Yes. The historical record is absolutely clear on this. Without legitimate-sounding excuses, invasions do not occur. Haven't done for decades. — Isaac

Seems like your blaming the rape victim for dressing too promiscuously. Oh yes, a decent outfit would have saved the beautiful young girl from being raped! And let's not talk about the rapist as that's irrelevant because everybody knows he's a rapist that lurks in the park.

So if you think a known mass murderer has a gun, it's OK to sell him another? After all, he's already got a gun, so no harm making a profit out of his murderous intent, yes? — Isaac

Let me get this right. Ukraine wanting to join NATO, and NATO saying something "OK...in the future" as they said, is equivalent of giving a gun to a known mass murderer?

So independent countries wanting to join a defense treaty to protect them from an attack is wrong?

And really, if someone says that one landmass and it's people are an inseparable part of their country and that is has been a huge historical injustice that they and the landmass has been separated from their historical and cultural home, I think there is really enough excuses to start a war with or without blaming the evil Americans.

Seems like your blaming the rape victim for dressing too promiscuously. — ssu

As if all that has happened in Ukraine to provoke Russia has been of Ukraine's free unfettered choice. Your analogy fails.

Ukraine wanting to join NATO, and NATO saying something "OK...in the future" — ssu

America orchestrated regime change, supported Neo-Nazi groups, trained anti-Russian elements, funded elements sympathetic to their cause. Now they are supplying intelligence, weapons, training, propaganda ...

...and you're likening it to Ukraine choosing a dress? Come on!

if someone says that one landmass and it's people are an inseparable part of their country and that is has been a huge historical injustice that they and the landmass has been separated from their historical and cultural home, I think there is really enough excuses to start a war with or without blaming the evil Americans. — ssu

So you keep saying, in blatant denial of the actual historical evidence which shows not one single invasion ever by the Russian Federation for which the excuse has been solely that it is an inseparable part of their landmass. Not one single example, ever.

America orchestrated regime change, — Isaac

There's a difference between supporting a regime change and orchestrating one. Sorry, but this revolution doesn't look like some "Operation Ajax". You don't have anything else to say on this, but the facts already know and discussed earlier.

And that revolution was in 2014. Several elections have gone, several administrations have gone and we have the new special military operation that started this February.

So you keep saying, — Isaac

So did Putin say. Period. End of story.

Just move on...

Never look at yourself, huh.

Never look at yourself, huh. — baker

I'm not there.

I'm not there. — Tate

You not here either.

:gasp:

LONDON, June 27 (Reuters) - Russian hacker group Killnet claimed responsibility on Monday for a DDOS cyber attack on Lithuania, saying it was in response to Vilnius's decision to block the transit of goods sanctioned by the European Union to the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad.

"The attack will continue until Lithuania lifts the blockade," a spokesperson for the Killnet group told Reuters. "We have demolished 1652 web resources. And that's just so far."

NATO needs a more “visible” presence in the Baltics to counter the threat Russia poses from Belarus, Lithuania’s President Gitanas Nausėda warned on Friday.

Speaking ahead of the summit, Nausėda told POLITICO that “very huge fundamental changes” in neighboring Belarus make Lithuania more vulnerable to a quick Russian attack — and necessitate a shift in the region’s security arrangements.

First Kallas of Estonia, now Nauséda of Lithuania worried about the situation.

Still on the level of "usual stuff happening in the Baltics with Russia" in my view.

perhaps you haven't listened to Apollodorus, who has promoted the idea that Russia has the most justification for Crimea. — ssu

Well, I think compared to other people's claims that Crimea belongs to NATO (or America), Russia's claim is far more justified, especially considering that Crimea was Russian for several centuries and only ended up being "Ukrainian" after Ukraine declared itself independent in 1992. :grin:

Read the news. 90% of the buildings in Sievierodonetsk have been destroyed by the Russians. — Tate

I think you should start by reading @Oliver's comments first. He said:

The current RF preferred tactic as seen in Ukraine is to seek the complete annihilation of the enemy's civilians and military. — Olivier5

In the case of the Russian aggression, one has the impression of an enterprise of total annihilation of the territory to be conquered, civilians and soldiers, men, buildings and things. — Olivier5

1. Destroying 90% of buildings in one town - or even in several towns - doesn't amount to the "complete and total annihilation of Ukraine's civilians and military" by any stretch of imagination. That's just Natonazi BS.

2. "Destroyed building" doesn't mean "building razed to the ground with the residents inside". The Russians do sometimes hit residential areas when these are close to the real target which is military facilities, industrial complexes, or troops passing through.

But the real bombing comes after all or most residents have been evacuated and there are only troops taking position in residential areas.

3. Ukraine has a population of about 40m and a normal death rate of 14.4 per 1,000, i.e. 1.44%.

Map of European Countries by Death Rate

If the Russians have killed, say, 40,000 Ukrainians since Feb 24, that’s less than 7% of the total annual peace-time mortality and only 0.1% of the total population.

