Lol trust you to play defense for your shitty country capitulating to a murderous warmonger and enabling him to murder more people.

The "real issue" is Sweden and Finland being enablers of a murderous Turkey, not your crappy dissimulating nonsense.

Sweden's existence has always been built on blood anyway, considering its arms export industry. This is nothing but a piece of that genocidal legacy.

Lol trust you to play defense for your shitty country capitulating to a murderous warmonger and enablimg him to mirder more people. — Streetlight

When you say something that is wrong, I'll correct you.

Nobody is amending anything. If you actually would read the memorandum (which you won't).
And I don't know how much Erdogan in mirdering his people.

At least some Turkish NATO officers that just had to happen to be in the NATO HQ when the coup happened, seeked political asylum in the West (from Erdogan's wrath). So yes, Turkey is a problematic member, that's true.

your shitty country — Streetlight

@ssu's shitty country is a great shitty country, full of smart shitty people.

If you actually would read the memorandum (which you won't). — ssu

Where do you think I summarized the points from? And of course the reference to changing laws is (6):

Further to this, Finland refers to several recent amendments of its Criminal Code by which new acts have been enacted as punishable terrorist crimes. The latest amendments entered into force on 1 January 2022, by which the scope of participation in the activity of a terrorist group has been widened. At the same time, public incitement related to terrorist offenses was criminalised as a separate offense. Sweden confirms that a new, tougher, Terrorist Offenses Act enters into force on 1 July, and that the government is preparing further tightening of counter-terrorism legislation.

To say nothing of the fact that this is but one of the few issues I mentioned, the worst being the Finnish and Swedish selling arms to a proven killer.

I think the 1st of January 2022 happened quite before there was even serious talk about Finnish NATO membership.

And btw, when asked before (if it was OK for Turkey), Erdogan gave a green light without any conditions. Only later he noticed the chance to milk things. I think this is typical to both NATO and EU membership talks (as is the case of North Macedonia and it's EU talks). And of course, there's a long road still for our shitty country to be part of the evil-NATO. Likely in the end of this year?

But it's good that we are actually now talking about the actual memorandum.

Oh, right, so Finland just promises to enforce its laws in the service of Erdogan's purposes? Yeah, that makes it so much better :roll:

And it's sooo much better that you brought up the totally irrelevant fact that Erdogan didn't notice at first but now does. Wow. Stunning and brave. I'm sure all the people Erdogan will murder with the weapons provided by Sweden and Finland will die better knowing that.

Oh, right, so Finland just promises to enforce its laws in the service of Erdogan's purposes? Yeah, that makes it so much better — Streetlight

That's what it says.

Erdogan was milking the moment, and NATO actually also wants the two shitty countries to join it. So this vague memorandum he then got.

And it's sooo much better that you brought up the totally irrelevant fact that Erdogan didn't notice at first but now does. Wow. Stunning and brave. I'm sure all the people Erdogan will murder with the weapons provided by Sweden and Finland will die better knowing that. — Streetlight

Turkish media has proclaimed it to be a victory for Turkey and that's what Erdogan wanted. And how it is represented in the Turkish media is the important thing here.

I mean, who actually reads the actual memorandums? Just look at the Trump peace deal with the Taleban: to call it a peace agreement when the other side (the Taleban, or the Emirate of Afghanistan) can continue it's war against the Afghan republic isn't in my view a peace agreement. But that's what it was referred to, a peace deal.

Another issue. How is NATO changing because of the war in Ukraine?

More readiness:

Nato’s secretary general has said this week’s Madrid summit will agree the alliance’s most significant transformation for a generation, putting 300,000 troops at high readiness in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

Jens Stoltenberg said the military alliance’s forces in the Baltic states and five other frontline countries would be increased “up to brigade levels” – doubled or trebled to between 3,000 and 5,000 troops.

