cheapest I could find on the market in my area, and which I can just about afford), I have had to pay about 75% of my basic wages each month into a savings account set up for the next 6 months rent. (I have to pay 6-months-worth of rent in advance every 6 months because my salary means that I fail the letting agent's test of affordability). I'd say I'm one of those "just about managing" people. But if I were to downgrade, my options would be considerably more limited and much less desirable: shared accommodation, move back to mum's place... — Sapientia

Hmmm... you could learn something to do on the side to boost your income. Even if you get another £200/month extra, if all that goes into savings it wouldn't be bad - that way you can build a cushion in case something bad happens. I've always taken this approach, because you never know what can happen.

In addition, you can learn all sorts of useful skills by yourself after work or on weekends, that are valuable to others and could get you some income, and maybe even allow you to transition into another kind of job (and a higher paying one too!).

"Civil engineering is a professional engineering discipline that deals with the design, construction, and maintenance of the physical and naturally built environment, including works like roads, bridges, canals, dams, and buildings." — Heister Eggcart

Right, I suggest you compare the job description of a civil engineer with that of a construction worker. Totally different things. Site management/supervision is just one of the things a civil engineer can do. Designing structures or foundations is another for example.

Best educated? I thought your education was shite? — Heister Eggcart

Who told you it was shite?

So you went through with your "education" with the idea that you would never be taken advantage of or that you'd never have a shit boss? — Heister Eggcart

Nope, I went through my education with the idea that I'd actually emerge a fully capable engineer out of there.

This is easy for you to say over the internet. — Heister Eggcart

Why wouldn't I say it to your face?

The world always needs good doctors, persons who have the passion to treat and operate on those in need. Blame not the profession in itself, but those who fail to live up to the standard that is still being upheld by those commendable individuals who are doing a great job. — Heister Eggcart

No this isn't an a priori necessity. It could be that all parents send their kids to become doctors, and we end up having an overabundance of them. Then the world certainly doesn't need anymore.

As far as I'm concerned, my plan to become a licensed counselor and clinical therapist is perhaps the least selfish career path I can take. And getting a proper education to facilitate this, my career aspiration, is not egotistical, or bastardly, or whatever else. Don't lecture me about not being a good person merely because I don't want to work retail or be in the restaurant business. My character and expertise would be wasted flipping burgers. Period. — Heister Eggcart

Right, so more ego. Instead of saying something reasonable such as "I think I can help others better as a licensed counselor than as a McD's worker", you prefer to indulge in ego :-d

And, even though the state can help, for someone like me, there are obstacles preventing me from getting that help. I have little-to-no hope of getting a council place because I'm considered a low priority and because demand is too high and supply is too low, and the majority of private landlords refuse to accept anyone on housing benefit. So I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Which is just... great. — Sapientia

See that's the thing - there's only so much the state can do to help. That's always the case. The biggest help comes from learning new things which can be of use to others - which others value and are ready to pay for. It takes time, but you can get books to learn different practical trades/skills. Or find someone willing to teach you. Or find online material (either free or paid). For example, if you learn carpentry, then whenever someone from your network needs a floor, roof, etc. fixed, you go do it.

Like: http://www.getwoodworking.com/forums/postings.asp?th=88355

Right, I suggest you compare the job description of a civil engineer with that of a construction worker. Totally different things. Site management/supervision is just one of the things a civil engineer can do. Designing structures or foundations is another for example. — Agustino

If you think taking classes in a school room is going to teach you how to make a bridge perfectly in real life, I dunno what to tell you.

Who told you it was shite? — Agustino

So, your ranting and raving here and about useless an education is doesn't mean that education is shit?

Nope, I went through my education with the idea that I'd actually emerge a fully capable engineer out of there. — Agustino

Going through that education doesn't teach you everything you need to know. Again, I just keep reading silly expectations from you while you're trying to blame everything else but yourself for not being in the position that you'd like.

No this isn't an a priori necessity. It could be that all parents send their kids to become doctors, and we end up having an overabundance of them. Then the world certainly doesn't need anymore. — Agustino

You're not addressing my point. Retry.

Right, so more ego. Instead of saying something reasonable such as "I think I can help others better as a licensed counselor than as a McD's worker", you prefer to indulge in ego :-d — Agustino

What? Your quote is precisely my position. Re-read what I wrote if you couldn't figure that out.

If you think taking classes in a school room is going to teach you how to make a bridge perfectly in real life, I dunno what to tell you. — Heister Eggcart

Bridges are more complicated structures because of dynamic loading issues and (for some bridges) resonance. So no, I didn't expect to be a bridge master. But I did expect to be able to design and build a simple house from scratch for example.

So, your ranting and raving here and about useless an education is doesn't mean that education is shit? — Heister Eggcart

In my opinion yes, but that's not what most other people would say. Most other people in my place (my classmates) were very happy.