Plus, don't forget that the Ukrainians have the option to cease fire. Zelensky has nothing to achieve by carrying on and escalating - except perhaps to stay in power for as long as possible .....

Thank you for the apologism for the murder of civilians. Not that you had any moral standing here anyway.

You’re welcome. But I’m not "apologizing for the murder of civilians" AT ALL.

What I’m saying is that since the Russians are taking Crimea and the Donbas anyway, it would have made more sense (and saved more lives!) for Ukraine to accept Russia’s requests from the start.

Even Ukrainians, at least the thinking among them, realize that their war isn’t getting very far:

Remaining in positions smashed to pieces over many months just for the sake of staying there does not make sense," Serhiy Gaidai, governor of the wider region, said on Ukrainian television on Friday

If they know that, why do they do it?

My take is that Zelensky (1) hasn’t got a clue and (2) he’s being pushed by the Natonazis in Washington, London, and Warsaw to wage total jihad on Russia.

But at a rate of 300 to 500 military casualties a day, he isn’t going to last very long, is he?

In theory, he could retreat and start a guerrilla war from Poland or Finland but that can go seriously wrong.

The fact is that Russia made some mistakes in the beginning but it hasn’t even mobilized yet. If Russia does (1) order general mobilization and (2) gets mad at Ukraine, the Ukrainians will be in deep trouble.

That’s why Zelensky’s childish attempts to threaten and intimidate Russia while hiding behind Biden might actually backfire. This isn't "apologizing". It's a fact-based logical observation.

Propaganda is always bad, whether it's anti-Russian or anti-NATO.

It's inflammatory, and brings large-scale conflict closer.

All here should realize that large-scale conflict in Ukraine will amount to a crisis greater than the Cuba Crisis, with an even greater risk of turning nuclear.

Not only that, but for the United States to become involved in a military conflict of that magnitude would give other flashpoints in the world a chance to present themselves while the United States is preoccupied. Think of places like the Middle-East, East Asia, India / Pakistan, etc.

If such an opportunity is taken by for example China to finally make its bid for Taiwan, the "world" has two choices:
1- Accept the end of American hegemony (with all the chaos that would bring)
2- World war

I'd urge anyone who would mindlessly parrot propaganda here - those who have chosen their "team" and will cheerlead it into its respective destructions - to carefully consider what it is exactly they're seeking and thus enabling.

My position has always been to stick to the facts. That's why I've been trying to look at things from a historical perspective. Military conflicts don't fall out of the sky. They have historical roots, often going back hundreds of years. So, history shouldn't be ignored.

But I agree that America isn’t in a brilliant position either. The fact that its empire is expanding (for now) shouldn’t be misread as a sign of strength. On the contrary, if you look beyond the propaganda, there are clear signs of decay.

The pharaonic pyramid is a central feature of the Great Seal of the United States and of dollar bills.

The Great Seal of The United States - Wikipedia

And “E pluribus unum” (“Out of many, one”) and "Novus ordo seclorum" ("New order of the ages") may refer to the Union of North American states, but it can also be extended to all the states in the world, depending on one's political and ideological agenda.

The idea came from Charles Thomson, a member of the American Philosophical Society. So, I for one think that it may be worth investigating America’s imperialist ambitions.

In any case, Europe is sucking up to America only because it fell under US military occupation and economic and financial domination after WW2. But there’s no way big countries like China, India, Brazil, and others will submit to US rule.

There is mounting international resistance to America’s global empire in all areas including in economy and finance.

The dollar's dominance is already eroding as central banks diversify into the Chinese yuan and smaller currencies.

Russia and China are developing a new global reserve currency with other BRICS nations (India, Brazil, South Africa), etc.

The bottom line is that America isn’t what it used to be in the 50’s. It has drastically dumbed down, just look at its current leaders! It’s still got the technology but it no longer has the intelligence to achieve much.

Meanwhile, other countries who don’t have the technology, have developed enough intelligence to devise and mount credible and effective resistance to US leaders and their pharaonic-jihadi ambitions.

Their military capabilities are fast improving. Even if Germany will never again become a military power, Russia, China, India, and others will.

It looks like payback time is going to come sooner rather than later. America may or may not be able to save itself, but it won’t be able to save its empire, that’s for sure .... :smile:

Is that supposed to be an argument? Or did you think I'd forgotten what your opinion was? — Isaac

Not going to repeat whatever previous comments already in the thread.
We'd start anew ever so often. :D

I'd urge anyone who would mindlessly parrot propaganda here - those who have chosen their "team" and will cheerlead it into its respective destructions - to carefully consider what it is exactly they're seeking and thus enabling. — Tzeentch

I'd urge the Putin and company, the attacker, to quit bombing :fire: and send the troops home now.
Done, no more of the ruinage and killing, civilian and other, refugees could return home and rebuild.

Those who present contempt and hatred as good things, as virtues, should not be surprised by the consequences of what they teach.

