• Wittgenstein
    442
    Notion we need to challenge

    1. Equality of people before the law and in possession of civil rights

    People are not born equal. Majority of people ( including me ) don't have what it takes to be a great philosopher, a great artist, a great mathematician, great scientist or anyone in general who contributes to the cultural enrichment of your civilization. Instead of enforcing a system where everyone sees himself as equal to other people , the state should keep the natural hierarchy in place to maintain the highest standard of art, philosophy, science in society and let everyone who is capable prove his worth. Otherwise, mediocrity will be the rule. The elite class of society should enjoy greater rights and be allowed to get around the law as the culture is in greater need of them. A nation is defined and distinguished from others by its culture. So the value of an artist is considerably more than that of a soldier or any commoner for that matter

    What we need to advocate

    2. To maximize cultural progress (enrichment) , the existence of a slave class is neccessary

    Before AI takes blue collar jobs away from the people, we need a class of people who should not concern themselves with politics, science and philosophy. They should be trained to operate as mindless robotic cogs in the big industrial wheel. They need to be enslaved so the elite can have all the time to advance the frontier of knowledge and art. Once the AI revolution is successful, half of the world population will be rendered useless, so it's important to let them know that they don't deserve the same equal rights as the elite who are running the world. The downtrodden members of society should be grateful that they have not been euthanized forcibly for being a complete waste of space

    3. The elite artists should fashion the taste of art in society and the common people should not be able to dictate the direction of art to the artist. The commoners should be indoctrinated or slowly pushed to acquaint themselves with the elite taste until it becomes the fabric of the society as a whole. In this way, it's the role of the great artist to lift a nation to great cultural heights

    Disclaimer : I disagree wholeheartedly .....


  • universeness
    2.1k
    Before AI takes blue collar jobs away from the people, we need a class of people who should not concern themselves with politics, science and philosophy. They should be trained to operate as mindless robotic cogs in the big industrial wheel. They need to be enslaved so the elite can have all the time to advance the frontier of knowledge and art.Wittgenstein

    Aldus Huxley was around 6 when Nietzsche died in 1900.
    I wonder if Huxley read some of this stuff before writing Brave New World.
    Huxley was a pacifist and perhaps the dystopian nature of Brave New World was his warning against such ideas. Hopefully, the 5 social classes of humans, Alphas, Betas, Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons will never become a government-sanctioned and enforced reality.
    Economically, there is no doubt these classes exist in our society today.
    That has to be stopped.
    There have been many other such dystopian stories before and since.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.1k


    If we should want to have a charitable look at the argument, maybe we should let the man speak for himself, since he did happen to make this exact argument in the greek state which boils down to this:

    1. Life, suffering etc, can ultimately only be justified through art.
    2. Slavery is necessary to enable a few to focus on creating said art.

    "In order that there may be a broad, deep, and fruitful soil for the development of art, the enormous majority must, in the service of a minority be slavishly subjected to life’s struggle, to a greater degree
    than their own wants necessitate. At their cost, through the surplus of their labor, that
    privileged class is to be relieved from the struggle for existence, in order to create and to
    satisfy a new world of want."


    Since 1) is essentially a value-judgement one maybe could just say that one doesn't care about art or high culture, and the rest of the argument looses its potency.

    2) is more of a statement of fact that one could maybe discredit (or credit) on empirical grounds. Essentially he saying that 1) you need specialisation to be able to create good art 2) which requires that some are relieved from the daily struggle for existence 3) which in turn requires that a part of the population produces more/is forced to produce more than it needs for itself.

    Maybe this could be true in ancient times, like Greece, but certainly this isn't true anymore in fossil-fueled post-industrialised societies. Because of the amount of energy per capita we have access to, we essentially have all the energy slaves we want, Energy can be translated directly into work, which basically could free up almost everybody to produce art if we wanted to.

    A caveat to this story maybe is that going forward, huge amounts of energy is not necessarily garanteed since we kind of have to de-carbonize rather quickly and all (most, sorry nuclear) energy-dense sources of energy are carbon-based.
  • T Clark
    9.4k
    People are not born equal.Wittgenstein

    But they are equal. They are all endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. Among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. To secure these rights, Governments are instituted, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    But they are equal. They are all endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. Among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. To secure these rights, Governments are instituted, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.T Clark


    :up: , for the first part

    For the second part, :chin:
  • 180 Proof
    8.8k
    I would characterize Freddy Zarathustra as an advocate of Cultural (i.e. psychological-intellectual-artistic) Self-Mastery and not a defender of Civilizational (i.e. political economic) Slavery on the basis of his teaching of Übermenschen bred (cultivated) to, as second nature, joyfully affirm (overcome the challenge of) the Eternal Recurrence of the Same (Ja-sagen "amor fati") contra decadent resentment (i.e. Nein-sagen "spirit of gravity") – Dionysius versus The Crucified :fire:
  • Banno
    17.5k
    But they are equal. They are all endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. Among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.T Clark

    IS that the best folk can do in the face of autocracy? Quoting American mythology?

