Very nice! Need I say more. — Merkwurdichliebe

Dunno why, but after reading a few of your words you seem to be one of the more enlightened persons here. One gets to know them... "Jawohl mein Führer!" :lol:

I have no idea what we are debating. Remind me. — Tom Storm

I can't think of a good joke :vomit: . I think wayfarer was involved with Tom storm concerning idealism equating to nihilism. I like that debate. I have stupider opinions than the rest I assure you

Dunno why, but after reading a few of your words you seem to be one of the more enlightened persons here. One gets to know them... "Jawohl mein Führer!" :lol: — Hillary

Stop it. You are making me blush :blush: . But seriously, that is an amazing compliment, thank you.

. I have stupider opinions than the rest I assure you — Merkwurdichliebe

That's what I mean! :lol:

. I think wayfarer was involved with Tom storm concerning idealism equating to nihilism — Merkwurdichliebe

Ha! A great answer to Tom Storm! No doubt. You are enlightened... But Ill move on...

Anyone who likes dr. Strangelove is enlightened, in my humbly humble opinion! Ive seen it a considerable amount of time. "No fighting in the warroom!" And its impossible not to laugh about herr doctor.

But idealism vs. nihilism... :lol:

Nihilism requires its subordinate to either create himself by his own willpower or perish. Hence Nietzsche's emphasis on the will to power. — Merkwurdichliebe

What's nihilism's selling point? Is it just the bitter truth or does it give a kick that makes people addicted to it?

I can't think of a good joke — Merkwurdichliebe

If you're rich enough, you can make people do things for you...for a fee of course.

Just wanted to say that this is a great conversation you two are having. I don't have anything substantive to add, but I've really enjoyed reading along.

What's nihilism's selling point? — Agent Smith

Nothing!

Nothing! — Hillary

Business transaction (in the market)

Customer: I'll give you $0.00. Can I please have 0 apples?
Shopkeeper: :rage: Get the f**ck outta here a**hole!!

Business transaction (in a math department)

Customer (a mathematician): I'll give you $0.00. Can I please have 0 apples?
Shopkeeper (another mathematician): It's a deal!

It's not true that both nihilists and theists invent meaning, reason, or purpose. The transcendentalist is pointed at the why by revelation. The moral is communicated from heaven. The secular nihilist invents the moral: the Law. For virtual all situations, laws are made up. Including sentences like 7856 years in jail or three times the death penalty.

What's nihilism's selling point? Is it just the bitter truth or does it give a kick that makes people addicted to it? — Agent Smith

Well, at some level it might be said that everyone is an incipient nihilist - could it not the case that people seek and grab hold of belief systems like drowning people cling onto driftwood in the ocean? The fear of emptiness and consequential depression surely must make Islam or Scientology look as welcoming to some folk as a warm fire on a cold night. I have certainly met a lot of theists who have stated that they can't bear the thought that existence has no intrinsic meaning.

:lol:

Truly, dear Agent! If I would collect the things you typed, and bundled them, it would be a bestseller! I know it gets boring me saying this, but I cant stop it!

Thanks TC. Just thinking out aloud. I am interested in this subject myself.

But idealism vs. nihilism... :lol: — Hillary

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: . Some people just get it. Its an honor to meet you

@Tom Storm

Most interesting! — Ms. Marple

Kinda like an old friend I just met! He's just out from a hospital - fell off his bike down a cliff. He related to me how, as he was tumbling down like a rag doll, he tried to grasp with both his hands at anything - a rock, a branch, a bush, anything - to save himself. We all need something to anchor our ship too in this raging typhoon of a world; as they say any port in a storm.

What's nihilism's selling point? Is it just the bitter truth or does it give a kick that makes people addicted to it? — Agent Smith

Ok, here it is. Nihilism requires perspectivism in order to make sense of the world (so you can eat and shit). So its great contribution to history is the notion of perspectivism. In my opinion, perspectivism is the greatest tool the philosopher can ultilize. Ask me if you want an explanation of perspectivism

If you're rich enough, you can make people do things for you...for a fee of course. — Agent Smith

I'm only rich in cheesy sarcasm

could it not the case that people seek and grab hold of belief systems like drowning people cling onto driftwood in the ocean? — Tom Storm

‘To have faith is to trust yourself to the water. When you swim you don’t grab hold of the water, because if you do, you will sink and drown. Instead, you relax and float’ ~ Alan Watts.