Again, I just keep reading silly expectations from you while you're trying to blame everything else but yourself for not being in the position that you'd like. — Heister Eggcart

I'm not blaming anything - as I said before, I am happy that I'm not working in the same industry I got my degree in atm.

You're not addressing my point. Retry. — Heister Eggcart

Weak

What? Your quote is precisely my position. Re-read what I wrote if you couldn't figure that out. — Heister Eggcart

My character and expertise would be wasted flipping burgers. Period. — Heister Eggcart

Nope, depending on the job in which they're making that income, it may not be possible to downgrade. — Agustino

Nothing you've said so far has really convinced me of that. I live in Essex, which is just outside of London. There is accommodation here which would be easily affordable to someone on such an income working in London, and commuting to London would also be both possible and affordable.

But yes, probably many could downgrade. — Agustino

Very many, and many of those who "can't" actually can, but are not willing.

Though the family pressure gets most of them. People live beyond their means because they have a wife which wants more and more, because they have parents who push them, etc. Most give in to the pressure. — Agustino

They should grow a backbone. Some people have real problems. "Honey, I simply must have that Chanel handbag. Buy me it! It's only £10,000.", "Okay, darling. If you insist".

Hmmm... you could learn something to do on the side to boost your income. Even if you get another £200/month extra, if all that goes into savings it wouldn't be bad - that way you can build a cushion in case something bad happens. I've always taken this approach, because you never know what can happen.

In addition, you can learn all sorts of useful skills by yourself after work or on weekends, that are valuable to others and could get you some income, and maybe even allow you to transition into another kind of job (and a higher paying one too!). — Agustino

I work full-time, and my free time is priceless. I'm not going to give up any more of it than I already do.

They should grow a back bone. Some people have real problems. "Honey, I simply must have that Chanel handbag. Buy me it! It's only £10,000.", "Okay, darling. If you insist". — Sapientia

>:O Yes, but those bitches are very dangerous. I hate women like that. That kind of a woman, is, as King Solomon would say, the guarantee of ruin. It's like having a hole in your wallet.

I work full-time, and my free time is priceless. I'm not going to give up any more of it than I already do. — Sapientia

Well, there you go, then you made a choice! It's good to be aware though of what it entails, and if that's your choice, then no one can say anything.

Bridges are more complicated structures because of dynamic loading issues and (for some bridges) resonance. So no, I didn't expect to be a bridge master. But I did expect to be able to design and build a simple house from scratch for example. — Agustino

How long of a degree?

In my opinion yes, but that's not what most other people would say. Most other people in my place (my classmates) were very happy. — Agustino

I don't see how this applies to what I said?

I'm not blaming anything - as I said before, I am happy that I'm not working in the same industry I got my degree in atm. — Agustino

Yes, you are! You've spent quite a lot of time bashing education and blaming it for not being able to meet your expectations.

Weak — Agustino

Where is this supposed ego of mine? I'm not seeing it.

Well, there you go, then you made a choice! It's good to be aware though of what it entails, and if that's your choice, then no one can say anything. — Agustino

Yes, but the government should do more to help people like me than people like Mr. Rich and his gold digger wife.

Yes, but the government should do more to help people like me than people like Mr. Rich and his gold digger wife. — Sapientia

Arrogance. You just need to work harder.

How long of a degree? — Heister Eggcart

3+1(.5) (MSc).

I don't see how this applies to what I said? — Heister Eggcart

You just misunderstood what I meant by my statement.

Yes, you are! You've spent quite a lot of time bashing education — Heister Eggcart

I'm not blaming it, I'm merely saying the truth about it. I'm not complaining that it sucks. I managed quite well without its help in the end.

Where is this supposed ego of mine? I'm not seeing it. — Heister Eggcart

Quote the right bit of text. The ego is in you saying your character would be wasted by working at McD's.

Yes, but the government should do more to help people like me than people like Mr. Rich and his gold digger wife. — Sapientia

How could the government possibly (and realistically) help you, in your opinion?

Arrogance. You just need to work harder. — Heister Eggcart

Well yes, I think if Sapientia wants more money, then he needs to work harder (more than fulltime). I certainly had weeks this past year when I worked 12hours+ day after day, including weekends.

Arrogance. You just need to work harder. — Heister Eggcart

The amount of dough earned depends on what other people are willing to pay. That in turn depends on how much perceived value you're adding to them. If "the rich" adds a lot of perceived value (or a little perceived value but at a very large scale), then of course he earns a lot. If "the poor" adds little perceived value at a very low scale, then yes - he'll earn very little.

And the government can't do anything about that.

If you want to discuss the MEANS of adding value, that's a different story. There's ethical means and unethical means, and that's true whether you're rich or poor. I'd say a hooker uses unethical means to add perceived value (and she's probably poor). A Wall-Street corporate raider uses unethical means to make a lot of money (and he's probably rich).