    I would characterize Freddy Zarathustra as an advocate of Cultural Self-Mastery and not a defender of Civilizational Slavery...180 Proof
    ...and yet time and again it is read as encourage the aristocratic nonsense of the OP. Time and again this is how it is read. Your view looks like special pleading.
  • 180 Proof
    8.8k
    Your view looks like special pleading.Banno
    Not to those who've studied Freddy's oeuvre. Mostly misread? You're unconvinced too? So much the better. :smirk:
    Life is fountain of joy; but where the rabble also gather to drink, all wells are poisoned. — Also Sprach Freddy Z
  • Joshs
    3.5k


    ...and yet time and again it is read as encourage the aristocratic nonsense of the OP. Time and again this is how it is read. Your view looks like special pleading.Banno

    Special pleasing my ass. You really need to improve the quality of the Nietzsche interpreters you read. I have a shelf full of brilliant Nietzsche scholarship and none of it spouts the crap you’re referring to.
  • Banno
    17.5k
    And yet there it is in the OP.

    I'll leave you to work on
    Special pleasing my assJoshs
    by yourself. I've no idea what your donkey likes.
  • frank
    10.9k
    and yet time and again it is read as encourage the aristocratic nonsense of the OP. Time and again this is how it is read. Your view looks like special pleading.Banno

    Name a Nietzsche scholar who reads it this way.
  • Banno
    17.5k
    Name a Nietzsche scholar who reads it this way.frank

    The point being it is read this way. See the OP.

    It's not the scholars that are the problem.
  • frank
    10.9k
    The point being it is read this way. See the OP.Banno

    It doesn't look like there was any reading of Nietzsche involved in the OP. I have no idea why his name was mentioned.
  • Banno
    17.5k
    And that is why your posts are of so little value. Look at the name of the thread.
  • frank
    10.9k
    And that is why your posts are of so little value. Look at the name of the thread.Banno

    :lol: OK. Forge ahead with your stuff there.
  • T Clark
    9.4k
    IS that the best folk can do in the face of autocracy? Quoting American mythology?Banno

    Typical smug, snotty, shallow response.
  • Banno
    17.5k
    So show me that I am wrong. Why, how, are we
    ...all endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. Among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.T Clark

    Why shouldn't the state
    ...keep the natural hierarchy in place to maintain the highest standard of art, philosophy, science in society and let everyone who is capable prove his worth.Wittgenstein

    and
    The elite class of society... enjoy greater rights and be allowed to get around the law as the culture is in greater need of them.Wittgenstein

    Can you present an argument? Or are we to rely on wishful thinking?
  • Outlander
    1.5k
    As long as the person can leave, even if that would surely result in death or a worse, less dignified life under a more cruel master (which is why such policies restricting movement were instituted in the first place), they are not slaves per se. Not any more so than anybody else. You could be the only person on Earth, and you'd still work and eat by the sweat on your brow. Unless you're in the Arctic.
  • Jackson
    1.7k
    The elite artists should fashion the taste of art in society and the common people should not be able to dictate the direction of art to the artist.Wittgenstein

    That is true now. Most people have no idea what artists are doing.
  • Jackson
    1.7k
    The elite class of society should enjoy greater rights and be allowed to get around the law as the culture is in greater need of them. A nation is defined and distinguished from others by its culture.Wittgenstein

    Let me know when that happens.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    ...we need a class of people who should not concern themselves with politics, science and philosophy. They should be trained to operate as mindless robotic cogs in the big industrial wheel.Wittgenstein

    This we already have. No need to advocate for slavery when we have Facebook.
  • Wittgenstein
    442


    I would characterize Freddy Zarathustra as an advocate of Cultural (i.e. psychological-intellectual-artistic) Self-Mastery and not a defender of Civilizational (i.e. political economic) Slavery on the basis of teaching of Übermenschen bred (cultivated) to, as second nature, joyfully affirm (overcome the challenge of) the Eternal Recurrence of the Same (Ja-sagen "amor fati") contra decadent resentment (i.e. Nein-sagen "spirit of gravity") – Dionysius versus The Crucified :fire:



    Special pleasing my ass. You really need to improve the quality of the Nietzsche interpreters you read. I have a shelf full of brilliant Nietzsche scholarship and none of it spouts the crap you’re referring to.

    All l did was present the less politically correct, the less pussified interpretation of Nietzsche. I don't understand why it comes as a surprise to so many people, that their dear Nietzsche didn't mind slavery. He was an elitist through and through, he abhorred enlightenment inspired egalitarianism. Cultural self mastery, whatever it means here, it's simply out of reach for the vast majority of people in society unless there's a class of great individuals ( eg Goethe, Napoleon ) who are in charge of shaping civilizational outlook and this requires civilizational slavery in parallel.

    Do you think a college professor will keep his job in this age if he spouts the elitist nonsense in my OP ? A few scholars have nevertheless dared to read Nietzsche as he ought to be read and l can drop their names in this thread but you will dismiss their interpretation.....
  • Agent Smith
    5.2k
    Life is fountain of joy; but where the rabble also gather to drink, all wells are poisoned.180 Proof

    :fire:
  • Tom Storm
    4.4k


    This is proving to be a fascinating thread. Seems that Nietzsche is still a source of acrimonious and contested views. I wish I could read him but I find his writing unpalatable. Even the easier aphoristic stuff. I guess like Heidegger and Derrida you need interpreters to discover what is really being said, right? Wish I had a better attention span.