There is ‘clinging to belief’ on the one hand, and there is ‘letting go, and letting God’ on the other. But this place usually only sees the former.

I'm only rich in cheesy sarcasm — Merkwurdichliebe

:snicker:

Ask me if you want an explanation of perspectivism — Merkwurdichliebe

I want an explanation on perspectivsim and do share how it relates to nihilism.

could it not the case that people seek and grab hold of belief systems like drowning people cling onto driftwood in the ocean — Tom Storm

In a sense. But the driftwood is meant to keep the Sea of Nihility from drowning you. Precisely because science can't offer any reason for existence the driftwood is necessary to stay alive. Now, you can collect all driftwood and construct a ship for fools with it, or you can construct a prison boat. I prefer a ship of fools with excursions in the depths of the silent sea.

I'm only rich in cheesy sarcasm — Merkwurdichliebe

Something is better than nothing!

Secularism may claim to be untied from religion, but I still find it hard to see how anything can be free from religious influence. To me, it would be like saying some movement is "free" from philosophical or philosophical consideration — Paulm12

I see what you mean. In fact, everyone has a philosophy about life and its various manifestations and aspects, even if one doesn't realize it or does not think about it explicitly. And everyone believes in something basic, even if this is not God. I use to say that non-religious scientists have science as their religion and in fact, they are more fanatic about it than leymen about their religion! :smile:

So, it all depends on how we use the term "religious" and "religion": loosely or strictly.
But since, as I undestand, your topic refers to the strict aspect, I don't think that the proposition "nothing is really secular" is valid. For one thing, it invalidates the term "secular" itself. (Which, in fact, leads to a circular or self-denied statement: I first define "secular" as something "not religious" and then I state that nothing is secular, i.e. there's no such thing as "secular" and by conseqence everything is religious! :smile:)

There is ‘clinging to belief’ on the one hand, and there is ‘letting go, and letting God’ on the other. — Wayfarer

I'm not saying you are wrong. But how does someone outside that world, like me, tell the difference between the two?

Precisely because science can't offer any reason for existence the driftwood is necessary to stay alive. — Hillary

I know you keep raising science but as an atheist I have limited interest in science. I don't look to it for anything except as a tool for solving certain types of problems. I am one of those vexed people who find science and maths dull.

‘To have faith is to trust yourself to the water. When you swim you don’t grab hold of the water, because if you do, you will sink and drown. Instead, you relax and float’ ~ Alan Watts. — Wayfarer

Shame that he couldn’t loosen his grip on the bottle.

Yeah I always thought that. Years ago when I drove a cab, I picked up this dude from a conference, who struck me as a cool Californian guy, and casually dropped Alan Watts’ name. ‘He died an alcoholic’, he said.

Conversation went nowhere after that.

Still, Watts was a perceptive philosopher, which is more than you can say for……never mind…..

As I have said several times, I encountered Watts decades ago and loved his roadshow of ideas. He considered himself an entertainer and many of us got our start in metaphysical religious thinking through him. Even today I'll listen to him on youtube - to actually hear his resonant voice is a buzz. The charisma leaps from my headphones. And he's often thought provoking.

Not significant enough.. — Possibility

I think Australians are moving inexorably in the direction of a 'monarchy-free zone.'
I hope Scotland becomes independent eventually, then gets rid of the monarchy and joins Europe again and Unites with every other country it can, including England but not as something as colonial and empire soiled as Great ( :rofl: ) Britain. I have never felt British in any way at all. British means nothing to me. I don't think many Australians still feel allegiance to something as outdated as the British
monarchy. Surely they see how such was rewarded in the inept and criminal way Churchhill used the Anzacs as fodder at Gallipoli

I know you keep raising science but as an atheist I have limited interest in science. I don't look to it for anything except as a tool for solving certain types of problems. I am one of those vexed people who find science and maths dull. — Tom Storm

That's exactly the reason I believe in gods. Because science is dull and boring and claims to know the truth. But it hasn't. Luckily. Whatever meaning and purpose we find, what's the difference with gods being there and not being there?