That would amount to “the biggest overhaul of our collective defence and deterrence since the cold war,” Stoltenberg said before the meeting of the 30-country alliance, which runs from Tuesday to Thursday this week.

I think this speech from the new British Army Chief of Staff tells what the future of NATO is going to look like. Very much like the one during the Cold War.

The "1937 Moment" and emphasis on "mobilization":

Good luck shooting down Russia's nuclear weapons with more troops on the border because a NATO / Russia hot war isn't going to stay conventional for very long. Seems like a bunch of meaningless posturing tbh.

And how it is represented in the Turkish media is the important thing here. — ssu

What are you even talking about. The fact that Sweden and Finland are enabling a piece of shit country to ramp up their war machine to murder more people is the most important thing here. But yeah, you go on and tell me about Turkish media. The correct takeaway is exactly the one I began with: Fuck Sweden, Fuck Finland. Especially fuck them since Turkey has been sabre rattling at Greece with increasing intensity for the last few months now.

The rational reply would be deterrence, to have the capability of defending your country from an attack from this threat. And then continue to be at peace, because your deterrence keeps that someone from attacking you.

I guess the country with largest nuclear arsenal in the World can pretty much do that. — ssu

You seem to think it isn't trying to do that?

It certainly hasn't worked until February this year. Make no mistake, I have no doubt that the West will win this. Hatred and contempt are stronger than justice, stronger than goodwill.

Did you know that if you maintain a steady level of hatred and bitterness for long enough, political change will eventually just spontaneously occur? You're almost there, soldier.

In Kherson, a life at Russian time

The southern Ukrainian city fell quickly and without a fight to the Russians. Moscow accelerates the Russification of the region, while resistance is getting organized.

By Florence Aubenas (Le Monde special correspondent, from Kiev, Odessa and Mykolaiv)
29 June 2022

She found the letter in the kitchen, next to a plate of pancakes, in their apartment on the fifth floor of a quiet building. “Svieta, my daughter. Eat the pancakes, they are very good with cheese. I'm sick of the pain, I can't take it anymore. Goodbye. Your father." The father could no longer find anything to treat himself, so he jumped out of the window.

"Here, the lack of medicine kills more people than weapons ," reports a doctor from Tropin Hospital in Kherson, southern Ukraine, over the phone. The first big city conquered, a few days after the Russian invasion, Kherson does not let its particular situation known easily. From the outside, it seems almost intact, a seaside resort and port between two seas – the Black and that of Azov – a postcard beauty. Here, there was no massive destruction like in Mariupol or mass graves discovered like in Bucha.

Yet Kherson has been living under the occupation of Moscow for four months. Nothing arrives there from Ukraine anymore, neither food nor pensions. The roads are blocked, without even a humanitarian corridor: the only access that remains is through Crimea, the neighboring peninsula, already annexed by Moscow in 2014. Cut off from the world, the city of Kherson, like the oblast of the same name, has gone missing: the only independent testimonies come from refugees or residents contacted by telephone.

“We are here forever, Kyiv has let you down”, hammer the occupants, who have just completed a third line of defense. However, for the first time, on June 22, the official Russian agency TASS acknowledged that a car bomb attack had targeted a pro-Russian collaborator. Several prior actions had been kept under silence. Behind closed doors in the conquered region, another battle has just begun.

"The Russians had prepared their invasion, not only militarily, but with hidden agents at the heart of Ukrainian power" -- Oleg Dunda, Ukrainian MP

The story of Kherson, its capture and occupation begins with a mystery: how could the city have fallen without a fight – or almost – when the resistance elsewhere in Ukraine has stunned the world? "I would really like to know, like all citizens", says Iryna Verechchuk, Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister in charge of the occupied territories in Kiev. She remembers the early days of the invasion, when the national military committee wondered: why aren't the bridges blowing up? Why aren't our troops fighting on the border? These were the orders in case of aggression. Treason ? The word goes around, of course.

