What say you?
↪180 Proof — 180 Proof

Ceramic psycho! Unholy...

, in 1543, the founder of Protestantism launched a rather anti-semitic treatise.
It's an aspect of what religious faith is, like "Unwavering Faith".

That's because of the western conception of god or the scientific religion ruling supreme. Richard Dawkins and the likes are revolting against gods because their incapacity to understand and by revolting they show their obedience to science, trying to get the respect of that of the genius physicist they always so aspired to be but lack the genius for. — Hillary

It has nothing to do with science.

(No) help is on its way! I'm on my own! — Agent Smith

Have you ever received help from other humans?

The points you raised reminds me of the maxim a theory that explains everything explains nothing. I dunno! — Agent Smith

More on God: I've heard God described as essentially good, and you'll hear Jews describe him as good but not benevolent too often. We have basically no grounds to lay judgment on God as humans as to God's actions however. Read Ecclesiastes - who is really better off the stillborn infant or the wealthy man who fathers many but is unable to enjoy it? It's all dust to dust.

Indeed. It has to do with the western god image.

Indeed. It has to do with the western god image. — Hillary

Please do not tell me what I believe.

Okay, but the gods can be just like people or animals. Who says there is one Super Omni Monster God?

Okay, but the gods can be just like people or animals. Who says there is one Super Omni Monster God? — Hillary

You keep ignoring my actual comments.

Why did Jews NOT lose their faith in a (benevolent) God? — Agent Smith

You are using rationality to address faith. Faith is belief despite rationality showing you otherwise. There are plenty of rational reasons not to believe in God prior to the Holocaust.

The real question then is, "What causes people to have faith?" Since its not about rationality, its about other things. I think if you ask a lot of people you'll find its community, purpose, morality, and believing in something bigger than yourself.

One could use rationality to address faith as gods offer a reason for bringing the universe into existence.

One could use rationality to address faith as gods offer a reason for bringing the universe into existence. — Hillary

That's a rationalization, not rationality. A rationalization is a plausible reason we invent to support a belief or desire, but is not necessarily rational. Rationality is not used with the intention to prove or disprove a belief, but see if it holds when placed against critical critique.

Have you ever received help from other humans? — universeness

Good question! Much appreciated.

Excellent point! I could not make sense of that which is, in a way, nonsense! How dumb of me!

However, I feel there's a connection between faith and intuition and we know the latter isn't exactly irrational, there seems to be a hidden logic that at the present moment remains unfathomable.

God moves in a mysterious way. — William Cowper

A get-out-of-jail card for God. Again, a theory that explains everything explains nothing, oui?

That's a rationalization, not rationality. A rationalization is a plausible reason we invent to support a belief or desire, but is not necessarily rational. — Philosophim

Agreed, but faith can be rational if the theology is coherent.

The reason for my belief is a different reason gods had to create the stuff of the universe. That reason can be rational if science offers no further solace. If the cosmology incorporates all eras of cosmic evolution, what causes are left if not physical? Appearance out of the blue seems more irrational than creation by gods. How can something appear out of nothing?

A get-out-of-jail card for God. Again, a theory that explains everything explains nothing, oui? — Agent Smith

That last sentence is just a contradiction. I don't know what you're talking about.

When you say "a get out of jail free" card you're already passing judgement. Humans have no idea.

Again, a theory that explains everything explains nothing, oui? — Agent Smith

A ToE has a deceiving name. It explains mechanisms at the fundaments only and it is wrongly thought that from this knowledge everything can be explained. The basic principles are know the.

Yeah, a rather silly aspect.

A ToE has a deceiving name. It explains mechanisms at the fundaments only and it is wrongly thought that from this knowledge everything can be explained. The basic principles are know the. — Hillary

:ok: Good to know.

That last sentence is just a contradiction. I don't know what you're talking about.

When you say "a get out of jail free" card you're already passing judgement. Humans have no idea. — Moses

You'd better do some reading then.