I'd urge the Putin and company, the attacker, to quit bombing :fire: and send the troops home now. — jorndoe

While the West continues to hate and despise Russia, as it has always done?

I'd urge the Putin and company, the attacker, to quit bombing :fire: and send the troops home now.
— jorndoe

While the West continues to hate and despise Russia, as it has always done? — baker

You mean, all this savage Russian bombing stems from the sorrow of not being loved by Western countries?

Hmm ?

Even if that were true (it isn't), do you think attacking bombing ruinage and killing civilian and other Ukraine/Ukrainians somehow helps...? :chin: Weird.

I'd urge the Putin and company, the attacker, to quit bombing :fire: and send the troops home now.
Done, no more of the ruinage and killing, civilian and other, refugees could return home and rebuild.

:D

Well, it's not like Putin has improved the :heart:.

What is the rational reply to someone hating and despising you (for decades) and preparing to attack you with military force?

I'd urge the Putin and company, the attacker, to quit bombing :fire: and send the troops home now.
Done, no more of the ruinage and killing, civilian and other, refugees could return home and rebuild. — jorndoe

Have you made any effort to understand the causes and the wider context of this conflict, and if so, on what basis do you dismiss all of it in favor of this one-sided narrative?

Do you have any academic sources that can back up your views?


If your goal here is not to come to some kind of deeper understanding of the conflict, then what is your purpose here? Cheerleading? Dumbing people down with oversimplified narratives so they're more eager for conflict?

What is the rational reply to someone hating and despising you (for decades) and preparing to attack you with military force? — baker

The rational reply would be deterrence, to have the capability of defending your country from an attack from this threat. And then continue to be at peace, because your deterrence keeps that someone from attacking you.

I guess the country with largest nuclear arsenal in the World can pretty much do that.

But hey, with all those "artificial" countries around you, which have territories that are culturally, historically and ethnically inseparable from your country, what else would be "rational", than annex those territories and make large scale invasions into these countries.

Guess we'll get some more scholarly views in here - something that's been terribly lacking so far.



00:00 | Ukraine War – How does it end - Professor John Mearsheimer!
01:12 | Is arming the Ukrainians a good thing?
02:30 | Who is responsible for the Ukraine war?
03:20 | Why didn't Russia stop NATO expansions?
04:04 | Could Trump presidency prevented the war?
05:58 | Make Ukraine neutral and end the war?
06:43 | Should Russia return conquered Ukrainian cities?

Sweden and Finland capitulated to a murderous war chief who has started more wars than Putin in recent memory because they are a bunch of unprincipled cowards. Having given in to Turkish blackmail, they have:

(1) Lifted their arms embargo on Turkey
(2) Agreed to support Turkey in their attempt to murder Kurds, while pulling their support for Kurds
(3) Agreed to amend their terrorism laws
(4) Agreed to share their intel
(5) Agreed to extradite those taking shelter from Erdogan's regime.

Fuck Sweden, fuck Finland.

What is the rational reply to someone hating and despising you (for decades) and preparing to attack you with military force? — baker

Bomb Ukrainian babies, of course. That will help a lot.

Australia will help the Kurds.

That's because Turkey is strategically too important to kick out of NATO, which is really what should've happened a decade ago.

Turkey has also been holding the rest of Europe hostage by threatening to release the floodgates of Middle-Eastern refugees that they are using for leverage. The worst part about it: it's working. Europe has no problem with murderous dictators, so long as it's murderous dictators who can threaten them with a bunch of non-white people.

Some Russian satellite agency has published the pictures and coordinates of the NATO summit venue in Madrid, the Pentagon, the White House, British government buildings in central London, the German Chancellery and Reichstag parliament building in Berlin, NATO headquarters in Brussels, and the French president's residence.

It's unclear who they were trying to orient; I suppose some tourists in Washington looking desperately for indications on where to find the White House... Well, now they know, thanks to Mr Dmitry Rogozin, head of Roscosmos. :razz:

https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-publishes-pentagon-coordinates-says-western-satellites-work-our-enemy-2022-06-28/

Agreed to amend their terrorism laws — Streetlight

At least Finland isn't changing it laws and likely isn't Sweden, so enough with your typical bullshit lies.

And as the objective seems for some just to make this thread into a place for personal ad hominem attacks or the similar, here's a link to the actual memorandum. So please, I would like that the people would read it first:

Trilateral Memorandum

What should be noted that the PKK is a terrorist organization by the EU, so this isn't at all different policy from before. And Finland has no "pending deportation or extradition requests of terror suspects".

At least Erdogan has made the establishment to speak of Türkiye, not Turkey anymore. Tells a little bit about his personality, actually. But otherwise, I think Turkey Türkiye's government will interpret the agreement as much as possible to Erdogan's favour.

Needless to say, the real issue is if deportations happen in the future, as now these are viewed under the media searchlight at least here and likely in Sweden.