“If there has been sabotage, we will know, an investigation is underway , ” continues the Deputy Prime Minister. For his part, the deputy Oleg Dunda, member of the presidential party, recognizes that certain risks may have been badly assessed. "The Russians had prepared their invasion, not only militarily, but with hidden agents at the heart of Ukrainian power, " he explains. It is to the point where the American services did not share certain information, for fear that it may land in Moscow. »

In Kherson, in any case, on February 24, “soldiers, policemen, customs officers, all had evaporated” , remembers Dmytro Paraschinets, adviser to the region. A military leader ends up being contacted. On the phone, he answers "to be already very far away" . The only one to stand up: the territorial defense, a hundred civilians gathered in haste four days earlier. No weapons were issued to them. More than sixty died in combat. In the street, two strangers throw themselves with their bare hands against Russian tanks, an image of pure despair that still haunts Dmytro Paraschinets, now a refugee in Kyiv.

Vladimir Putin's strategy seemed to be working: the way was clear to advance to Odessa, 200 kilometers away along the Black Sea shore.

In fact, the columns were blocked halfway by fierce fighting around Mykolaiv, a strategic port. Fallback to Kherson. A resident remembers: “The Russian soldiers arrived at Victory Square, weapons in hand, and began to rob the supermarket." The occupation has just begun. It was the first week of March.

But this oblast does not resemble neighboring Crimea, where Moscow enjoyed strong enough support to integrate it into the Russian Federation via a referendum – imposed by the Kremlin – in 2014. Here, the pro-Russian parties never exceeded 20% of the votes.

So, every day, at noon, a ritual of insane courage began: hundreds of civilians with their faces uncovered demonstrate behind their national flag. "At the beginning, we were surprised: the Russians didn't touch anyone, " says one of them. "It gave us the audacity to continue." Moscow also distributes food donations in front of the station, buckwheat and tin cans, in front of Russian TV cameras. “They wanted to show themselves as good people,” says a businesswoman. Any other help is prohibited.

“They want the Dombas veterans, they want revenge.” -- the father of a veteran

At that same time, the first arrests began. Names of targeted people, addresses, functions, everything was recorded on lists "established for the most part before the invasion", explains MP Oleg Dunda. High in those lists figured the Ukrainian veterans of Donbass, who have been fighting against the separatists supported by Moscow since 2014. "They want the veterans, they want revenge, down to the last one," says the father of one of them. Arrested mid-March, his son never reappeared. Then came the people of influence, local authorities, journalists, neighborhood committees, bosses or demonstrators.

More than six hundred civilians have gone missing. Those who survived describe the same scenes: detention in cellars, stripping, beatings, torture with electricity, mock executions.

An elected official says that after three weeks he was offered to be released if he shoots two videos, one for the local population, the other for the Russians. “I had to say that I had not been arrested, but that I was responding to a medical examination. Then, I had to call to collaborate. The version for Moscow included one more sentence, only one: "I condemn the Nazism of Ukraine." Liberating the country from "fascism" remains the Kremlin's official justification for its invasion. Released, he found his house looted, even the electric kettle. He said he drank vodka all night. “At dawn, I understood that I would be their bait to arrest others, before being killed myself." He left the region clandestinely.

Social centers, nurseries, everything is closed. The last pro-Ukraine demonstration marched on April 27, a handful of people dispersed by the riot squad from Moscow. In the city, more than six hundred civilians are missing. Half the region has fled.

Historian and community activist in Odessa, Oleksander Babych has become a privileged confidant for those who remained in Kherson: his book The occupation of Odessa from 1941 to 1944 is a reference in Ukraine. Many consult it today to find out how to behave in the face of invaders. Babytch's response varies very little: “Prepare to be betrayed, including by those you think you know."

And indeed the floodgates opened, collaborators replaced one by one those who refused to work with the Russians in the oblast: the governor, the mayors or the head of the chamber of agriculture. "They display themselves without embarrassment," says a restaurateur in Kherson. In general, they were born under the Soviet Union, before independence in 1991, ambitious people who choose the strong neighbor."