You ought to read Ecclesiastes; it'll challenge your own intuitive value judgments. Humans have no idea how the world ought to be or whose better off or how good or bad events often are because they can't see long term effects. You can't zoom out, we only see things from our limited perspective.

You ought to read Ecclesiastes; it'll challenge your own intuitive value judgments. Humans have no idea how the world ought to be or whose better off or how good or bad events often are because they can't see long term effects. You can't zoom out, we only see things from our limited perspective. — Moses

Thanks a million for the advice! Will get on it asap!

Yuval Noah Harari says so in his book Sapiens that what we tell ourselves is progress is actually a series of disasters for mother earth; we, he claims, are the global leaders when it comes to miscalculations. Limited perspective? Bullseye!

There are plenty of rational reasons not to believe in God prior to the Holocaust. — Philosophim

:up:

The real question then is, "What causes people to have faith?"

Developmentally, Humans acquired the habit of (make)believing long before, if they ever do, any competence at (critical, defeasible) reasoning. Surveys consistently show that about a third of folks are incorrigible fideists and another third expedient conformists to their familial faiths. "Cause?" False fears (which "the faithful" are socialized to communally self-medicate with ritualized false hopes).

:fire:

False fears (which "the faithful" are socialized to communally self-medicate with ritualized false hopes). — 180 Proof

Religion is a social practice regardless of the system or dogma.

Religion is a social practice regardless of the system or dogma — Jackson

Yeah, like e.g. patriarchal marriage, debt-peonage, and organized crime.

Why did Jews NOT lose their faith in a (benevolent) God? — Agent Smith

Did Jews ever believe in a benevolent God? Throughout their own religious stories and texts, God was always something to be feared and usually the source of their greatest misfortunes. From an early perspective, like in Job, God was understood to be the lord of good and evil. Evil generally synonymous with misfortune rather than malevolent intent. Of course, this was the pagan perspective as well as few people would attribute their fortune to any inherent or individual excellence on their own part, but to the favor of some deity and their misfortune to some anger or infraction they committed against some divine or demonic influence.

The idea that something as powerful as a God would care about any individual person's happiness does not really jibe with any stories about the gods or about the Hebrew God. However, we just know about the gods from stories and like Euripides pointed out a few thousand years ago:

"I think not of the gods, as having committed adultery, which is not right, nor as oppressed with chains: I have never thought this worthy, nor ever will believe that one lords it over the others. The god, who is indeed a god, needs nothing: These are the wretched stories of the bards."

With that in mind though, I'd have to say that a great number of Jewish people in the modern era were actually atheist and had been for generations and probably many of those that died in the Holocaust did not believe in God in any case before they went into the camps.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_on_Trial

Why did Jews NOT lose their faith in a (benevolent) God? — Agent Smith

There is an answer to this, but it's too politically incorrect to talk about it in public.

That is an interesting point of view. From a pagan, pre-Christian perspective, I doubt that anyone would have ever expected or asked if God was good.

What's interesting is that in THE ILIAD, the Gods are essentially audience members to the spectacle of the Trojan War that sometimes get involved in the action but are never really invested. The heroes in the war are more like their favorite sports stars or characters in the play - in fact, the attention of the gods mirrors the attention of the audience - either the reader of the epic or the listener.

That is another interesting answer to the "problem of evil" in a world that has a divine presence. There is evil in the world so that God (or the gods) won't get bored with the human race.

The idea that something as powerful as a God would care about any individual person's happiness does not really jibe with any stories about the gods or about the Hebrew God. — ASmallTalentForWar

I don't know about happiness (what exactly do we mean by that?), but God does care about the individual well-being of Moses which he demonstrates in Exodus among other prophets.

Also:

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? (Ezekiel 18:23)

God was understood to be the lord of good and evil. Evil generally synonymous with misfortune rather than malevolent intent. — ASmallTalentForWar

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