There are very few you think can be called a "Man" in the world, it seems. — Ciceronianus

As I said, it is an ideal to strive for. Like Christians want to be like Jesus, but it doesn't mean any of them would really get there.

I think these are decent ideals, but only given certain goals, and by no means do I think any of them are necessary. You used the word "must" a lot. I think may" or "could" is probably better, especially since you're literally talking about having a flexible worldview.

I think men should listen to women a little more tbh, and I (am guessing) their strategy would tend to be a little more intuitive.

Kipling's If is a pretty inspirational, and beautiful poem if you ask me, but I would personally be hesitant about sticking to it as though it was a scripture or something. I would almost certainly rebel against my father if he was always insistent upon having such high expectations of me. Not the end of the world, but yeah, in my personal perspective there's gotta be a little more room for humor, uncertainty, reflextivity, accepting weakness, and more "feminine" wisdoms.

If it's about all manliness, its one thing to have the warrior, creative heart of a masculine hero (that's cool enough don't get me wrong) but its another thing to be willing to forgo the dignity and glory that comes with being a warrior, and just kind be there and do stupid chores with your dorky friends or annoying family instead. Depends on what's actually more needed I guess.

Also! You never mention love. Yeah, I think that's my problem. Love is a very notable omission.

I made a list of what traits one should have to be able to call himself a Man. — stoicHoneyBadger

Not a list of traits one should have to be able to call himself an ideal Man, you see. I wonder what list of traits one should have to call himself "Jesus."

If it's about all manliness, its one thing to have the warrior, creative heart of a masculine hero (that's cool enough don't get me wrong) but its another thing to be willing to forgo the dignity and glory that comes with being a warrior, and just kind be there and do stupid chores with your dorky friends or annoying family instead. Depends on what's actually more needed I guess.

Also! You never mention love. Yeah, I think that's my problem. Love is a very notable omission. — SatmBopd

Yes, of course. I just took those things, like love and friendship for granted, so I didn't include them in the list. )

The fact that you are so sure you do is just patriarchy at work.
— Possibility

And what's wrong with that? — stoicHoneyBadger

Aside from myopic, ignorant and destructive...

I do not see decadence, i.e. loosing standards, as a positive thing, rather as a potentially deadly illness of a civilization.

Of course girls need to have a good character, etc., but in general traits see as positive in a man and in a woman are very different. — stoicHoneyBadger

Valuing the intelligence, strength and experience of women as much as men is not decadence or a ‘deadly illness’. I’m fully aware that men and women in general are not the same. But in general, positive traits are positive traits, whether in a man or a woman. Aside from patriarchal references to violence and dominance, your OP list of traits is equally applicable to women, and many posters here have said so.

So why do you continue to insist on different treatment, and quibble about girls needing to adhere to some ‘standard’ of feminine attractiveness in order to get dates? And what on earth is ‘a good character’, if not open-mindedness, courage, self-control and creative thinking? Sounds like you’re stuck in the 19th century, to me. Time to re-evaluate your axioms.

I'm from eastern Europe and what I see going on in US, Canada, UK, etc. is perceived not as progress, but as madness. So we clearly have no desire to join this lunacy, we'd better stay with Poland, the Czech republic, Ukraine, etc.

It seems that civilizations go the same life cycle as people. First you are an infant, than a confused teenager, at some point you become a productive adult, but than inevitably turn senile and die. So all this 'gender neutral' stuff is as progressive as a progressing dementia. ;) — stoicHoneyBadger

My country elected Trump as its leader several years ago so yeah, something’s rotten in Denmark, but it ain’t dementia. When I look at history though, I’m left wondering at what point there existed “a productive adult.”

My country elected Trump as its leader several years ago so yeah, something’s rotten in Denmark, but it ain’t dementia. When I look at history though, I’m left wondering at what point there existed “a productive adult.” — praxis

And what was wrong with Trump beyond slightly cringy tweets? Gas prices were low, no wars, even forced the little rocket man to sign peace.

Yet people were brainwashed into believing that "orange man bad", elected a senile pedophile instead, who closed the pipeline, gave Afghanistan to terrorists, and wanted to give Ukraine to Putin by saying he will not intervene multiple times.

Sounds like you’re stuck in the 19th century, to me. Time to re-evaluate your axioms. — Possibility

I think you are just looking at the world through some feminist lens, trying to find things to feel offended about.

So America was a productive adult only a couple of years ago. :lol:

So America was a productive adult only a couple of years ago. :lol: — praxis

Probably its most productive times were somewhere in 50-60s. Now it seems to be in a slow, yet steady decline.