If one of them were to symbolize the figure of the “traitor”, Volodymyr Saldo, 66, would surely fit the bill. Mayor of Kherson from 2002 to 2012, he had lost his mandate and was struggling with legal problems, untill the occupying forces offered him the post of governor on April 27.

At the beginning of June, two men got out of a 4×4 In front of a big farm near Kherson and introduced themselves to the farmer as businessmen. The farmer has never seen them, but the guns on their thighs made questions superfluous. The strangers offered to buy his crops, wheat, soybeans, vegetables, everything. Here, we are in the land of the black earth, one of the most fertile in the world, so rich, so oily that the Germans had the mad project of exporting it home by trainloads during the Second World War. The visitors offered a ridiculous price, three times less than the market. But the market no longer exists in the Kherson oblast: selling in Ukraine, or even more so internationally, has been impossible since the occupation.

Of course, the strangers wanted to pay in rubles: the new authorities now impose the Russian currency against the Ukrainian hryvnia. Thoughts were rushing in the farmer's head: “If I refuse to sell, they will rob me anyway." An idea occured to him: “What if I burned everything? No, not possible. They would take it as an offense." The other two made themseves clear: “It's either collaboration or the cellar". This farmer is one of the last who managed to flee the oblast.

Today, officers have settled in his property, they empty beers around his swimming pool. Russian soldiers have been encouraged for several weeks to bring their families and install them in unoccupied accommodation. “De-Ukrainization” is advancing like a steamroller: Russian will the school curricula be; Russian will be the only bank allowed to operate in Kherson, and it plans to open two hundred branches; Russian the businesses in the district; Russian the Internet, telephone and television networks; Russian the institutions; Russian any child born in the oblast after February 24, 2022.

Regularly announced, the organization of a referendum ratifying an attachment to Russia, as was the case in Crimea, is constantly postponed. Too risky: there is little or no chance that the result will be positive. So, at the microphone of the Novosti news agency, Governor Saldo pretends not to attach any importance to it: “The region already belongs to the great family of Russia." A procedure against him has been launched by the Prosecutor General of Ukraine: Saldo faces fifteen years in prison for treason.

In the morning, Kherson turns into a huge open-air market: smuggled Belarusian cigarettes, a few medicines sometimes, or a woman's bracelet placed on a headscarf. One sells what one needs to survive. This is the last place where the Ukrainian hryvnia is still current, though using it already constitutes an “act of rebellion”. There are hardly any more in circulation. Barter sets in, wages are paid in food for those who are still working. Ten thousand jobs have disappeared, especially in tourism. “We don't argue, but people don't talk about anything anymore, says a trader. We feel that something is being organized. But who is who? Who does what ?"

From noon, the streets empty, the inhabitants barricade themselves. Another life begins, as if separated from the first: the Russian hours. In the streets, one only comes across soldiers in bands, some wearing hoods. Or collaborators.

At the end of March, two of them had already been killed in attacks.

In recent days, the actions have intensified, more than 15, for those who are known in any case: Russian soldiers machine-gunned in a restaurant, car bombs against the director of the prison administration, the head of the bus station or Governor Saldo himself. These last three survived.

On a messaging service, a group has just been launched, called "the traitors' base". Seventeen thousand participants so far have denounced supposed collaborators, with their photos, from the most visible to the most pathetic, like this very young high school student, smeared with lipstick, who declares on Facebook her fondness for Russian soldiers. In Kiev, a military spokesman announced that a group of "guerrillas" had opened an internal front.

As a response, the former mayor of Kherson, Ihor Kulekaev, was arrested by occupation forces on Tuesday June 28. "Whoever was causing so much harm to the denazification process has finally been neutralized," said pro-Russian deputy governor Kirill Strimosov. Dismissed after the fall of the oblast, the ex-mayor had never left his city. He was at home when they came for him. He is now missing.