    A few scholars have nevertheless dared to read Nietzsche as he ought to be read and l can drop their names in this thread but you will dismiss their interpretation.....Wittgenstein

    Please do, I'd be interested even if it results in a brawl over credibility.
  • Agent Smith
    5.2k
    A digression, nevertheless an interesting digression.

    Diogenes arrived in Athens with a slave named Manes who escaped from him shortly thereafter. With characteristic humor, Diogenes dismissed his ill fortune by saying, "If Manes can live without Diogenes, why not Diogenes without Manes?"

    According to a story which seems to have originated with Menippus of Gadara, Diogenes was captured by pirates while on voyage to Aegina and sold as a slave in Crete to a Corinthian named Xeniades. Being asked his trade, he replied that he knew no trade but that of governing men, and that he wished to be sold to a man who needed a master.
    — Wikipedia

    Slavery, in my humble opinion, in the long term, dehumanizes...both slaves and their masters. Not advisable, trust me. Hence, I suspect, the need among slavers to treat slaves as subhuman. Quite unfortunate. The bright side to slavery, acknowledging the immense suffering involved, is that modern civilization would've been impossible without the sacrifice of millions upon millions (nothing boosts the economy better than free labor).
  • Wittgenstein
    442


    If we should want to have a charitable look at the argument, maybe we should let the man speak for himself, since he did happen to make this exact argument in the greek state which boils down to this:

    1. Life, suffering etc, can ultimately only be justified through art.
    2. Slavery is necessary to enable a few to focus on creating said art.

    "In order that there may be a broad, deep, and fruitful soil for the development of art, the enormous majority must, in the service of a minority be slavishly subjected to life’s struggle, to a greater degree than their own wants necessitate. At their cost, through the surplus of their labor, that privileged class is to be relieved from the struggle for existence, in order to create and to
    satisfy a new world of want."

    Since 1) is essentially a value-judgement one maybe could just say that one doesn't care about art or high culture, and the rest of the argument looses its potency.

    1. Suffering, the camel stage in our journey to self actualization is only felt incredibly in the beginning, though its essence is carried to the next stages. Nietzsche was dealing with the death of religion as a meaning giving tool in society and the dreadful emptiness of nihilism. Art for Nietzsche was supposed to play the role of religion. High culture is required to replace something as powerful and comprehensive as religion. The mice can't pretend to not see the cat.....


    2) is more of a statement of fact that one could maybe discredit (or credit) on empirical grounds. Essentially he saying that 1) you need specialisation to be able to create good art 2) which requires that some are relieved from the daily struggle for existence 3) which in turn requires that a part of the population produces more/is forced to produce more than it needs for itself.

    Maybe this could be true in ancient times, like Greece, but certainly this isn't true anymore in fossil-fueled post-industrialised societies. Because of the amount of energy per capita we have access to, we essentially have all the energy slaves we want, Energy can be translated directly into work, which basically could free up almost everybody to produce art if we wanted to.

    2. I think you have missed the point. He didn't approve of egalitarianism as a value. Economic pragmatism of slavery wasn't a neccessary "evil" to him, it wasn't only a means to achieve high culture but an essential feature of any society which prized high culture. While slavery isn't making a return, we can avoid getting into the economics part of the argument and use Nietzschean elitist framework to undermine democracy, social activism, social security nets, employee rights, discrimination laws and every idea/practise in society which gives shape to an egalitarian outlook.
  • 180 Proof
    8.8k
    All you did was present a more intellectually incorrect (i.e. uninformed / dishonest) interpretation of N. No doubt, you're a belated student (acolyte) of Prof. Alfred Bäumler and his faux-nietzscheanism? :roll:
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.1k
    2. I think you have missed the point.Wittgenstein

    Maybe, then again maybe you are also missing a point if you think you can neatly untangle instrumental and intrinsic valuation in Nietzsche. As the philosopher with a hammer he saw his task as sounding out ideals/values (yes it was a sounding hammer, not a sledge hammer) to see whether they where ultimately hollow, or whether there indeed was something to them.

    Part of sounding out a value like equality is looking at it from multiple perspective, which typically would include also looking at what said value ultimately entails practically in a society, or in a person. Sure he didn't like equality, but I don't think you can't separate out his 'pure' distaste of the value equality from its material, practical and economic consequences. I think all of that is locked into his perspectival evaluation of it.
  • Wittgenstein
    442


    Check the work of Julian Young, Brian Lieter, Thomas Hurka.If l get the opportunity , l will collect a list of all scholars with reference, past and present who share the same interpretation of Nietzsche as me
  • unenlightened
    6.6k
    The UK queen devotes herself to serving the people her whole life; politicians only serve a term or two, and civil servants merely 9 to 5 weekdays, soldiers serve for a few years. Anyone who is not a servant at all is of very little value. Musicians, artists and sportsmen have a little entertainment value; philosophers are not even interesting for the most part, and invariably misleading. If you will not serve, you are a waste of space.
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