I think you are just looking at the world through some feminist lens, trying to find things to feel offended about. — stoicHoneyBadger

Sure, slap that ‘feminist’ label on and dismiss my perspective as emotional. Looks like you’re reaching for your last resort there. Having trouble formulating a reasoned response, are we?

Probably its most productive times were somewhere in 50-60s. Now it seems to be in a slow, yet steady decline. — stoicHoneyBadger

You must mean the civil rights movement, yes, I agree that was a productive time. :smile:

Btw...

Gas prices were low, no wars, — stoicHoneyBadger

How exactly did Biden single handedly raise gas prices across the globe, if that's what you're suggesting? And no wars during the Trump administration???

How exactly did Biden single handedly raise gas prices across the globe, if that's what you're suggesting? And no wars during the Trump administration??? — praxis

By blocking the construction of the keystone pipeline and revoking numerous off and on shore and drilling permits. Lower supply = higher price.

What wars did Trump start or encourage?

I'm from eastern Europe and what I see going on in US, Canada, UK, etc. is perceived not as progress, but as madness. So we clearly have no desire to join this lunacy, we'd better stay with Poland, the Czech republic, Ukraine, etc. — stoicHoneyBadger

I'm an old man now, and the years of striving as a boy and young man are ancient history. Your ideals are yours to pursue, and as far as I can tell, they are good.

No doubt that some of what you see going on in Europe and North America not only has the appearance of craziness, some of it actually is crazy. We might not agree on the list of things that only "look like crazy" and "really are crazy". May I suggest that some of what has gone on in Eastern Europe (and the rest of the world) also looks like crazy, and some of it actually is crazy. Madness of this sort is never too far away, anywhere.

It seems to me that not very long ago in Eastern Europe, and a little less recently in Western Europe and North America, 'peasant' men and women both worked in the fields digging, plowing, planting, hoeing, and harvesting. Men and women alike have worked in heavy construction and factory work. Both sexes had to have thick legs, strong backs, and broad shoulders to do this work. Thanks to mechanization of work, one now has to spend time doing artificial work (exercise) to maintain a fit body. Women can afford to have some sort of Parisian or Hollywood ideal shape, since they won't be digging any ditches in the near future. Some men still do enough physical labor to maintain a strong body. But most men are not doing physical labor.

You know all this, of course. And you know that all this came about through impersonal large-scale social and technological processes, not just in North America and the UK, but also in Eastern Europe. When the old, stable systems of the past fall apart, people sort of 'go crazy' trying to find a new stable center. The more difficult that is, the more madness there is. Some of these vast changes result in beneficial liberation from the past.

On balance, most people prefer being liberated from the drudgery of labor, the heavy hand of Church and State, and (often) suffocating tradition. Those are replaced by the equally heavy hand of the capitalist establishment, Yes, it is true that liberated people sometimes go to extremes in politics; the norms for public decorum may fall so low so that it seems like "anything goes". Education deteriorates because employers need fewer well-rounded educated and knowledgeable people. Indeed, too many well-rounded, educated, and knowledgable workers are a nuisance to employers. Nothing but trouble!

You have the singular misfortune of "living during interesting times", as the proverbial Chinese curse goes. Best wishes to you and your family; I hope everything works out well for you.

You have the singular misfortune of "living during interesting times", as the proverbial Chinese curse goes. Best wishes to your family; I hope everything works out well for you, — Bitter Crank

Thank you. I guess living in such times is very interesting. On one hand you see Ukraine basically raising from the ashed and, probably, would become a new world leader, together with Poland and such. On the other you see the old world superpowers deteriorating. Truly fascinating time to live in! :)

By blocking the construction of the keystone pipeline and revoking numerous off and on shore and drilling permits. Lower supply = higher price. — stoicHoneyBadger

Yeah, that must be it. The pandemic had nothing to do with it.

What wars did Trump start or encourage? — stoicHoneyBadger

You said "no wars" and I didn't know what that meant.

You said "no wars" and I didn't know what that meant. — praxis

That Trump did not start any wars and did not betray any allies.

eah, that must be it. The pandemic had nothing to do with it. — praxis

Compare the prices during Trump and Biden.

Fair enough.

That Trump did not start any wars and did not betray any allies. — stoicHoneyBadger

The Kurds come to mind.

Compare the prices during Trump and Biden. — stoicHoneyBadger

The price of oil got too low during the lockdowns due to lack of demand. That had repercussions not immediately felt. I’ve read that there is a Goldilocks zone in the price of oil.

That Trump did not start any wars and did not betray any allies. — stoicHoneyBadger

Trump was too busy betraying the American people.