It begs the question what their motive is, though.

Russia is reacting to decades of NATO expansion and over a decade of their warnings about Ukraine not being heeded. There is no question in my mind that this general is aware of this wider context.

Yet, it is willfully left out, despite the fact this would put into perspective any real risk for NATO countries being invaded by Russia: virtually zero.

So what is the purpose of war rhetoric like this? Just a "never waste a good crisis"-moment for the Ministry of Defense to get some extra budget?

Surely there is no point in increasing the budget and sending loads of forces to Eastern Europe to counter a threat that, honestly, doesn't really exist.

Or are they going to bring the fight to the Russians and provoke a possible WW3, in line with his reference?

Vive la résistance

You seem to think it isn't trying to do that?

It certainly hasn't worked until February this year. — baker

Hasn't it? I don't think NATO has attacked Russia at any point. Even now, it's not putting it's troops in Ukraine or establishing no-fly-zones, which pretty well makes my point.

Russia is reacting to decades of NATO expansion and over a decade of their warnings about Ukraine not being heeded. There is no question in my mind that this general is aware of this wider context. — Tzeentch

And without NATO they would have likely attacked earlier. Some if not all Baltic states surely would either have Russian bases or have their frozen conflict and Russian "peacekeepers".

Aleksandr Dugin made it clear what is the goals of the Eurasian Russia in the early 2000's:

At one point in his textbook, Dugin confides that all arrangements with “the Eurasian bloc of the continental West,” headed by Germany, will be merely temporary and provisional in nature. “The maximum task [for the future],” he underscores, “is the ‘Finlandization’ of all of Europe.”

As for the former Soviet Union republics situated within Europe, all—with the single exception of Estonia—are to be absorbed by Eurasia-Russia. Belarus, Dugin pronounces, “should be seen as part of Russia.” In a similar vein, Moldova is assigned to what Dugin terms the “Russian South.” On Ukraine, Dugin stipulates that, with the exception of its three westernmost regions—Volhynia, Galicia, and Transcarpathia—Ukraine, like Belarus, constitutes an integral part of Russia-Eurasia.

(John B. Dunlop, 2004)

Actually, Gorbachev hoped to use Finlandization at the former Warsaw Pact countries, but that didn't work out as the Soviet Union collapsed.

And without NATO they would have likely attacked earlier. Some if not all Baltic states surely would either have Russian bases or have their frozen conflict and Russian "peacekeepers". — ssu

Now they have NATO bases and NATO peacekeepers. It should be pretty clear there's a political tug-of-war taking place in Eastern Europe, and the one-sided portrayal as the Russians as the baddies is just silly and unproductive unless one's goal is to steer towards large-scale conflict as fast as possible.

Also, what is wrong with "Finlandization"? Neutral buffer states have always been an ingredient, perhaps even a necessity, for peace. NATO's continued erosion of the buffer between NATO and Russia is what has produced our current predicament.

The use of the term seems to be contradictory in the parts you quoted.

I have no doubt that the West will win this. — baker

You have more confidence than said "West":

White House officials are losing confidence that Ukraine will ever be able to take back all of the land it has lost to Russia over the past four months of war, US officials told CNN, even with the heavier and more sophisticated weaponry the US and its allies plan to send. Advisers to President Joe Biden have begun debating internally how and whether Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky should shift his definition of a Ukrainian "victory" -- adjusting for the possibility that his country has shrunk irreversibly.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/28/politics/white-house-ukraine-projection/index.html

---

But this assumes that the Western metric of 'winning' is Ukraine keeping territory. It isn't, and never has been. The West does not give a shit about Ukraine. Nonetheless, the West is winning:

