In making the argument that information is the relationship between cause and effect I am asserting that information is inherent in nature. — Harry Hindu
The concept of shape-shifting Information that I am proposing is complicated, not least, in that it applies to both Analog/Macro/Classical reality (known directly via senses), and Digital/Quantum/Post-postModern ideality (known indirectly via inference from measurements), plus to Hypothetical/Metaphysical/Speculations (into realms beyond our space-time world). So, do you think we can find a meeting-place somewhere in possibility-space?↪Gnomon
I can meet you part-way at least. — Wayfarer
That's exactly what I'm trying to do in the Enformationism thesis. It's a blend of old (Spiritualism) and modern (Materialism) and novel (Informationism) concepts. The Quantum pioneers also went through a period of groping for ways to interpret the weirdness of quantum phenomena. Some began to use metaphors from Hindu & Buddhist traditions, and others developed novel mathematical language (wave-function) to describe what they imagined as tiny particles of stuff.The same thing's happening here too - we're trying to get a handle on information (new) with the aid of substance (old). It's time we did something different in my humble opinion. How? I dunno! — Agent Smith
It is virtually impossible to cite anything in reality that does not convey information — Rocco Rosano
True. The wavefunction contains no knowable information. Instead, it statistically describes all possible paths a particle may "explore". But there is no actual (sensible) particle until a measurement (Latin mensura ; root mens- : "mind") by an Observer somehow causes the continuous non-local Wave to "collapse" (emerge) as a single localized Particle.Dear brother Gnomon, as interesting your thesis truly is, we still have to take into account that the wavefunction contains no information but a means for particles to explore. Information is not contained in the patterns connecting particles, but in the stuff describing them. — Hillary
It's my interpretation. Aristotle's "form" is what we now call "information" (a pattern that identifies a thing). Platonic "Form" is Potential, while Matter (hyle) is Actual stuff. (E = MC^2) Potential (energy) can be converted into Actual Matter (mass). :smile:I do not think this is Aristotle. Physical stuff is matter and form. — Jackson
I'm currently reading a book on Quantum Physics, Beyond Weird by Phillip Ball, — Gnomon
But there is no actual (sensible) particle until a measurement — Gnomon
Yes. But what did Ari mean by "form"? Obviously, something in addition to Matter (hyle). We can assume that Ari never heard of "Information Theory". And, he was trying to distinguish his notion of Real (concrete, physical) "Form" (morph) from Plato's Ideal (abstract, essential) "Form" (eidos). But we now know that Information can be both (see equivalence principle below). So, Ari's combination of Matter & Morph would today be called complex "Information". Ideas in a mind are abstract (form only), while objective things in the world are concrete (matter + form). (Disclaimer : this is not an official academic interpretation.)Okay. But for Aristotle matter only exists with form. — Jackson
I agree. But, you are using "information" in a specific sense, as is usual in most scientific & technical discussions. In that case, you are correct. But the point of my thesis is that Information is general & universal, hence a philosophical concept, similar to Plato's "Form". I try to make that distinction in the thesis by using a different spelling (EnFormAction ; the potential to enform).To re-iterate: Information has to specify or mean something. 'Generic' means, among other things, not having a specific definition. So if it means something, it can't be generic, and if it doesn't mean anything then it's not information. Ergo, I claim 'generic information' is a meaningless phrase. — Wayfarer
In that case, you are correct. But the point of my thesis is that Information is general & universal, hence a philosophical concept, similar to Plato's "Form". — Gnomon
The mass-energy-information equivalence principle :
Here we formulate a new principle of mass-energy-information equivalence proposing that a bit of information is not just physical, as already demonstrated, but it has a finite and quantifiable mass while it stores information. — Gnomon
the argument that information is the relationship between cause and effect — Harry Hindu
Isn't information just some material stuff we can use to inform each other? Something with no inherent material existence in nature? The surface of a black hole contains information of the stuff inside, the maximum quantity even, but what does that mean? — Hillary
Yes. Generic Information is meaningless, because it is general & abstract & timeless & potential, like Plato's "Form". It contains the statistical possibility to mean anything, but lacking specificity, it actually means nothing. It is completely random & chaotic (no pattern, pure noise). So, like the pixels on your computer screen, GI, when uniformly white or black, lacks pattern, hence is devoid of meaning (e.g. white noise). But if you begin to change from a uniform (111111) or random (01010101) pattern, to a variable (100101101010001) pattern, a meaningful image will begin to appear from the void. That uniform array of pixels has the potential, when intelligently activated, to draw a picture of anything.To re-iterate: Information has to specify or mean something. 'Generic' means, among other things, not having a specific definition. So if it means something, it can't be generic, and if it doesn't mean anything then it's not information. So I claim 'generic information' is a meaningless phrase. — Wayfarer
What information is contained in the wavefunction?
— Hillary
Statistical Information. We call — Gnomon
I don't think think structures and forms contain information. Entropy yes. A wavefunctions is just a collection of hidden variables with a specific form which is continuously changing shape. Collapsing, taking shape in potentials, It's shape influences the particle directly. There is no information contained in the sense that it refers to something else than the particle, like the information in a computer refers to things we define, giving it meaning. — Hillary
Information is anything that stands out from a background of infinity or nothing, but the ultimate paradox is that infinity is nothing. — ASmallTalentForWar
The idea that the ultimate answers to physical questions must either be infinity or nothing doesn't convey a satisfactory understanding to our minds, does it? — ASmallTalentForWar
I don't think think structures and forms contain information. Entropy yes. A wavefunctions is just a collection of hidden variables with a specific form which is continuously changing shape. Collapsing, taking shape in potentials, It's shape influences the particle directly. There is no information contained in the sense that it refers to something else than the particle, like the information in a computer refers to things we define, giving it meaning. — Hillary
A ‘bit’ of information in a computer system, as I described earlier, refers to the capacity or potential for an event in a specific system — Possibility
The difference that makes a difference. — Possibility
The information in a computer system, therefore, refers to an event — Possibility
as does a wavefunction — Possibility
Don’t be fooled by the rendered appearance of either. — Possibility
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