Trump was too busy betraying the American people. — Bitter Crank

Could you be more specific here? As I see it, his only fault was that he underestimated the enemy. He had 4 years in office and instead of ensuring his loyal people are places in positions of power, he kept calling each other names with some cnn journalist.

By blocking the construction of the keystone pipeline and revoking numerous off and on shore and drilling permits. Lower supply = higher price. — stoicHoneyBadger

There were very strong environmental reasons to block the Keystone pipeline. The biggest reason is that Keystone would carry the "dirtiest possible" oil from the Canadian tar sands fields. The tar sands are a mix of sand, clay water, and a type of thick oil. The mix has to be either dug up like coal, and then heated to extract the oil. Or steam has to be pumped underground. Extraction thus uses more energy than pumping oil or fracking.

It's not a great source of oil, but it is the only oil Canada has got, so... they dig it up.

Rather than working hard to scrape the bottom of the oil barrel, we should be working harder to replace fossil fuels with wind, solar, and nuclear. (Seems to me that most hydropower potential is already tapped) AND reducing use of energy across the board.

Global warming is real; we have just about run out of time to avoid ever worsening consequences.

I'm sure that it wasn't your intention cause I have seen other posts of you and the way you express your opinions, but this one is full of racist social stereotypes.The "smell" of them is all over. Stereotypes that societies must and will overcome one day in the future. I have faith on it.

You seem like a clever person so I hope that if you go on digging yourself, you will understand it also one day.
By the way despite I find many of what you mentioned in that thread totally wrong, I think you will raise a social useful person in general. No one can be perfect at the end. The average outcome will be fine.

Could you be more specific here? As I see it, his only fault was that he underestimated the enemy. He had 4 years in office and instead of ensuring his loyal people are places in positions of power, he kept calling each other names with some cnn journalist. — stoicHoneyBadger

"Stoic"?

Could you be more specific here? — stoicHoneyBadger

Trump was a crook before he was elected. Tax fraud was his specialty. He violated numerous laws before and during his presidency.

He withdrew from the Paris Climate Accord. The Paris Accords are inadequate and have been ignored around the world, but his reasons were his loyalty to Republican energy interests and climate crisis denial.

He engaged in potentially damaging relationships with Vladimir Putin (potentially treasonous).

He encouraged insurrection on January 6, 2021. This was an extremely serious illegal act for a sitting president. It was an attempt to prevent Congress from ratifying the election of his opponent.

Since leaving office, he has yet to acknowledge that he lost the election, and has been working with Republican Party operatives to make it easier to falsify election results and at the same time limit the number of voters who might vote for the opposing party.

and so on and so forth. I am trying to forget his term in office.

Presidents in general are not reliable truth tellers (not because they are morally deficient, but because of political necessity and expedience) but he set a new low for deceit and misrepresentation that we had not seen since Richard Nixon (forced to resign in 1974).

EDIT: He further betrayed the American people by being the incompetent narcissistic buffoon that a majority of the population thought he would be.

As I said, it is an ideal to strive for. Like Christians want to be like Jesus, but it doesn't mean any of them would really get there. — stoicHoneyBadger

If it is so extraordinarily difficult to achieve an ideal, such that no one does, then these types do not actually exist. If they do not exist, we do not know what "ideal" types would actually be like.

We know what 'real people' are like. We prefer some people, and some types of people, to others. Better than aiming for the unattainable, aim for the highly desirable types that you can and do know,

My father was a rural boy who grew up to be a very responsible and intelligent person, father of 7 children, a good husband, a devout Christian, a consistent and persistent worker and provider for his family. He was not an athlete; he was not an intellectual. He was a good, kind, decent man--a real type you, I, your son, or anybody else could become like.

We all know people we don't like, don't admire, and who we do not want to imitate. These people are not the antitheses of ideal types. They are just real people we do not find admirable.

Well, genders clearly have their differences, such as you wouldn't want to take your daughter to boxing and weightlifting. :)

Of course. Boys would benefit from boxing & weightlifting. Girls certainly not so much. :) so probably swimming or jiujitsu would do better. — stoicHoneyBadger

Actually she did do some, as well as karate. Why should that be a boy only sport?

Be willing to increase awareness over ignorance, connection over isolation and collaboration over exclusion, at every opportunity. — Possibility


I guess it is very situation dependent and probably should be goal orientated. i.e. you don't want to include random people just for the sake of it. — stoicHoneyBadger

I guess that I still have a bit of the hippy in me, I think that as long as a person has not done something to deserve different treatment (criminals etc.) then everyone should be treated the same. Love and respect for all, no matter the situation.