The United States will create a new permanent army headquarters in Poland and increase its long-term military presence across the length and breadth of Europe in response to threats from Russia, U.S. President Joe Biden said on Wednesday. New U.S. warships will go to Spain, fighter jet squadrons to Britain, ground troops to Romania, air defense units to Germany and Italy and a wide range of assets to the Baltics, Biden announced at a NATO summit in Madrid. ... Steps by formerly neutral states Finland and Sweden to enter the alliance would make NATO stronger and all its members more secure, he said. read more.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-says-us-changing-force-posture-europe-based-threat-2022-06-29/

...And it just so happens that the definition of Ukrainian victory ought to begin to 'shift' now. What a surprise. The Americans are getting what they want, so they're getting ready to jump ship and leave the Ukrainians to drop dead. As has always been the plan.

But this assumes that the Western metric of 'winning' is Ukraine keeping territory. It isn't, and never has been. The West does not give a shit about Ukraine. Nonetheless, the West is winning: — Streetlight

The United States will create a new permanent army headquarters in Poland and increase its long-term military presence across the length and breadth of Europe in response to threats from Russia, U.S. President Joe Biden said on Wednesday. New U.S. warships will go to Spain, fighter jet squadrons to Britain, ground troops to Romania, air defense units to Germany and Italy and a wide range of assets to the Baltics, Biden announced at a NATO summit in Madrid. ... Steps by formerly neutral states Finland and Sweden to enter the alliance would make NATO stronger and all its members more secure, he said. read more.

Why would it be considered a victory to have Europeans arm themselves against a Russia that would never attack them anyway. Those troops are going to be sitting on the border doing nothing, because Russia would never invade a NATO country, and likely it wouldn't have dreamed of ever invading Sweden or Finland either.

Moreover, the Europeans are going to be mostly absent in any future conflict between the US and China - certainly European land forces have no chance of ever being deployed that far from their borders.

If the goal was to secure America's "NATO-flank" in a possible future conflict with China, then surely it would have been more secure with a neutral Ukraine and normal relations between Russia and Europe.

Now the United States is driving the Russians towards the Chinese, so Chinese gets a massively important strategic ally, while the United States gets essentially nothing.

Those troops are going to be sitting on the border doing nothing, because Russia would never invade a NATO country, and likely it wouldn't have dreamed of ever invading Sweden or Finland either. — Tzeentch

The US has more than 750 military bases around the globe. Practically every one of them is a matter of people 'sitting around doing nothing'. This is not a bug, but a feature. It is capital sink. Or better, a capital cycling mechanism. It is how money moves from taxpayers to arms manufacturers and professional murders, before trickling back into shithole areas to minimally sustain local American regional development. And the US can always, always, always be counted on on finding some excuse to murder people in some region of the global, somewhere, for any reason whatsoever. The expansion of US Empire is simply the foundation of the American living standard.

If people are not being killed in mass numbers somewhere on the Earth with the support of American weapons and personnel, the American living standard drops.

This is your entry for the short story competition thread, right? Reads like science fiction to me.

So your bottomline is that the United States military-industrial complex is pushing for conflict in Eastern Europe to fill its own pockets?

Now they have NATO bases and NATO peacekeepers. — Tzeentch

Which they wanted to have.

The little obvious fact that the NATO troops and NATO are actually welcome.



What point in that this is a voluntary defense pact and the collective defense organization of Europe you do not understand?

Also, what is wrong with "Finlandization"? — Tzeentch

Your asking a Finn about that?

Your asking basically a question: "What is wrong in a foreign intelligence service basically being in your government with veto-power and then being active on nearly everything and intervening in everything?"

That intervention goes from who can be in the government and who can be the president, to things like what kind of movies can be shown or not, what books can be published and even what kind of video games can be played.

(Yes, the latter is true. The Russian embassy contacted the Finnish government about the early computer game "Raid over Moscow" and demanded it to be censored. As the administration didn't find any laws that this could be done (and rightfully thought this was nonsense), then communist Parliament members demanded the game taken out from stores and Soviet sympathizers in the media made a huge issue about the game and it's violence. It's the only video/computer game to make a political row in Finnish politics.