Not sure being overly fearful is a good idea, thought... — stoicHoneyBadger

So it is alright for the freaking idiots to climb high buildings to take selfies? To be fearful of danger does not mean to just run away from it, but to take precautions when in dangerous situations. And not do stupid things for fun.

Why would you use such a derogatory term towards women? — stoicHoneyBadger

That is the way a lot of people see girls, they should not do the things that boys do, they should stay home and have kids. Just the attitude you are showing.

Do you let your kid wear pink clothes if he wants to? — Sir2u


Of course not. — stoicHoneyBadger

But why not? Is it because of your beliefs about the world or is there another reason. Pink is a color, like so many others, why should a person that wants to wear pink clothes not be allowed to? I have several pink shirts, do you think it makes me less of a man?

That's how my parents raised me, to be honest not the best approach, as it takes time to figure things out. — stoicHoneyBadger

That is what you have a life for, to figure out what to do with it. Is there really any time limit involved? And most things that need to be figured out cannot be taught by someone else, it is a self learning process.

Like understanding that you need boxing and starting to learn it when you're almost 40 is harder, than when you're 10. ) — stoicHoneyBadger

Jeez, do you really think anyone is dumb enough not to figure out that they need to learn boxing until they are 40? And what if was true, it might be harder to do but if it is something they need to do them they will do it.

I am sure I can answer for most men. If you prefer dudes, or at least girls that look like dudes, well, that's up to you. — stoicHoneyBadger

So women should look all soft and cuddly? And be bloody useless so that she has to depend on men to defend her. Well, I am so glad you do not speak for me.
But why should a women that likes to do a bit of boxing have to look like a man? Obviously there are some women that go to extremes about such things and do have a lot of obvious muscles but not all are like that.

I would say that the merits of boxing is
1. not being afraid of a physical altercation.
2. in case of such, being able to knock out your opponent and the confidence that comes with it. — stoicHoneyBadger

My daughter could probably kick the shit out of me or any other regular guy, but you would never guess that by looking at her.
But she still fears danger. Boxing and karate taught her to avoid physical altercations, not to enjoy them. It taught her the discipline necessary to avoid problems. And her confidence comes from knowing she can defend herself, not from having done it.

You come from a country that has long suffered from the myth of male dominance and by teaching your kids these ideas you are doing at least two very bad things.
1. perpetuating stupidity and the concept of male dominance
2. setting life long limits on the range of reasoning and adaptability for the kids

It looks like, quite naturally, we see people as having 3 components:

1. The Mind: A person must be rational (IQ)

2. The Heart: A person must understand feelings, how to manipulate use 'em (EQ).

3. The Body: A person must be physically fit, in the best of bodily health for their age (PQ¹, physical quotient or the more traditional BMI, Body Mass Index).

A unisex idol to be emulated by men & women!


1. PQ: How your physical wellness measures up to a person of your age in peak form.

1. The Mind: A person must be rational (IQ) — Agent Smith

Yes and not. ) seems that logic and reason can only work withing some axiomatic system which itself if neither logical nor reasonable. We ( people, civilization ) just pick some axioms and act as if they are true and build all our logic from there.

1. PQ: How your physical wellness measures up to a person of your age in peak form. — Agent Smith

I'd say about average. Had let it go a bit when the gyms were closed, not getting back on track. Routine, breathing exercises, cold showers, running...

Actually she did do some, as well as karate. Why should that be a boy only sport? — Sir2u

Not necessary, but still there are body and goal differences between boys and girls, which need to be taken into account.

So it is alright for the freaking idiots to climb high buildings to take selfies? To be fearful of danger does not mean to just run away from it, but to take precautions when in dangerous situations. And not do stupid things for fun. — Sir2u

than I'd call it 'reasonable caution'.

That is the way a lot of people see girls, they should not do the things that boys do, they should stay home and have kids. Just the attitude you are showing. — Sir2u

You seem to be taking it our of proportion. Yet still there are some traditions that probably should not be neglected. Like why would you think that building a career is better, than having kids?

But why not? Is it because of your beliefs about the world or is there another reason. Pink is a color, like so many others, why should a person that wants to wear pink clothes not be allowed to? I have several pink shirts, do you think it makes me less of a man? — Sir2u

Depends on situation, context, etc. Like would you encourage your son to weak wife's high heels to school? Why not, those are just shoes. :)

You come from a country that has long suffered from the myth of male dominance and by teaching your kids these ideas you are doing at least two very bad things.
1. perpetuating stupidity and the concept of male dominance
2. setting life long limits on the range of reasoning and adaptability for the kids — Sir2u

I think you are kinda taking things out of context here. Like I say "boys should learn boxing" you replay with "aaa! you wants to leave the girls defenseless!"... wft.