That was Finlandization.

That is how Soviet/Russian intelligence services operate. That is how Putin operates. Now you can compare to your country, if it's in the West, the UK or Australia and ask how many video games has the CIA tried to censor in your country? How many times the US has threatened with retaliatory actions if your country picks the wrong candidate in the elections for prime minister or president?

Finland joining the EU was actually a close call in the Parliament. Finland joining NATO wasn't. That really should tell you a lot.

So your bottomline is that the United States military-industrial complex is pushing for conflict in Eastern Europe to fill its own pockets? — Tzeentch

The United States is its military-industrial complex. 'It's' pockets are one and the same. Although shared with oil and finance and some others. Together they are all this entity called the 'United States' that pretends to be a country. And Eastern Europe just happens to be the current warzone de jour. It will pursue war anywhere, indifferently, as a result.

What point in that this is a voluntary defense pact and the collective defense organization of Europe you do not understand? — ssu

Voluntariness is not a factor in this. This isn't about good or bad, it's about geopolitics and it's very real consequences.

Cuba also voluntarily joined a USSR-led military alliance. It made no difference to the United States. Of course not. What happened when Vietnam threatened to voluntarily become communist? What happened when Iraq voluntarily threatened US oil and the dollar's position as the world's reserve currency?

Nations do things voluntarily all the time, and it has never been a reason for great powers not to interfere.

Your asking a Finn about that?

Your asking basically a question: "What is wrong in a foreign intelligence service basically being in your government with veto-power and then being active on nearly everything and intervening in everything?" — ssu

"Finlandization is the process by which one powerful country makes a smaller neighboring country refrain from opposing the former's foreign policy rules, while allowing it to keep its nominal independence and its own political system."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

You seem to be using a different definition of the term than what I found.

By that definition Europe is essentially Finlandized by the United States.

So again, what's the problem?

That is how Soviet/Russia intelligence services operate. Now you can compare to your country, if it's in the West, the UK or Australia and ask how many video games has the CIA tried to censor in your country? How many times the US has threatened with retaliatory actions if your country picks the wrong candidate in the elections for prime minister or president? — ssu

The United States has dragged its vassals into numerous wars of greed, and is now in the process of dragging Europe into a serious large-scale conflict in Ukraine.

I wish its meddling would limit itself to censoring videogames.

Anyway, I'm not making the point that I prefer one over the other. That is completely besides the point, and that's the point you're continually missing.

Your views on right and wrong don't influence at all the very real consequences of provocative policy. "We are the good guys, so we get to provoke" is obviously not something other nations care for. They will react.

You can't seem to decide whether you're an idealist or a realist. I'm arguing from a realist perspective. if there was any doubt about that.

The Untied States is its military-industrial complex. 'It's' pockets are one and the same. And Eastern Europe just happens to be the current warzone de jour. They will pursue it anywhere, indifferently. — Streetlight

Is this the same as the "United States foreign policy establishment", also referred to as "the blob"?

No idea, don't care.

Your views on right and wrong don't influence at all the very real consequences of provocative policy. "We are the good guys, so we get to provoke" is obviously not something other nations care for. They will react. — Tzeentch

Of course the bad guys may react, as we may react to their invasion of Ukraine. Assholes are not the only ones entitled to react, if you think about it for a second.

the US sending weapons to Ukraine to fight Russia invading Ukraine is immoral because it protracts war and increases casualties, right?
https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-allies-u-s-lend-lease-to-the-soviet-union-1941-1945/

Of course the bad guys may react, as we may react to their invasion of Ukraine. Assholes are not the only ones entitled to react, if you think about it for a second. — Olivier5

Except that is not what you are advocating.

You believe NATO should get to expand and interfere all it wants because they're "the good guys", and when another nation reacts you cry foul.

Whatever your position is, it's hopelessly confused.